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Hellions #4

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MichaelWagner
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by MichaelWagner » 19 Sep 2020, 00:30

Love that Nanny got Sinister a little shook. Greycrow and Nanny are the two I’m am most interested in. So worthwhile if Empath is killed on every mission.

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Usernamenotimportant
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 19 Sep 2020, 15:28

Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 20:36
EphemeristX wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 13:34
Jean's on the council, so I imagine she had some input there. And Storm would 100% back up her best friend. And I imagine the Hellfire side of the council would veto her resurrection completely, given their history, while the villain side likely wouldn't care. Of the 12, I think Nightcrawler, Mystique, and Xavier would probably be the only ones for her return with Magneto and Exodus abstaining.
Well, objectively I think:

Apocalypse would vote yes to Maddy's resurrection as she is extremely powerful. I resist to believe he would let Maddy become such a waste. Yet he could vote no as well.

Magneto would probably abstain as they didnt interact over the years, at all. But he could also vote no as he doesn't have any feelings towards her and using just logic and the current rules... Maddy is a clone.

Xavier met Maddy during those initial years, he was there when Maddy helped the Xmen during the Asgardian Wars and Maddy brought a lot of joy and happiness when she gave birth to baby Nathan providing Scott with a very earned and deserved happy ending. He never experienced what happened to her later on, her corruption (as she was a victim, never forget this) and suicide. Yes, she is a clone but she is NOT Jean in any aspect appart of genes/looks. Xavier would vote yes to resurrect Maddy.

Exodus would abstain or follow Magneto's vote.

Mystique would abstain or vote no, she either doesn't care or would oppose as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

Mr. Sinister should vote yes for obvious reasons. Yet voting no so he can work in the backstage and fulfill his own agenda would make sense. Same goes for abstaining, it all depends in what plans he does have for Maddy.

Shaw would vote yes. They even had a fling. Maddy could be a tool, a powerful tool, and Shaw is playing his own game, as usual.

Kate would vote have mixed feelings. She would be in a similar position as Xavier, Nightcrawler or Storm. However Kate has evolved into something else, and she does try to be more pragmatical and less sentimental. So Im going for a no to resurrect Maddy.

Emma would vote NO. There is not one good reason for Emma to vote different. Maddy is Scott's ex-wife, she is crazy, she is a pain in the ass, she even made Scott cheat on her when they were together... Why would Emma want Maddy running around Krakoa? So clearly NO to resurrect her.

Nightcrawler would vote yes to resurrect her.

Same would go for Storm, who was a witness to Maddy's most tragic and heroic side, and how she was corrupted beyond any help the Xmen could give her. The Xmen ultimately failed her and lost her, Storm would try to give her a chance to redeem herself.

Jean. Well, Jean and Maddy merged their memories. If anybody knows Maddy well, more than Scott, that's Jean. Jean replaced Maddy in many ways (as Scott's partner, as Nate's adoptive mother) and is directly responsible for Maddy's downfall and later corruption.
My bet is Jean still feels responsible for Maddy's fate and is absolutely aware of this debt that she can't possibly pay. Jean is used to doppelgangers, alternate timelines children and cosmic entities roaming around her... Maddy is ultimately Jean's "twin sister" and Jean would vote yes to resurrect her.

Do Captains have a vote?
Im not sure.
If they could vote...

Scott would clearly vote NO. I dont think he should vote no yet it is mostly clear he didnt want her to be resurrected.
Bishop would vote no as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules, no clones.
Magik would vote no, there isn't any reason why Magik would want another demonic sorceress with ties to the Limbo and S'ym/N'Astirh that was partially responsible for her destruction/back to child.
And Gorgon would vote no as he just doesn't care about her and it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

So my guess:

Yes: Xavier, Jean, Storm, Nightcrawler, Shaw.
No: Mystique, Magneto, Exodus, Emma, Kate.
Dubious: Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse.

And all the Captains would vote no so...
Yeah, you're wrong about a lot of this.

