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X-Factor #4

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Lavettye
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Lavettye » 04 Oct 2020, 12:05

norwichchris wrote:
04 Oct 2020, 11:31
My favourite part of this issue for me was Apocalypse wanting healer to revive Rictor over himself, then killing him when he refused. This shows to me that Apocalypse is weary of the resurrection process and does not really want them to use as he feels mutants should fight for there right to survive. He does have a connection to Rictor and wants him to survive as he is.
No, that's not what this scene shows. If A were weary of the ressurection process, he wouldn't have deliberately let Rogue kill him and be ressurected in Excalibur #5-6.

All that this scene shows is that there is some sort of deep connection between A and Rictor, one that we don't yet fully understand but obviously is going to be further explored later. This scene was nothing else but two people being wheeled into an emergency room together, and one of them demanding that the other gets treated before them, despite the medics having made a different call based on their professional opinion. This happens all the time when couples, close friends or family members are injured in the same incident and are treated parallel.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by das_boot » 04 Oct 2020, 20:18

I mean, honestly, I’m starting to wonder whether they’ve shipped out two different versions of this issue because of the amount of confusion to what (I thought) was a really straight forward and well explained issue is really confusing me...
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Lavettye » 05 Oct 2020, 00:32

Jesse James II wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 22:43
In the first issue of the Crossover Pertilence shoots the messenger on the Pterodactyl, I mean Pteranodon, the arrow infectq hin with some kind of desease or virus which infects everyone he touches. Shouldn't that mean that at least Syrin would be affected?
Only if all her arrows carry the same disease. We don't yet know enough about how Pestilence's powers work.


Someone asked how they would even be able to have genetic material from an energy being like Rockslide.... It could be genetic material or taken or recorded from before his powers activated. Sinister probably found a way to get his hands on some old blood or tissue samples.


As for the whole debate whether or not Otherworld magics could retroactively alter Cerebro back-ups, according to the story they can and do, simply put. You may not like it, but that's what it says in the pages. And there is a bit of precedence. If you look back at Excalibur (1st series) #50, you have Excalibur destroy the tower in Otherworld (the nexus place that was present in all realities), and as they did, so did crumble all tower/lighthouse counterparts in all realities. I know it's not the same thing, but it clearly shows that something done on Otherworld can have a lasting effect on individual realities.

Maybe it will help if you try to stop thinking of Otherworld as some other, separate dimension. It's not. It's a nexus of realities, an in between world simultanously connected to each one of them. While it can be intresting to ask how and why this connection came to be or how exactly they affect each other, there's no denying that they do.
_Rick_ wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 23:48
That could be a possibility that should be explored. There's another surefire way of resurrecting people who were killed in Otherworld: Jamie. We saw him resurrect Brian in Excalibur without much effort. Brian was also killed in Otherworld so we know it works.
Jamie is able to warp reality. For what it's worth, this may just be a massive healing, rather than a true ressurection. Brian was physically killed and Jamie warped reality to repair the damage done to his body. It's not like Brian had been desintegrated, and Jamie ressurected him from nothing. Or, and that one is also possible, Jamie just recreated a Brian as close to the original as can be, but this is just a soulless individual and not the true Brian.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Cable » 05 Oct 2020, 01:43

This issue really made this crossover so much better to me. The first issue I didn't post in the thread because everyone seemed to love it and I didn't want to be a debbie-downer lol. Because the XoS Creation issue I was so bored. I really don't care about this whole other world that Hickman and Howard built and furthermore don't really like this new backstory for Apocalypse who is one of my all-time favorite characters. Throw in some timey-wimey Otherworld nonsense and I wasn't feeling it at all. However this issue really raised the stakes and I can't deny (as an anime and video game fan) I do love a good ol' fashioned fight tournament. This was a well-written issue and Williams has gotten me onboard for now. Let's see how whoever gets the baton next does.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Oct 2020, 01:51

We don’t have enough great comic fight tournaments...
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Fenix » 05 Oct 2020, 09:36

das_boot wrote:
04 Oct 2020, 20:18
I mean, honestly, I’m starting to wonder whether they’ve shipped out two different versions of this issue because of the amount of confusion to what (I thought) was a really straight forward and well explained issue is really confusing me...
das_boot, comics as any other media like books or movies are subject to personal point of views and perspectives.
Im delighted you enjoyed the issue and you understood everything without challenging it at all.

Unfortunately, for me and Im guessing some more people, Its not that easy.
First, I was challenging Rockslide's "death" as, no matter if its at Otherworld or on Earth, most of psychics work the same in both places as it hasnt been told otherwise explicitly anywhere. Casting spells or other magic effects might be in motion and casted by Rome, Merlyn or other users yet Storm's or Polaris' powers work exactly the same way as on Earth following this reasoning.

