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Avengers 4

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sambadaemon
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by sambadaemon » 29 Apr 2019, 16:25

Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:14
tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:10
So, at this point, is it kind of a given that Gamora isn't in Guardians 3? Unless they make the weird decision to have a movie that comes out almost two years after the movie with her death take place BEFORE that. At that point will the Guardians ever catch up to the MCU? That would mean they'd forever be stuck quite a few years behind the main timeline.
sambadaemon wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 15:51
I must have missed something significant in the movie, since there was so much. What "2 words" are you guys talking about?
I'm not sure why we're spoiler tagging the line when it's clearly the most recognizable phrase connected to the Avengers, but I'm going with "Avengers Assemble" at this point.
Based on the end of Endgame, I predict GotG3 will be Asguardians of the Galaxy, with Thor. Whether the movie will include young Gamora, I do not know. That was left unclear. But I don’t think there’s any reason to expect it will be a prequel to Infinity War. So if they’re going to include Gamora, it’ll either be young Gamora or the story will have to involve resurrecting the original.
But did Gamora actually die? I got the impression that GotG3 would be the search for her. We don't see her disintegrate with the others, do we? While Tony wouldn't have known that she had turned against Thanos by that point, maybe the soul stone could discern that.

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tokenBG1009
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 16:38

sambadaemon wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:25
Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:14
tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:10
So, at this point, is it kind of a given that Gamora isn't in Guardians 3? Unless they make the weird decision to have a movie that comes out almost two years after the movie with her death take place BEFORE that. At that point will the Guardians ever catch up to the MCU? That would mean they'd forever be stuck quite a few years behind the main timeline.



I'm not sure why we're spoiler tagging the line when it's clearly the most recognizable phrase connected to the Avengers, but I'm going with "Avengers Assemble" at this point.
Based on the end of Endgame, I predict GotG3 will be Asguardians of the Galaxy, with Thor. Whether the movie will include young Gamora, I do not know. That was left unclear. But I don’t think there’s any reason to expect it will be a prequel to Infinity War. So if they’re going to include Gamora, it’ll either be young Gamora or the story will have to involve resurrecting the original.
But did Gamora actually die? I got the impression that GotG3 would be the search for her. We don't see her disintegrate with the others, do we? While Tony wouldn't have known that she had turned against Thanos by that point, maybe the soul stone could discern that.
It's POSSIBLE they'd put 2014 Gamora in the movie, but that feels weird to me. OG Gamora is definitely dead though and that's the one I was speaking about.
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sambadaemon
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by sambadaemon » 29 Apr 2019, 16:40

tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:38
sambadaemon wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:25
Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:14


Based on the end of Endgame, I predict GotG3 will be Asguardians of the Galaxy, with Thor. Whether the movie will include young Gamora, I do not know. That was left unclear. But I don’t think there’s any reason to expect it will be a prequel to Infinity War. So if they’re going to include Gamora, it’ll either be young Gamora or the story will have to involve resurrecting the original.
But did Gamora actually die? I got the impression that GotG3 would be the search for her. We don't see her disintegrate with the others, do we? While Tony wouldn't have known that she had turned against Thanos by that point, maybe the soul stone could discern that.
It's POSSIBLE they'd put 2014 Gamora in the movie, but that feels weird to me. OG Gamora is definitely dead though and that's the one I was speaking about.

Yeah, that's what I meant. 2014 Gamora survived but slipped away in the confusion, and AsGotG will be them trying to find her. Quill at least wants to believe that's what happened, since he was scanning for her at the very end.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Apr 2019, 16:47

Well it’s funny calling her young Gamora cause it’s only like 5 yrs ago lol
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 29 Apr 2019, 17:19

When I said “young Gamora” I meant 2014 Gamora. We don’t know if she was dusted. 2018 Gamora is dead.

I don’t know why 2014 Gamora would join the Guardians. She doesn’t know any of them except Nebula. And her relationship with Nebula is terrible.

I expect repairing her story will be a major storyline of GotG 3, whether it’s the 2014 or 2018 version. Frankly, I’d prefer the latter. It doesn’t make much sense to me that Quill and 2014 would start a relationship. Doing so with the dead other Gamora hanging over their heads would be too wierd

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by sambadaemon » 29 Apr 2019, 17:53

Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 17:19
When I said “young Gamora” I meant 2014 Gamora. We don’t know if she was dusted. 2018 Gamora is dead.