First of all, captains don't get a vote. Second, Scott has already said he tried to convince the Council to resurrect, and it's clear he meant it (at least to anyone that isn't a hater thinking he's a mustache-twirling villain manipulating his brother, that is).

Third, Sinister is DUBIOUS? He started the Hellions because he was afraid of Madelyne killing him. There's zero chance of him remotely supporting the idea. He would be the #1 advocate against it.

Fourth, Apocalypse hates clones due to Stryfe. I don't see him remotely supporting it, specially after "Madelyne" (who's not even the real, original Madelyne mind) was trying to destroy Krakoa because she wasn't personally invited, which he wasn't.

So, voting yes would be Xavier, Storm, Nightcrawler, Kitty (who also knew her, and didn't see the going evil phase)
No: Mystique (I don't see her supporting anyone getting resurrected before Irene), Sinister, Apocalypse, Shaw (probably would see her as too much trouble), Exodus (I don't see her being very tolerant to her shenanigans), Magneto (probably would see her too much of a threat), Emma (hates her guts)
Dubious: Jean (I could see her abstaining)

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Fenix
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Fenix » 20 Sep 2020, 10:21

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
19 Sep 2020, 15:28
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 20:36
EphemeristX wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 13:34
Jean's on the council, so I imagine she had some input there. And Storm would 100% back up her best friend. And I imagine the Hellfire side of the council would veto her resurrection completely, given their history, while the villain side likely wouldn't care. Of the 12, I think Nightcrawler, Mystique, and Xavier would probably be the only ones for her return with Magneto and Exodus abstaining.
Well, objectively I think:

Apocalypse would vote yes to Maddy's resurrection as she is extremely powerful. I resist to believe he would let Maddy become such a waste. Yet he could vote no as well.

Magneto would probably abstain as they didnt interact over the years, at all. But he could also vote no as he doesn't have any feelings towards her and using just logic and the current rules... Maddy is a clone.

Xavier met Maddy during those initial years, he was there when Maddy helped the Xmen during the Asgardian Wars and Maddy brought a lot of joy and happiness when she gave birth to baby Nathan providing Scott with a very earned and deserved happy ending. He never experienced what happened to her later on, her corruption (as she was a victim, never forget this) and suicide. Yes, she is a clone but she is NOT Jean in any aspect appart of genes/looks. Xavier would vote yes to resurrect Maddy.

Exodus would abstain or follow Magneto's vote.

Mystique would abstain or vote no, she either doesn't care or would oppose as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

Mr. Sinister should vote yes for obvious reasons. Yet voting no so he can work in the backstage and fulfill his own agenda would make sense. Same goes for abstaining, it all depends in what plans he does have for Maddy.

Shaw would vote yes. They even had a fling. Maddy could be a tool, a powerful tool, and Shaw is playing his own game, as usual.

Kate would vote have mixed feelings. She would be in a similar position as Xavier, Nightcrawler or Storm. However Kate has evolved into something else, and she does try to be more pragmatical and less sentimental. So Im going for a no to resurrect Maddy.

Emma would vote NO. There is not one good reason for Emma to vote different. Maddy is Scott's ex-wife, she is crazy, she is a pain in the ass, she even made Scott cheat on her when they were together... Why would Emma want Maddy running around Krakoa? So clearly NO to resurrect her.

Nightcrawler would vote yes to resurrect her.

Same would go for Storm, who was a witness to Maddy's most tragic and heroic side, and how she was corrupted beyond any help the Xmen could give her. The Xmen ultimately failed her and lost her, Storm would try to give her a chance to redeem herself.

Jean. Well, Jean and Maddy merged their memories. If anybody knows Maddy well, more than Scott, that's Jean. Jean replaced Maddy in many ways (as Scott's partner, as Nate's adoptive mother) and is directly responsible for Maddy's downfall and later corruption.
My bet is Jean still feels responsible for Maddy's fate and is absolutely aware of this debt that she can't possibly pay. Jean is used to doppelgangers, alternate timelines children and cosmic entities roaming around her... Maddy is ultimately Jean's "twin sister" and Jean would vote yes to resurrect her.