I have read Excalibur, the original series, and how several key plot points are being played here.
Saying that destroying the Lighthouse, which was a nexus to all realities, affected the multiverse by destroying its counterparts in every reality is one thing.
Stating Rockslide and his energy matrix can be destroyed that easily is another.
It remains to be seen what kind of weapon the Summoner used or if he does have some powerset helping him to manage this feat.
And then stating that if anybody dies in Otherworld it retroactively affects Cerebro and its stored back up... thats something even bigger.

Facts: In Uncanny XForce Betsy forces Brian to break Jamie's neck. In Otherworld, to stop him.
Yet he was resurrected in the current Excalibur without any issue.

This is a healthy discussion, we might not agree here and there yet thats the fun part of these forums.

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Lavettye » 05 Oct 2020, 10:57

In that Panel in which the Summoner slices through Ropckslide, you can also see the silhouette of Santo's Energy inside the rock, and it's sliced apart just like his Stone Shell is. I had to look twice to actually make it out, but it's there. That, plus the scene from X-men #12 in which the Summoner described Santo's pwower, read to me as if the Summoner knew exactly what he was doing and that he specifically choose or created a blade that could disrupt Santo's energy self.

In a way, Santo's naivete let him get killed, for he let a strange, questionable individual examine him close enough to find his achilles' heel.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Oct 2020, 13:23

Lavettye wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 10:57
In that Panel in which the Summoner slices through Ropckslide, you can also see the silhouette of Santo's Energy inside the rock, and it's sliced apart just like his Stone Shell is. I had to look twice to actually make it out, but it's there. That, plus the scene from X-men #12 in which the Summoner described Santo's pwower, read to me as if the Summoner knew exactly what he was doing and that he specifically choose or created a blade that could disrupt Santo's energy self.

In a way, Santo's naivete let him get killed, for he let a strange, questionable individual examine him close enough to find his achilles' heel.


I saw that too and that’s why I thought it was clear how the Summoner killed him. Again, I didn’t see the confusion in it...energy forms are disrupted and potentially “killed” all the times in comics. If we’re really going to be arguing about what real world science says, then well I hate to bring it up but real world science doesn’t say a rock man exists either lol...
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Oct 2020, 13:24

Fenix wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 09:36
das_boot wrote:
04 Oct 2020, 20:18
I mean, honestly, I’m starting to wonder whether they’ve shipped out two different versions of this issue because of the amount of confusion to what (I thought) was a really straight forward and well explained issue is really confusing me...
das_boot, comics as any other media like books or movies are subject to personal point of views and perspectives.
Im delighted you enjoyed the issue and you understood everything without challenging it at all.

Unfortunately, for me and Im guessing some more people, Its not that easy.
First, I was challenging Rockslide's "death" as, no matter if its at Otherworld or on Earth, most of psychics work the same in both places as it hasnt been told otherwise explicitly anywhere. Casting spells or other magic effects might be in motion and casted by Rome, Merlyn or other users yet Storm's or Polaris' powers work exactly the same way as on Earth following this reasoning.

I have read Excalibur, the original series, and how several key plot points are being played here.
Saying that destroying the Lighthouse, which was a nexus to all realities, affected the multiverse by destroying its counterparts in every reality is one thing.
Stating Rockslide and his energy matrix can be destroyed that easily is another.
It remains to be seen what kind of weapon the Summoner used or if he does have some powerset helping him to manage this feat.
And then stating that if anybody dies in Otherworld it retroactively affects Cerebro and its stored back up... thats something even bigger.

Facts: In Uncanny XForce Betsy forces Brian to break Jamie's neck. In Otherworld, to stop him.
Yet he was resurrected in the current Excalibur without any issue.

This is a healthy discussion, we might not agree here and there yet thats the fun part of these forums.

Actually, Jamie was last killed in Infinity Countdown with the Black Widow...this didn’t take place in Otherworld...

Funny enough, that book was written by Gerry Duggan. An architect of the X-line...who probably told his fellow x-writers Howard and Hickman.

Like I mean I get interpretation and everything but this isn’t interpretation, this is what’s on the page.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by norwichchris » 06 Oct 2020, 18:55

It's more an in-depth study of what transpired in Otherworld with Rockslide, in my view thought he was cut in half and unable to resurrect correctly due to something Saturnye did however others pointed out the Magics of Otherworld somehow affected Cerebro's backups. This could only have occurred if Cerebro was connected to Otherworld and it somehow corrupted it, Magic so its weird!

As Lavettye mentioned actually your correct you do see Santo's energy being sliced into so it is possible that the Summoner had a weapon that could also have affected the resurrection process by corrupting it? The problem only occurred when Santo was being resurrected. The Summoner would have known about the resurrection process and wanted to disable for what they had in store for Krakoa anyway.