I don’t know why 2014 Gamora would join the Guardians. She doesn’t know any of them except Nebula. And her relationship with Nebula is terrible.

I expect repairing her story will be a major storyline of GotG 3, whether it’s the 2014 or 2018 version. Frankly, I’d prefer the latter. It doesn’t make much sense to me that Quill and 2014 would start a relationship. Doing so with the dead other Gamora hanging over their heads would be too wierd
She came from at most a few weeks before she joined up with them the first time, though, didn't she? So her personality won't be too terribly different from the original.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 17:57

Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 17:19
When I said “young Gamora” I meant 2014 Gamora. We don’t know if she was dusted. 2018 Gamora is dead.

I don’t know why 2014 Gamora would join the Guardians. She doesn’t know any of them except Nebula. And her relationship with Nebula is terrible.

I expect repairing her story will be a major storyline of GotG 3, whether it’s the 2014 or 2018 version. Frankly, I’d prefer the latter. It doesn’t make much sense to me that Quill and 2014 would start a relationship. Doing so with the dead other Gamora hanging over their heads would be too wierd
Strangely, Nebula is the only reason I'd see her joining the Guardians. She was still firmly #TeamThanos until Nebula told her they'd actually become real sisters. She may want to explore that relationship.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Apr 2019, 17:58

Not even a few weeks, she’s basically from right as GotG vol.1 starts...
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 29 Apr 2019, 18:10

GotG3 will totally follow the Star Trek formula and be "The Search for Gamora". Gamora was never Team Thanos. From the very beginning of the first movie, we find out that she's been trying to find the stones first so that he doesn't.

But yeah, the OldCap thing isn't going to be an issue. I'm fairly certain that him going back would have created another branch timeline. He simply lived out his life as he should've with Peggy, and when she died, he decided to return to the main timeline.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 29 Apr 2019, 19:10

EphemeristX wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 18:10
GotG3 will totally follow the Star Trek formula and be "The Search for Gamora". Gamora was never Team Thanos. From the very beginning of the first movie, we find out that she's been trying to find the stones first so that he doesn't.

But yeah, the OldCap thing isn't going to be an issue. I'm fairly certain that him going back would have created another branch timeline. He simply lived out his life as he should've with Peggy, and when she died, he decided to return to the main timeline.
I agree, the only thing they messed up was he should have appeared back on the platform, not on the park bench, but they wanted it to be more dramatic. The no-prize could be that he managed to find a way to zap back a half hour earlier and snuck over to sit on the bench just to give them a little surprise.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Apr 2019, 19:24

See I thought he was on the bench because he walked there not teleported in...like the whole time they were talking, OldCap was on the bench because he knew that’s where they’d be. And they just noticed him then...
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by manuel_mc89 » 29 Apr 2019, 19:41

That was my undersanding too, not that he teleported back at that moment and place, but that he had lived up to that point and went there. Although, that wouldnt explain how Old Cap knew he wouldnt be dusted by Thanos, so maybe he did came back before that.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 20:51

See, at this point with OldCap I think they really went with what Nu-D said. Cap has always gone back to live a life with Peggy. He just avoided being seen by others when necessary. Then he attended Tony's funeral. This isn't all that weird considering random teenager that was there as well.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 29 Apr 2019, 21:11

But guys that's what EphemeristX is saying, that can't have happened because when he went back it was in a different timeline. The timeline where he lived with Peggy and got married was separate. He would have had to use the particles to zap back into the main reality at some point.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 21:33