Do Captains have a vote?
Im not sure.
If they could vote...

Scott would clearly vote NO. I dont think he should vote no yet it is mostly clear he didnt want her to be resurrected.
Bishop would vote no as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules, no clones.
Magik would vote no, there isn't any reason why Magik would want another demonic sorceress with ties to the Limbo and S'ym/N'Astirh that was partially responsible for her destruction/back to child.
And Gorgon would vote no as he just doesn't care about her and it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

So my guess:

Yes: Xavier, Jean, Storm, Nightcrawler, Shaw.
No: Mystique, Magneto, Exodus, Emma, Kate.
Dubious: Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse.

And all the Captains would vote no so...
Yeah, you're wrong about a lot of this.

First of all, captains don't get a vote. Second, Scott has already said he tried to convince the Council to resurrect, and it's clear he meant it (at least to anyone that isn't a hater thinking he's a mustache-twirling villain manipulating his brother, that is).

Third, Sinister is DUBIOUS? He started the Hellions because he was afraid of Madelyne killing him. There's zero chance of him remotely supporting the idea. He would be the #1 advocate against it.

Fourth, Apocalypse hates clones due to Stryfe. I don't see him remotely supporting it, specially after "Madelyne" (who's not even the real, original Madelyne mind) was trying to destroy Krakoa because she wasn't personally invited, which he wasn't.

So, voting yes would be Xavier, Storm, Nightcrawler, Kitty (who also knew her, and didn't see the going evil phase)
No: Mystique (I don't see her supporting anyone getting resurrected before Irene), Sinister, Apocalypse, Shaw (probably would see her as too much trouble), Exodus (I don't see her being very tolerant to her shenanigans), Magneto (probably would see her too much of a threat), Emma (hates her guts)
Dubious: Jean (I could see her abstaining)
Of course I can be wrong, its my guess as much as it is yours. We havent seen that vote and we can't really know.
As per the Captains voting... I think I said I didn't know, yet... do we really/deeply know how the Council works? What if there is draw? Who takes the decisive vote? If you know the answer then I would love to see where they explain it as well so I can illustrate myself.

Secondly... "(at least to anyone that isn't a hater thinking he's a mustache-twirling villain manipulating his brother, that is)" Im not sure what you are trying to say here.
I havent remotely hinted Scott is manipulating Alex, at all, yet those last pages are very clear. Scott did ask the Council to resurrect Maddy, but mostly as a favor to Alex and on his behalf, not out of compassion, guilt or any other feelings. This is Scott being Alex's brother, not Maddy's ex-husband. Alex directly asks Scott yet Scott, probably trying to avoid causing any further harm to Alex, remains cold and avoids the answer which pretty much states how he feels towards Maddy.

Thirdly, Mr. Sinister afraid of Maddy? Are you sure about it? I totally see the Hellions and this first mission as a cleaning mission. Sinister still does his own, not sanctioned by the Council, homework. You dont even need any panel stating it, you should simply know it.
This cloning facility went out of his control and he sent a team to clean it.
Mr. Sinister is a wildcard.
Sinister clearly does have something with Maddy as he cloned her hundreds of times (see Extintion team era, he really did a number there using several Maddies to his own twisted purposes).
As I said he could simply vote no to resurrect her to do it himself later on, on his own terms, with fail-safes and some "editions".
How can you be sure about what he would vote?

Apocalypse has changed A LOT over the years, the original Apocalypse would feast killing humans and weak mutants not fitting the so-called "survival of the fittest" motto.
However the current Apocalypse has made lots of adjustments to his ways.
Sure, he despises Strife and I totally agree he wouldn't want him resurrected.
But the current Apocalypse is building an army for his own reasons, he needs powerful mutants helping him and Maddy was very powerful.
While he could perfectly vote no to resurrect her he could do the opposite.
Spoiler: show
At the end we are talking about the same person who have just sacrificed most of the High Lords without asking the Quiet Council (or well, the High Lords themselves) for permission.
Again, how can you be so sure about what Apocalypse would do?

