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Uncanny X-Men #19

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Blackcyclops
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Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Jun 2019, 12:08

Emma’s involvement and activities are revealed.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by UrbanExplorer » 05 Jun 2019, 13:48

Nooooooooooo
Spoiler: show
R.I.P. Vanisher
This is sooo making me angry :(

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by hotknives » 05 Jun 2019, 14:22

Ah,
Spoiler: show
poor Vanisher
. So soon after inexplicably returning from the dead. I'm sure it won't be the last we see of them - Emma does have Elixir on side after all.

This was interesting - it felt a little muddled to me, but it's nice to see Emma in charge - intrigued to see what happens next time.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by das_boot » 05 Jun 2019, 19:18

I’m really not sure how I feel about this issue...
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by InsipidLust » 05 Jun 2019, 20:40

I kind of like this but on the other hand I kind of hate it. It moved too quickly, and the deaths are growing increasingly pointless and irritating.

The one thing I will say is that while I have enjoyed this run, the bleakness is beginning to bum me out.

I hope Emma is able to outsmart her enemies but we'll see.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Jun 2019, 21:27

InsipidLust wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 20:40
I kind of like this but on the other hand I kind of hate it. It moved too quickly, and the deaths are growing increasingly pointless and irritating.

The one thing I will say is that while I have enjoyed this run, the bleakness is beginning to bum me out.

I hope Emma is able to outsmart her enemies but we'll see.

Setting aside the death of Vanisher, I don’t think the problem isn’t necessarily the actual speed of the story but the feel of the speed of the story. Like there’s been great “catch you up to speed with 1 character” style stories but this one just felt “too” fast. The art didn’t help either. If this was an Annual with like 40 pages and covered the same ground (drawn by like Phil Noto or Jim cheung), I think this would be a great story. We see Emma as a kind of hero of the story here...she isn’t a bad guy here. Just not one of the X-Men...she showed concern for Dani and I could just read more Emma and Marrow doing a Devil Wears Prada lol...
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by das_boot » 05 Jun 2019, 23:46

Insipid’s hit the nail on the head for me here. I shouldn’t feel as though every issue I open is going to introduce s returning character just to kill them off.

Also, I DID genuinely love Rosenberg’s Sinister, especially his almost casual acceptance that he momentarily questioned his sexuality over Mys America
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Jun 2019, 00:20

Speaking of, so we’re not going to talk about Sinister and Mystique as a thing? Because while 90s (except on the cartoon) and 80s Sinister is boring, Post-Gillen Sinister is kinda hot..so him and Mystique might be the hottest thing I’ve thought about in an X-Men comic in like a decade lol
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Fenix » 06 Jun 2019, 00:26

I had some issues with the story.
My first issue is that we had a great set up at the end of Xmen Blue with Magneto and his new Brotherhood which included Exodus, Marrow, Toad, Elixir, Marrow, Unuscione and Briar.
Magneto got kidnapped in Uncanny and converted by Xman into his horseman but the rest of the Brotherhood pretty much stayed behind during the whole storyline.
While I dont see Emma recruiting Exodus it would have been interesting to see what happened with the Brotherhood and a meeting between Emma and Exodus could have given us some moments. What happened to Toad, Exodus and Unuscione?

Also, It would seem quite legit if Emma had taken more time looking for missing Xmen, she has been one of the big ones consistently for around 15 years and a leader figure, IvX didnt displace her from the mutants' interest and recruiting Blindfold, Chamber or Hope would have been totally normal.
Much more than recruiting Mystique.

I know she got the one shot Xmen Black and she took the mantle as Black King (well...) and this has been followed up, I just wonder why some other stuff hasnt.

Anyway, another dead character and its beyond pointless.
I wonder what is the deal with these deaths, It doesnt make sense Marvel is allowing so many deaths prior to such a massive relaunch...

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by gfhq2002 » 06 Jun 2019, 04:51

Adventures in Poor Taste has a weekly X-Men Monday’s segment, and I recall Jordan White a few weeks ago explaining (way off panel ik) that the Brotherhood fell into chaos following Magneto’s abduction, with some staying and some going. I suppose Exodus, Unuscione and Briar stayed.

Toad has been seen, in his new costume, as one of the animal themed villains captured by Kraven in Amazing Spider-Man and again in this run as a member of the even newer Brotherhood.