Anna Raven wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 21:11
But guys that's what EphemeristX is saying, that can't have happened because when he went back it was in a different timeline. The timeline where he lived with Peggy and got married was separate. He would have had to use the particles to zap back into the main reality at some point.
What makes it a different timeline though? He goes back and replaces the stone and just waits until he's in the ice to meet Peggy again. At this point it doesn't seem outrageous that she'd listen to his story and go with it. He just replaced all the stones and saved the reality gem for last. Then he just discards the suit to avoid being pulled back to the present so he can live his life with her.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 29 Apr 2019, 21:40

tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 21:33
Anna Raven wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 21:11
But guys that's what EphemeristX is saying, that can't have happened because when he went back it was in a different timeline. The timeline where he lived with Peggy and got married was separate. He would have had to use the particles to zap back into the main reality at some point.
What makes it a different timeline though? He goes back and replaces the stone and just waits until he's in the ice to meet Peggy again. At this point it doesn't seem outrageous that she'd listen to his story and go with it. He just replaced all the stones and saved the reality gem for last. Then he just discards the suit to avoid being pulled back to the present so he can live his life with her.
The moment you jump back in time makes it a different timeline. Every time you jump back in time, it is to a diverging timeline that then becomes your future. Then when you jump back (using the particles) you return to your own timeline. If you never jump back, you stay in that divergent timeline forever. Now there might be a Sam and a Bucky and a Hulk waiting for you there still, but it would still be a different timeline.

Another possible explanation then I suppose would be that we the viewer in that instant, leapt from one timeline to the other without realizing it.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 29 Apr 2019, 21:57

The weird random teenager at Tony's funeral was Harley Keener, the kid from Iron Man 3. It was the same actor too, all grown up

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 29 Apr 2019, 22:12

Anna Raven wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 21:40
tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 21:33
Anna Raven wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 21:11
But guys that's what EphemeristX is saying, that can't have happened because when he went back it was in a different timeline. The timeline where he lived with Peggy and got married was separate. He would have had to use the particles to zap back into the main reality at some point.
What makes it a different timeline though? He goes back and replaces the stone and just waits until he's in the ice to meet Peggy again. At this point it doesn't seem outrageous that she'd listen to his story and go with it. He just replaced all the stones and saved the reality gem for last. Then he just discards the suit to avoid being pulled back to the present so he can live his life with her.
The moment you jump back in time makes it a different timeline. Every time you jump back in time, it is to a diverging timeline that then becomes your future. Then when you jump back (using the particles) you return to your own timeline. If you never jump back, you stay in that divergent timeline forever. Now there might be a Sam and a Bucky and a Hulk waiting for you there still, but it would still be a different timeline.

Another possible explanation then I suppose would be that we the viewer in that instant, leapt from one timeline to the other without realizing it.
The problem with this theory, though, is that the Ancient One agreed to let Bruce take the gem. If the very instant someone comes back generates a divergent timeline, then the ancient one's logic fails. When Steve came back to return the time stone, a new reality would be generated: one where he did, and one where he didn't. The Ancient One, knowing this, would then not be able to give the stone to Bruce, because one of her two futures would be without the Stone.

No, there has to be a grace period. So long as no key events are disrupted, the timeline can get back on track. You can change the past, but so long as that change is inconsequential, it goes back to the same timeline. I 30-decond gap in the presence of an infinity stone, if not perceived by anyone, is sufficiently inconsequential that no new future is created. So Bruce can take the time stone, it can be gone for a few minutes, Steve can return it, and it will all be a single timeline. Even with the Ancient One knowing that the gap happened, because she is who she is, she's capable of keeping that secret and not letting it impact the future.

But even assuming that there was an instantaneous divergence upon the presence of a time traveller, it's perfectly possible for Cap after returning the stones, to jump back to 1946-ish in the main MCU and live his life there, because that's always what has been the true history of the main MCU. If there's a universe where he did not join Peggy in 1946, that's not the MCU we've been watching for 11 years.

Until the films contradict that, I think it's the best, most satisfying theory. I don't like the idea that he's been living in some Alt-U, and just popped back over to the present in this universe just for kicks.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 29 Apr 2019, 22:44

This is like a Dagwood sandwich of Marvel Studios movies. There’s so much movie happening I’m not sure how to parse it. It’s definitely head & shoulders above Infinity War.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 29 Apr 2019, 22:45

If Cap going back was always supposed to have happened, then I'm pretty certain he doesn't reunite with Peggy until after 1970, and certainly not before 1947 (when Season 2 of Agent Carter is set). Need to watch it again to check she's not wearing a ring, buf there's a pre-transformation photo of Steve on her desk which would be a pretty weird choice of photo if they've already reunited.