The only thing we know is the Council voted and the majority voted no.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by norwichchris » 20 Sep 2020, 14:07

don't really think Apocalypse has changed that much to be honest and he does not hate or despise Stryfe as he showed that he was clearly stronger than him and so deserved to rule that's what he believes in. Yes do think he would not want him resurrected as he would view him as a threat but then again don't really believe he would want any mutants resurrected as this is against his code.

Sinister is not afraid of anyone on Krakoa as he created Maddy and knows how to take her out, don't think he even knew she was there anyway.

He always resurrect her himself if need be.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 20 Sep 2020, 16:36

Fenix wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 10:21
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
19 Sep 2020, 15:28
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 20:36


Well, objectively I think:

Apocalypse would vote yes to Maddy's resurrection as she is extremely powerful. I resist to believe he would let Maddy become such a waste. Yet he could vote no as well.

Magneto would probably abstain as they didnt interact over the years, at all. But he could also vote no as he doesn't have any feelings towards her and using just logic and the current rules... Maddy is a clone.

Xavier met Maddy during those initial years, he was there when Maddy helped the Xmen during the Asgardian Wars and Maddy brought a lot of joy and happiness when she gave birth to baby Nathan providing Scott with a very earned and deserved happy ending. He never experienced what happened to her later on, her corruption (as she was a victim, never forget this) and suicide. Yes, she is a clone but she is NOT Jean in any aspect appart of genes/looks. Xavier would vote yes to resurrect Maddy.

Exodus would abstain or follow Magneto's vote.

Mystique would abstain or vote no, she either doesn't care or would oppose as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

Mr. Sinister should vote yes for obvious reasons. Yet voting no so he can work in the backstage and fulfill his own agenda would make sense. Same goes for abstaining, it all depends in what plans he does have for Maddy.

Shaw would vote yes. They even had a fling. Maddy could be a tool, a powerful tool, and Shaw is playing his own game, as usual.

Kate would vote have mixed feelings. She would be in a similar position as Xavier, Nightcrawler or Storm. However Kate has evolved into something else, and she does try to be more pragmatical and less sentimental. So Im going for a no to resurrect Maddy.

Emma would vote NO. There is not one good reason for Emma to vote different. Maddy is Scott's ex-wife, she is crazy, she is a pain in the ass, she even made Scott cheat on her when they were together... Why would Emma want Maddy running around Krakoa? So clearly NO to resurrect her.

Nightcrawler would vote yes to resurrect her.

Same would go for Storm, who was a witness to Maddy's most tragic and heroic side, and how she was corrupted beyond any help the Xmen could give her. The Xmen ultimately failed her and lost her, Storm would try to give her a chance to redeem herself.

Jean. Well, Jean and Maddy merged their memories. If anybody knows Maddy well, more than Scott, that's Jean. Jean replaced Maddy in many ways (as Scott's partner, as Nate's adoptive mother) and is directly responsible for Maddy's downfall and later corruption.
My bet is Jean still feels responsible for Maddy's fate and is absolutely aware of this debt that she can't possibly pay. Jean is used to doppelgangers, alternate timelines children and cosmic entities roaming around her... Maddy is ultimately Jean's "twin sister" and Jean would vote yes to resurrect her.

Do Captains have a vote?
Im not sure.
If they could vote...

Scott would clearly vote NO. I dont think he should vote no yet it is mostly clear he didnt want her to be resurrected.
Bishop would vote no as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules, no clones.
Magik would vote no, there isn't any reason why Magik would want another demonic sorceress with ties to the Limbo and S'ym/N'Astirh that was partially responsible for her destruction/back to child.
And Gorgon would vote no as he just doesn't care about her and it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

So my guess:

Yes: Xavier, Jean, Storm, Nightcrawler, Shaw.
No: Mystique, Magneto, Exodus, Emma, Kate.
Dubious: Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse.

And all the Captains would vote no so...
Yeah, you're wrong about a lot of this.