Vanisher didn’t just return in this series. He inexplicably cane back from his “death” in Second Coming during Marjorie Liu’s Astonishing X run as a member of the The Marauders. He then popped up as transo for Juggernaut in Amazing X-Men and then as a vibranium thief in Black Panther more recently.

My chief complaint with this issue is hearing that Cassandra Nova didn’t put up much of a fight while being captured by the ONE. Even after X-Men Red 11, I cant see her letting some Warlock’d New Mutants take her down

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Fenix » 06 Jun 2019, 11:14

gfhq2002 wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 04:51
Adventures in Poor Taste has a weekly X-Men Monday’s segment, and I recall Jordan White a few weeks ago explaining (way off panel ik) that the Brotherhood fell into chaos following Magneto’s abduction, with some staying and some going. I suppose Exodus, Unuscione and Briar stayed.

Toad has been seen, in his new costume, as one of the animal themed villains captured by Kraven in Amazing Spider-Man and again in this run as a member of the even newer Brotherhood.

Vanisher didn’t just return in this series. He inexplicably cane back from his “death” in Second Coming during Marjorie Liu’s Astonishing X run as a member of the The Marauders. He then popped up as transo for Juggernaut in Amazing X-Men and then as a vibranium thief in Black Panther more recently.

My chief complaint with this issue is hearing that Cassandra Nova didn’t put up much of a fight while being captured by the ONE. Even after X-Men Red 11, I cant see her letting some Warlock’d New Mutants take her down
you mean Emma, right?

From a logic point of view Guido himself is around class75 strong and able to absorb kinetic energy, while Emma is like class2 while in diamond form, making her extremely weak in a physicall fight against him.
Then her telepathy which would be her normal way to overpower the whole set of mutants easily and effortlessly... I think while infected with Warlock they are "alien" and we know telepaths have issues with alien minds. We dont really know how badly that interfered with her powers.
And also we could see how totally surprised she was seeing Karma or Moonstar like this, over the years she has grown quite attached to many X-teams and persons, she spent a lot of time with Dani and Xi'an during the whole New X-men Academy, New X-Men and further New Mutants/Utopia/San Francisco eras.
Seeing them like this and not knowing exactly what to do makes Emma quite more human than we have seen her in a long time.

Yet the deadpool keeps increasing and there are some plot holes here and there moving the story and making me wonder where is this going to and how is this going to be fixed, if possible.
Somehow it reminds me of Heroes in Crisis but worse as some of the characters dying here are favourites, not exactly Z-list characters.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Jun 2019, 11:28

That’s perspective: Guido, Rahne and Chamber could be seen as z-listers too...same as Tattooed Man, Commander Steel and Arsenal (who’s profile is definitely not z-list)...
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by das_boot » 06 Jun 2019, 12:24

@Fenix— I wouldn’t necessarily see it as strength levels... I’m pretty sure Emma’s lifting strength isn’t vastly increased in diamond form, but things like crushing strength and force of impact of her blows are greatly enhanced due to her being mostly unbreakable and more dense in her diamond form. The force of a diamond punch directly to the jaw would likely be enough to stun someone of even Strong Guy’s strength...

That said, it’s all conjecture. We largely see Emma using her diamond form to avoid damage and throw punches but I can’t remember an incident off-hand where we saw her actually do any kind of heavy-lifting in diamond form.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 06 Jun 2019, 16:19

This was Rosenberg's best issue, if only by elimination. Most of Emma's actions make sense- except making Scott forget her, that's just stupid, even if they can't work together right now.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by gfhq2002 » 06 Jun 2019, 16:48

@fenix

No, I meant Cassandra Nova. Emma received a bouquet and note from Callahan thanking her for her intel on Cassandra Nova, who he said didn’t put up much of a fight when the ONE came for her.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Magnus » 06 Jun 2019, 17:55

For the issue itself, I agree with the general feeling that it's moving a bit too quickly, or at least feels a bit jumpy. It definitely got stronger at the end though, and I especially love the way Sinister's being written. Art was rough.