I don't think Cap can live out his life in the past without it contradicting the branching universe concept. Branching universe (every act of time travel creates a divergence) cannot exist in a universe where static universes exist (any act of time travel has already happened and was always going to happen). Given that we know Cap didn't fight himself and Loki didn't scarper with the Space Stone in the MCU Prime, nor did Nebula get replaced by her past self, we're either watching an alternate MCU at the point Steve travels back, or Steve has found a way to cross realities.

What I don't know is if the rules governing the Stones and their divergence are consistent with the time travel shown in Agents of Shield, I'm not sure that they are.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 29 Apr 2019, 22:57

Spectral Knight wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 22:45

I don't think Cap can live out his life in the past without it contradicting the branching universe concept. Branching universe (every act of time travel creates a divergence) cannot exist in a universe where static universes exist (any act of time travel has already happened and was always going to happen). Given that we know Cap didn't fight himself and Loki didn't scarper with the Space Stone in the MCU Prime, nor did Nebula get replaced by her past self, we're either watching an alternate MCU at the point Steve travels back, or Steve has found a way to cross realities.
But that’s the point, the main MCU is the branch where Cap went back (in my fan interpretation). Maybe it was a little later than ‘47, but it could still have been early enough to live a life with Peggy and not contradict anything other than small details.

Or maybe the Agent Carter ABC series is set in the alt-u where Steve never came back.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Apr 2019, 23:35

Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 22:57
Spectral Knight wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 22:45

I don't think Cap can live out his life in the past without it contradicting the branching universe concept. Branching universe (every act of time travel creates a divergence) cannot exist in a universe where static universes exist (any act of time travel has already happened and was always going to happen). Given that we know Cap didn't fight himself and Loki didn't scarper with the Space Stone in the MCU Prime, nor did Nebula get replaced by her past self, we're either watching an alternate MCU at the point Steve travels back, or Steve has found a way to cross realities.
But that’s the point, the main MCU is the branch where Cap went back (in my fan interpretation). Maybe it was a little later than ‘47, but it could still have been early enough to live a life with Peggy and not contradict anything other than small details.

Or maybe the Agent Carter ABC series is set in the alt-u where Steve never came back.

Exactly my take...Peggy said she had a husband but we never see him. It’s certainly possible that steve is her second husband or maybe that husband. I mean we really don’t know.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Apr 2019, 00:24

The Ancient One and Bruce describe exactly what is happening when she gives him the Time Stone. There are currently three timelines in the MCU.
1. The main one
2. The "Loki gets the Space Stone" one
3. The "Thanos and his army are destroyed before the events of GotG" one

There would be additional timelines for the following events:
1. Bruce takes the Time Stone (Pre-Doctor Strange)
2. Steve takes the Mind Stone (Avengers 1)
3. The Power and Soul stones are taken (Pre-GotG and Whenever)
4. The Space Stone is taken (Post Agent Carter)
5. The Reality Stone and Mjolnir are taken (Thor 2)

Steve goes back and replaces the stones taken from those timelines. Those are no longer divergement because the stones were replaced before they were taken. This is why they don't stop Thanos from fulfilling his plan. They just undo it in the present. They can't go back and undo what Thanos has done in the past because it would create an additional timeline.

This means that Steve made a decision to go back and spend his life with Peggy in the main MCU. That has always been a part of the MCU's history.

It's basically a cleaner version of the O5 story from Bendis/Bunn/Hopeless's X-Men run. Steve's personal timeline is basically a weird Q. It goes the 1945 - 2011 he's frozen in ice -> 2011 - 2024 with the Avengers -> BACK to sometime after 1947 to be with Peggy and surviving until 2024 to give Sam the shield. Which, holy cow, Steve looks REALLY good for a man who should be around 110 at that point.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Apr 2019, 00:33

Well if the average man lives to be like 72 in the US, super-solider should live to like 120-130 (which is prolly the limit on our human genes).
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Apr 2019, 00:46

Blackcyclops wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 00:33
Well if the average man lives to be like 72 in the US, super-solider should live to like 120-130 (which is prolly the limit on our human genes).
True. I wonder what that marriage was like as Peggy continued to get older and he continued looking younger.
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