First of all, captains don't get a vote. Second, Scott has already said he tried to convince the Council to resurrect, and it's clear he meant it (at least to anyone that isn't a hater thinking he's a mustache-twirling villain manipulating his brother, that is).

Third, Sinister is DUBIOUS? He started the Hellions because he was afraid of Madelyne killing him. There's zero chance of him remotely supporting the idea. He would be the #1 advocate against it.

Fourth, Apocalypse hates clones due to Stryfe. I don't see him remotely supporting it, specially after "Madelyne" (who's not even the real, original Madelyne mind) was trying to destroy Krakoa because she wasn't personally invited, which he wasn't.

So, voting yes would be Xavier, Storm, Nightcrawler, Kitty (who also knew her, and didn't see the going evil phase)
No: Mystique (I don't see her supporting anyone getting resurrected before Irene), Sinister, Apocalypse, Shaw (probably would see her as too much trouble), Exodus (I don't see her being very tolerant to her shenanigans), Magneto (probably would see her too much of a threat), Emma (hates her guts)
Dubious: Jean (I could see her abstaining)
Of course I can be wrong, its my guess as much as it is yours. We havent seen that vote and we can't really know.
As per the Captains voting... I think I said I didn't know, yet... do we really/deeply know how the Council works? What if there is draw? Who takes the decisive vote? If you know the answer then I would love to see where they explain it as well so I can illustrate myself.

Secondly... "(at least to anyone that isn't a hater thinking he's a mustache-twirling villain manipulating his brother, that is)" Im not sure what you are trying to say here.
I havent remotely hinted Scott is manipulating Alex, at all, yet those last pages are very clear. Scott did ask the Council to resurrect Maddy, but mostly as a favor to Alex and on his behalf, not out of compassion, guilt or any other feelings. This is Scott being Alex's brother, not Maddy's ex-husband. Alex directly asks Scott yet Scott, probably trying to avoid causing any further harm to Alex, remains cold and avoids the answer which pretty much states how he feels towards Maddy.

Thirdly, Mr. Sinister afraid of Maddy? Are you sure about it? I totally see the Hellions and this first mission as a cleaning mission. Sinister still does his own, not sanctioned by the Council, homework. You dont even need any panel stating it, you should simply know it.
This cloning facility went out of his control and he sent a team to clean it.
Mr. Sinister is a wildcard.
Sinister clearly does have something with Maddy as he cloned her hundreds of times (see Extintion team era, he really did a number there using several Maddies to his own twisted purposes).
As I said he could simply vote no to resurrect her to do it himself later on, on his own terms, with fail-safes and some "editions".
How can you be sure about what he would vote?

Apocalypse has changed A LOT over the years, the original Apocalypse would feast killing humans and weak mutants not fitting the so-called "survival of the fittest" motto.
However the current Apocalypse has made lots of adjustments to his ways.
Sure, he despises Strife and I totally agree he wouldn't want him resurrected.
But the current Apocalypse is building an army for his own reasons, he needs powerful mutants helping him and Maddy was very powerful.
While he could perfectly vote no to resurrect her he could do the opposite.
Spoiler: show
At the end we are talking about the same person who have just sacrificed most of the High Lords without asking the Quiet Council (or well, the High Lords themselves) for permission.
Again, how can you be so sure about what Apocalypse would do?

The only thing we know is the Council voted and the majority voted no.
The captains don't vote. There was a tie in Marauders and it just stayed that way (clearly, not a very good system)

Scott not being outwardly emotional and suppressing his feelings is in character since Stan and Jack's days, and he's been shown to do that in Krakoa under Hickman, I see no difference here. And this is a version of Maddie, not even the original one, which essentially raped him during Fraction's run by sleeping with pretending to be with Emma. It's certainly understandable he would be...conflicted about the whole situation.

Those Maddies Sinister cloned weren't out there trying to murder him. He could, and probably would, resurrect a version of her if it came to be, but this one? Hell no!

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Fenix » 20 Sep 2020, 19:13

yet... what if they could do what they did with Vulcan and resurrect her as she was during the good Outback days, her most heroic version?