Back to Apocalypse in Excalibur 5-6 he was trying to create a connection to otherworld at any cost, even his own life as he was going to be resurrected quickly so you are correct.

But throughout the issue he is trying to get Rictor to fight to live as he is a Mutant as he has a connection to him not because he cares about him in someway refuse to believe this(my view). He was so angry with Healer he nearly killed.

Another thing don't get is why did healer not go to Rictor first? surely his wounds were more severe than Apocalypse's?

Note Apocalypse has a healing factor I believe is that correct?

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Oct 2020, 19:03

Summoner just wanted kill Rockslide so they could get to Apocalypse...since the whole setup was to get him and then conqueror Krakoa. Nothing really said he knew about how Otherworld would impact their resurrection process...
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by norwichchris » 07 Oct 2020, 21:10

Summoner spent a great deal of time analyzing Docksides powders and so knew how to kill him quickly if he needed to.

Did Summoner know about the Krakoa resurrection process though?

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by das_boot » 08 Oct 2020, 00:04

Summoner’s been on Krakoa for at least a couple of weeks, and depending on how long ago X-Men #5 happened, and whether he was there at the beginning of the events in that title, he could have been on Krakoa for as long as 3 months, perhaps longer. Admittedly, X-Men #5 is an odd case because it’s one of the few issues that even mentions time passing, but I think it’s safe to say that Summoner has certainly been on Krakoa long enough to know about the resurrection protocols, and in fact, may have known that his actions would have caused issues with the protocols.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by norwichchris » 08 Oct 2020, 21:27

So if potentially if the X-men win the duel will anyone who dies be resurrected once the connection with Otherworld is disabled? also do you think they will attempt to resurrect the horsemen and give them a new fresh-start on Krakoa?

Tend to view the Otherworld as more an unwanted program is stopping Cerebro from functioning.

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 09 Oct 2020, 01:58

Lavettye wrote:
04 Oct 2020, 12:05
norwichchris wrote:
04 Oct 2020, 11:31
My favourite part of this issue for me was Apocalypse wanting healer to revive Rictor over himself, then killing him when he refused. This shows to me that Apocalypse is weary of the resurrection process and does not really want them to use as he feels mutants should fight for there right to survive. He does have a connection to Rictor and wants him to survive as he is.
No, that's not what this scene shows. If A were weary of the ressurection process, he wouldn't have deliberately let Rogue kill him and be ressurected in Excalibur #5-6.

All that this scene shows is that there is some sort of deep connection between A and Rictor, one that we don't yet fully understand but obviously is going to be further explored later. This scene was nothing else but two people being wheeled into an emergency room together, and one of them demanding that the other gets treated before them, despite the medics having made a different call based on their professional opinion. This happens all the time when couples, close friends or family members are injured in the same incident and are treated parallel.
While I do believe there's some kind of connection being made between TMFKA and Rictor I think TMFKA's reasoning is simpler than that. Rictor is basically saying "Eh, who cares about dying? I'll just be brought back" which goes against TMFKA's whole ideology. Life has meaning because you've earned the right to survive. The Crucible exists because former mutants must earn their powers back. Choosing to die instead of fighting to live is a sign of weakness to him.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Lavettye » 09 Oct 2020, 11:48

Yes, that's A's reasoning for telling Rictor to fight… but it wouldn't explain why he attacks the Healer over it.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by norwichchris » 10 Oct 2020, 11:38

Yes it does he wants the healer to heal Rictor and gets angry when he realises he's letting Rictor die and so he kills him in retaliation.

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Lavettye » 10 Oct 2020, 14:40

norwichchris wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 11:38
Yes it does he wants the healer to heal Rictor and gets angry when he realises he's letting Rictor die and so he kills him in retaliation.
No, it doesn't.

Token said Apocalypse didn't want Rictor to just give up, but value life more and fight for his survival. If his issue is with Rictor, then attacking the Healer makes no sense.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by norwichchris » 10 Oct 2020, 18:32

The Healer states that he is letting Rictor die so he can be resurrected this angers Apocalypse who believes that he is letting a fellow mutant die so he tries to kill him.

Unsure if he actually does or not though as Rachael intervenes and stops him. I am more confused with healers actions as not only does Apocalypse have the ability to heal rapidly (unsure if this true or not know?) but Rictor is in a far worse condition and should be healed first.

Also Apocalypse can be fast-tracked resurrected.

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Lavettye » 10 Oct 2020, 19:27

The Healer states no such thing. In fact he says "I'm helping you both." But Apocalypse realizes that the Healer is not fully healing Rictor, (more like keeping him as comfortable as he possibly can) and then Apoc. surmises "You're letting him pass on."