As for all the revelations/events:
- Like others, I was disappointed for Vanisher to get offed immediately after showing up, but at this point I'm pretty much figuring all the deaths will be undone.
- So it turns out that Anole giving away Beast's 'cure' serum was due to Emma, whether it was her actually mind-controlling him or just convincing/ordering him (or maybe a bit of both?) is unclear. I suppose I welcome the retcon from one angle since I never bought that Anole would be the sort of guy to do that, but it also robs his big speech to Hank of import.
- Emma sent the Marauders after Blindfold? I suppose you can make the argument that she's not "responsible" for her death (not expecting Blindfold would kill herself first, or that the Marauders would kill her instead of just capturing her) but... still, damn.
- As for Cassandra Nova, that one stuck out to me a bit as well, but who knows how out of it she is since X-Men Red.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by EphemeristX » 06 Jun 2019, 19:17

I'd posit the idea that Anole's speech was Emma's doing as well. If he didn't have a convincing reason, Beast would immediately have thought it was mind control -- something I'm sure Emma didn't want. So, not only did she coerce Anole, she planted a seed of reasoning in there as well.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Jun 2019, 19:28

I took Nova not putting up a fight purely as giving up
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Magnus » 07 Jun 2019, 02:33

Blackcyclops wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 19:28
I took Nova not putting up a fight purely as giving up
Yeah it wouldn't surprise me if she was still in her "I've done terrible things, I won't fight, I deserve whatever you do to me" mode.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Quick and Dead » 07 Jun 2019, 08:28

I enjoyed this issue for what it was. Emma seems very much back on track.

As a big fan of the Morrison era, I hate seeing Wolverine and Emma's friendship deteriorate to a simple "I hate you." I'm assuming he was informed of her IvX shenanigans and I won't say it's out of character for Logan to be angry over them but I would've liked to see Logan allow her to tell her side. Who has time for all that though...

I also would've liked to have seen whatever went down with Nova happen on panel. I would think Cassandra warrants more than a throwaway line.

I'm getting accustomed to seeing new groups of established mutants forming together as new teams but never getting any depth whatsoever. When I saw Emma's Hellfire Club, I thought it was a cool lineup but I instantly knew we wouldn't be provided any motivations or reasoning on how and why they banded together. Just feels like theres a lot of characters being chosen out of hats these days for these types of things.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Fenix » 07 Jun 2019, 17:16

@das_boot: Physically Guido could overpower Emma at all times, he is like Shaw and can absorb kinetic energy to increase his strenght. So no matter how hard is Emma's diamong skin, it would be hard if not impossible for her to take him down in normal conditions.

@Blackcyclops: Well, you are right, this or that character can be considered Z-List depending on who you ask. While I wouldnt consider Arsenal, Commander Steel or Nemesis Z-List characters others like Protector, Gunfire or even Red Devil would fall in that category, I loved Red Devil in Teen Titans post Infinite Crisis yet he only had that period and went off to limbo...
Guido, Chamber or Wolfsbane may not be Wolverine or Cyclops amongst the X-Men but they have been consistently in books (Guido jumped from New Mutants to Uncanny to X-Factor and then New Mutants Dead Souls/Uncanny which is lots of "screen time", the same could be said from Wolfsbane as she has been one of the main characters in New Mutants, then X-Factor, New Mutants/New X-Men and then X-Factor/X-Force/X-Factor/New Mutants Dead Souls...)
However Gabriel (Velocidad) or Loa could fall in that list.
What Im trying to say is that Rosenberg is killing way too many characters, nearly every issue somebody bites the dust and this kind of "cleaning of the house" is more likely to happen in an event like Age of Apocalypse than in a regular comic book.
I dont know, I keep thinking this is going to be reset somehow, that they are playing a similar game to when Surge and Hellion were killed off in X-Force or Rogue/Scarlet Witch/Wonder Man or Captain America (and the whole Earth) in Uncanny Avengers and we couldnt believe it...
Fingers crossed.