Scott suppressing his feelings it absolutely cannon, however Scott is not in the field or dealing with Jean or Emma, he is talking with his heartbroken brother who is very damaged at this moment and Scott stood cold and detached.
I agree this is Scott and there is nothing off about this, but it brings back why Cyclops is not my cup of tea sometimes.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 Sep 2020, 19:31

Fenix wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 19:13
yet... what if they could do what they did with Vulcan and resurrect her as she was during the good Outback days, her most heroic version?

Scott suppressing his feelings it absolutely cannon, however Scott is not in the field or dealing with Jean or Emma, he is talking with his heartbroken brother who is very damaged at this moment and Scott stood cold and detached.
I agree this is Scott and there is nothing off about this, but it brings back why Cyclops is not my cup of tea sometimes.

Umm but the X-Men didn’t change Vulcan...or are we ignoring a whole comic? Lol
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by norwichchris » 20 Sep 2020, 20:17

Blackcyclops wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 19:31
Fenix wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 19:13
yet... what if they could do what they did with Vulcan and resurrect her as she was during the good Outback days, her most heroic version?

Scott suppressing his feelings it absolutely cannon, however Scott is not in the field or dealing with Jean or Emma, he is talking with his heartbroken brother who is very damaged at this moment and Scott stood cold and detached.
I agree this is Scott and there is nothing off about this, but it brings back why Cyclops is not my cup of tea sometimes.

Umm but the X-Men didn’t change Vulcan...or are we ignoring a whole comic? Lol
Uh... Yes they did how else do you explain the fact that neither Havok or Corsair reacted hostiley to his presence? Very clearly had his mind altered as we see in X-Men series the demons from another dimension also altering his mind.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 Sep 2020, 20:36

norwichchris wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 20:17
Blackcyclops wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 19:31
Fenix wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 19:13
yet... what if they could do what they did with Vulcan and resurrect her as she was during the good Outback days, her most heroic version?

Scott suppressing his feelings it absolutely cannon, however Scott is not in the field or dealing with Jean or Emma, he is talking with his heartbroken brother who is very damaged at this moment and Scott stood cold and detached.
I agree this is Scott and there is nothing off about this, but it brings back why Cyclops is not my cup of tea sometimes.

Umm but the X-Men didn’t change Vulcan...or are we ignoring a whole comic? Lol
Uh... Yes they did how else do you explain the fact that neither Havok or Corsair reacted hostiley to his presence? Very clearly had his mind altered as we see in X-Men series the demons from another dimension also altering his mind.

“very clearly”? Did you not read X-Men #10?

Matter of fact, I know you did because you left a bunch of very similar comments in that thread.

Just as a refresher...weird aliens, “changed” Vulcan while he was floating in the void. Not the X-Men. Corsair and Havok aren’t hostile toward him because this is a new era for mutants (see: all the times you’ve brought up villains on Krakoa lol).

I mean, I get it, you don’t like something but that doesn’t mean the rest of us have to ignore what happened in the actual comic.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 20 Sep 2020, 22:53

Fenix wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 19:13
yet... what if they could do what they did with Vulcan and resurrect her as she was during the good Outback days, her most heroic version?

Scott suppressing his feelings it absolutely cannon, however Scott is not in the field or dealing with Jean or Emma, he is talking with his heartbroken brother who is very damaged at this moment and Scott stood cold and detached.
I agree this is Scott and there is nothing off about this, but it brings back why Cyclops is not my cup of tea sometimes.
There's really nothing Cyclops can do in that situation- if he goes around more openly complaining or trying to defy the decision, that means the main military authority of Krakoa is in the defiance or openly protesting against the decisions of it's main governing body, which is...well, an institutional crisis if there ever was one (and one we'll probably see in Hickman's run eventually, but now it's too soon).