As for why - it's a matter of resources. Healing people drains the Healer (was mentioned way back in Uncanny X-Men #193, when he brought back Xavier from the brink of death). There's only so much he can do, and apparently it was decided that trying to heal Rictor would take too much out of the Healer. It's energy that could be spent otherwise. Apparently he couldn't save them both, so why bother trying when it would also mean that it leaves him completely drained and unable to help whatever next patient comes in. It was no death sentence either, as Healer outright said that Rictor's ressurection would be fast-tracked.

Indeed Apocalypse does have a healing factor - opposed to Rictor - so he wasn't as much effected by the poison and rescuing Apocalypse seemed the more efficient use of Healer's powers. That said, though, every healing factor has limits, and they were victims of a Horseman whose powers is disease, explaining why Apocalypse couldn't just shake it off all by himself.

Healer did not die. It's quite there in the pages. Rachel says "I had to stop you from killing Healer" and later she says that he "was trying to murder Healer", so obviously he didn't finish it.... otherwise, Apocalypse would find himself subject of Krakoa's no killing law, btw.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Fenix » 10 Oct 2020, 21:17

Lavettye wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 19:27
The Healer states no such thing. In fact he says "I'm helping you both." But Apocalypse realizes that the Healer is not fully healing Rictor, (more like keeping him as comfortable as he possibly can) and then Apoc. surmises "You're letting him pass on."

As for why - it's a matter of resources. Healing people drains the Healer (was mentioned way back in Uncanny X-Men #193, when he brought back Xavier from the brink of death). There's only so much he can do, and apparently it was decided that trying to heal Rictor would take too much out of the Healer. It's energy that could be spent otherwise. Apparently he couldn't save them both, so why bother trying when it would also mean that it leaves him completely drained and unable to help whatever next patient comes in. It was no death sentence either, as Healer outright said that Rictor's ressurection would be fast-tracked.

Indeed Apocalypse does have a healing factor - opposed to Rictor - so he wasn't as much effected by the poison and rescuing Apocalypse seemed the more efficient use of Healer's powers. That said, though, every healing factor has limits, and they were victims of a Horseman whose powers is disease, explaining why Apocalypse couldn't just shake it off all by himself.

Healer did not die. It's quite there in the pages. Rachel says "I had to stop you from killing Healer" and later she says that he "was trying to murder Healer", so obviously he didn't finish it.... otherwise, Apocalypse would find himself subject of Krakoa's no killing law, btw.
The main question here is why the Xmen are using Healer as their main source of healing while there are other super powerful healers around like Elixir or, supposedly, Triage.

Yes, Elixir is busy with the resurrection protocols... but he was able to heal and regenerate severe injuries with little to no effort, its better to heal Rictor than resurrecting him... isn't it?
Same goes for Triage who had a bad ending in Rosenberg's Xmen... if he died or got depowered, where is he now? Was he resurrected/repowered?

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Oct 2020, 21:57

Well if you’re looking at the Healers as resources, then you wouldn’t want to endanger or deplete someone like Elixir (given you can resurrect someone, that should always be a priority).

Triage was stated in another book as a secondary healing system to the Healer.
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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by norwichchris » 10 Oct 2020, 22:37

But surely it's a greater use of resource resurrecting Rictor. Apocalypse assuming was stable, then surely Rictor should get more treatment.

Elixir would be better choice but he is in a symbiotic relationship with the 5. It could be that having him healing others would make them less effective.

Mutants killing other mutants is not yet a crime on Krakoa. Although think he and Shaw are in trouble.

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Re: X-Factor #4

Post by das_boot » 12 Oct 2020, 00:53

I mean... if I were the person responsible for tactics on Krakoa, which, for this thought experiment, we’ll assume that I am...

-Healer is old. Even if his powers are increasing as it’s been suggested that mutants are experiencing slight power growths after being resurrected, he’s still old (and therefore possibly not as powerful as he would have been at his zenith), and therefore he’s not necessarily the most powerful healer on Krakoa.
-However: a portal to an unknown realm has just opened on the island and people seem to be getting wounded and killed and are also being drafted into a bunch of back alley knife fights (okay, or battles with swords, same difference). It can be assumed that there will be a LOT of casualties before this is over. From a tactical standpoint, it makes sense to rely on the weakest of the healers to help where they can in the opening salvo, as well as relying on conventional medicine with Dr Reyes, and keep your stronger healers in reserve for later.
-Elixir is very busy with the five (and potentially even busier if the deaths keep stacking up). Keeping him and Triage in reserve makes far more sense than expending them early on when they don’t know how many other people could be wounded or need bringing back from the brink of death (which we’ve seen both of them do, whilst Healer was exhausted after healing Dani’s injuries she suffered at the hands of the Demon Bear AFTER she had been stabilised by surgery).
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