@Quick and Death: Emma has fallen from grace and the X-Men in general just behave "nice" to her when convenient. It doesnt make sense as she, as character, deserves much better than that.
In a world where most of the X-men are gone Emma should be a reference and leader figure most of the remaining mutants should be looking at.
I take X-Force is away and people tend to think they are dead too but every New Xmen student, former Generation X, New Mutant or occasional associate to the X-men should have searched for protection and help in Emma Frost.
I dont see why Chamber, Velocidad, Blindfold or Loa wouldnt go to her. Considering Sunspot own time as White King of the Hellfire Club I wonder why he didnt join her also. What about Hope and Banshee? Hope and Emma didnt really have any issue and were part of the utopia/extintion era, and Banshee was really fond of Emma too.
I know this is the set up and we have to chew it but it feels very forced and convenient for the plot.
Imagine that Emma had recruited his own "X-Men" even if she called them Hellions or whatever she fancied.
A team with Hope, Banshee, Madrox, Mystique, Sunspot, Chamber, Marrow, Vanisher and Elixir... go further, Imagine she even recruits the MFL, Exodus/Unuscione/Amelia Voght; imagine she even convinces Dark Beast to join her, or they rescue Havok and the New Mutants instead of Scott and Wolverine...
I loved that Cyclops came back, the first issue (Uncanny #11) made me shiver and smile when Logan and Scott reunited but I cant stop thinking the story should have gone in a different way more like "The quest for the X-men" as Forge and Banshee did decades ago showing us two different storylines with Emma on one side and Scott/Logan on the other, both trying to gather a team of X-men with different goals each, even classing and joining at the end just prior to the end of Age of Xman and whatever Hickman has in plans.
Im not sure im enjoying seeing so many bodies anymore or where this story is heading to, no matter if Hickman moves on and ignores conveniently whatever he wants as Morrison did.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by InsipidLust » 07 Jun 2019, 17:52

Fenix, almost everyone you named actively hates or distrusts Emma Frost... and the New X-Men kids would probably not be eager to ally themselves with someone who, as far as they likely knew, committed an act of mass murder literally like four months ago in their time.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 07 Jun 2019, 22:10

Quick and Dead wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 08:28
I enjoyed this issue for what it was. Emma seems very much back on track.

As a big fan of the Morrison era, I hate seeing Wolverine and Emma's friendship deteriorate to a simple "I hate you." I'm assuming he was informed of her IvX shenanigans and I won't say it's out of character for Logan to be angry over them but I would've liked to see Logan allow her to tell her side. Who has time for all that though....
The hate might have more to do with Schism and AvX non-sense, though, and also Bendis' run afterwards where Logan would be more than happy to kill her and Scott off if came to it.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by Cable » 08 Jun 2019, 16:21

Every character death has been done with a clear purpose. People just get mad about them because X-fans want every X-character in every book every time. There are 1000 mutants and we want to see all of them always. I would rather get a meaningful death for a character than have them show up in splash pages every now and then. Yeah I would rather they be in the cast too but they simply all can't. For a character death the writer shouldn't have to make up someone new and kill them off that we and the characters have no emotional attachment to. But X-fans will get mad at any established characters death. Crosta will be killed next and people would be pissed that such a character with potential was killed even though he hasn't been in a comic in the past 7 years and there are 300 other student characters.

But this is the weakest issue of the run yet. I have liked what Rosenberg is doing but this issue reveals significant parts of it to be kind of phony.
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Re: Uncanny X-Men #19

Post by InsipidLust » 10 Jun 2019, 17:35

As I have been thinking about this issue, I think the thing that bothers me the most (besides it feeling too fast in some ways) is just how much Rosenberg's story seems almost self-serving. I don't know how to explain my discomfort and pretty much any writer could be accused of this, but, like...

Rosenberg's work seems to reference itself and little else, and his take on the X-Men is decidedly brutal... I was thinking that maybe all of the deaths we've seen would be fake-outs (I was willing to bet that Emma was somehow manipulating the X-Men.. and I was right, but not to the extent that I thought). Now, based on what I know of Rosenberg's habits as a writer, I think all of these characters are in fact dead-dead, and that's kind of a tough pill to swallow although I'm inclined to agree that I'd rather see characters die (meaningful) deaths than be used as decorative wallpaper.

I can appreciate his playing the long game here but this issue's bleakness, perhaps for the first time since like IVX, left me with a weird feeling that I still can't wrap my head around. I felt the same way about Rosenberg's X-Men annual.

Also, Emma being this manipulative, brutal and willing to risk lives / make sacrifices in the name of the greater good is what i've always imagined for the character if she was in this position rather than an X-Man, and this is probably how she would be in real life rather than super-hero world, but the things she did in this issue—while justifiable—are despicable in a way that I feel like the X-Men's long-standing antipathy toward her is finally and fully justified.
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