I'm also not sure how much sympathy should be required in a situation in which your brother, that has spent half of his adult life complaining about you, often for pure jealousy, is distraught because someone who's a copy of your dead ex-wife (but not really the original one) and has raped you (and also slept around with someone who's biologically the son of both of you) was killed in action while she was trying to murder thousands of people for petty reasons. And that while the original version tried to murder you, your baby son, your friends, and the entire world, and your brother kinda went along with it for a while because he was sleeping with her while the two of them were pretending to be dead without bothering to inform you.

The point is, Scott is way, way more tolerant of Alex than most people would be. Probably too much so.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 Sep 2020, 23:24

When you say it like that, the plot of Inferno sounds like REALLY ridiculous lol...

I love comics...
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Cable » 21 Sep 2020, 00:48

As I said last issue
Cable wrote:
31 Aug 2020, 16:41
Inferno was a natural endpoint for the character. Nothing that has come after has added anything.
Throw this on the pile too. The sudden ending to Maddy makes this again an unnecessary dragging up of the character. With her not being resurrected maybe she can finally rest in peace.

I feel this story would have been just as strong without her presence. The Marauders were enough to bring up Sinister's experiments. Everything other than Maddy really worked for me in this arc and her undeveloped appearance actually knocked it down a peg.
Best Comics of Week 47

Best X-Comic: Hellions #6 by Zeb Wells (1) and Carmen Carnero (2)
Best Non-X Comic: Marvels Snapshots Avengers by Barbara Kesel (1) and Staz Johnson (1)

In parentheses number of times creator has had best comic of week this year

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 21 Sep 2020, 02:18

Blackcyclops wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 23:24
When you say it like that, the plot of Inferno sounds like REALLY ridiculous lol...

I love comics...
The plot of Inferno is, mostly, fine. For all it's problems, it was a good story.

However, Maddie's return afterwards, as Cable indicated, didn't add anything; hell, that's incorrect, it detracted from the character- not only it wasn't technically the same one, but that one turned into a villain with a sympathetic background to a completely irredeemable monster.

Also, some writers don't seem to realize (Remender and Rosenberg, I'm looking at YOU!) that have Havok whine about Cyclops just makes him look unsympathetic and petty.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Sep 2020, 02:34

No, Inferno is bonkers..no way around it. You can like it and still thinks its bonkers lol...

Unsympathetic? That’s debatable...I’m sure it’s people who have felt that way about being in someone else’s shadow before. While it might not appeal to you, it’s possible others would feel differently (also didn’t CC write the story where you describe Havok in such terrible) terms lol...)
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 21 Sep 2020, 06:56

Oh, Inferno is bonkers, but the good kind.

And it's not like the writers were presenting a thoughtful reflection on what's like to have a larger than life figure you're constantly compared to (made even more complex by the fact Cyclops is not someone interested in fame, glory or spotlight), there's just Alex ranting. And you know who keeps whining about being outshined by another superhero? Supervillains.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by norwichchris » 21 Sep 2020, 10:46

This is what I can't get my head around and has admittedly made me very hostile towards Hickman run they are too forgiving of former villains and are all acting extremely out of character as if something had changed within them. It is important to note none of the mutants on the Island are aware of Moira's previous we always lose lives so why would they be so comfortable on the same island with people who have done them more physical and emotional harm than humans ever will (excluding Genosha).

This Comic has pretty much shown to me that Sinister is pure evil and can't be trusted to not act against the Krakoa for his own interests.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Sep 2020, 11:05

I mean you can disagree (which has been debated to death on this forum and I’ve personally seen no compelling argument against the mutants allowing all mutants on the island) but you can’t ignore what happened in X-Men #10. So yeah, nobody on Krakoa changed Vulcan...so let’s stop that line of thought.

Also, that’s a big statement to say more than humans ever will...like since you brought up Moira and we see in all of her lives, it is what humans do that end up ending mutant life. Not an “evil” mutant but I mean, do you lol
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 21 Sep 2020, 14:33

I don't think you can say people are too forgiving of former villains- no one in Excalibur seems to have forgotten who Apocalypse is, no one really trusts Sinister, the Marauders clearly dislike Shaw (and now want him dead), and Wolverine openly complained about the villains joining (which doesn't mean he's the only one with a problem, he's just usually the first to complain about anything). It's just that part of the plan was present an unified front to the world to the first time, it worked, and most of the bad guys are behaving so far.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Cable » 21 Sep 2020, 15:03

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 14:33
I don't think you can say people are too forgiving of former villains- no one in Excalibur seems to have forgotten who Apocalypse is, no one really trusts Sinister, the Marauders clearly dislike Shaw (and now want him dead), and Wolverine openly complained about the villains joining (which doesn't mean he's the only one with a problem, he's just usually the first to complain about anything). It's just that part of the plan was present an unified front to the world to the first time, it worked, and most of the bad guys are behaving so far.
They made it so literally half of their governing council that decides their laws is composed of villains. That in itself is too forgiving. Although if you want you could argue from a realpolitik point of view that it was necessary to try to put aside the threat of them (or even further to harness it for your own ends) so focus could be on the flatscans.
Best Comics of Week 47

Best X-Comic: Hellions #6 by Zeb Wells (1) and Carmen Carnero (2)
Best Non-X Comic: Marvels Snapshots Avengers by Barbara Kesel (1) and Staz Johnson (1)

In parentheses number of times creator has had best comic of week this year

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Sep 2020, 15:15

That’s a real broad definition of forgiving and I think that’s the problem here. But I don’t want to re-litigate this again because every point had already been made, like right above.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by EphemeristX » 21 Sep 2020, 16:12

I don't think it's all forgiveness, but I do think it is a very pragmatic choice.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 21 Sep 2020, 17:36

Cable wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 15:03
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 14:33
I don't think you can say people are too forgiving of former villains- no one in Excalibur seems to have forgotten who Apocalypse is, no one really trusts Sinister, the Marauders clearly dislike Shaw (and now want him dead), and Wolverine openly complained about the villains joining (which doesn't mean he's the only one with a problem, he's just usually the first to complain about anything). It's just that part of the plan was present an unified front to the world to the first time, it worked, and most of the bad guys are behaving so far.
They made it so literally half of their governing council that decides their laws is composed of villains. That in itself is too forgiving. Although if you want you could argue from a realpolitik point of view that it was necessary to try to put aside the threat of them (or even further to harness it for your own ends) so focus could be on the flatscans.
The issue is that once you decide to bring people like Apocalypse, Sinister and Exodus to the island, you can't relegate them to the sidelines or minor roles, because they're just too powerful. The real problems in the council are Mystique (which there's really no reason why Moira or Magneto wouldn't just kill her off and leave to the bottom of the resurrection pile) and Shaw (this is probably more of a dramatic choice to set Marauders up).

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 21 Sep 2020, 17:36

Cable wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 15:03
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 14:33
I don't think you can say people are too forgiving of former villains- no one in Excalibur seems to have forgotten who Apocalypse is, no one really trusts Sinister, the Marauders clearly dislike Shaw (and now want him dead), and Wolverine openly complained about the villains joining (which doesn't mean he's the only one with a problem, he's just usually the first to complain about anything). It's just that part of the plan was present an unified front to the world to the first time, it worked, and most of the bad guys are behaving so far.
They made it so literally half of their governing council that decides their laws is composed of villains. That in itself is too forgiving. Although if you want you could argue from a realpolitik point of view that it was necessary to try to put aside the threat of them (or even further to harness it for your own ends) so focus could be on the flatscans.
The issue is that once you decide to bring people like Apocalypse, Sinister and Exodus to the island, you can't relegate them to the sidelines or minor roles, because they're just too powerful. The real problems in the council are Mystique (which there's really no reason why Moira or Magneto wouldn't just kill her off and leave to the bottom of the resurrection pile) and Shaw (this is probably more of a dramatic choice to set Marauders up).

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Sep 2020, 17:59

Why kill off Shaw when really the only person he’s personally aggrieved is Emma/Kitty? He holds sway in the human world and is a mutant, and Krakoa is for all mutants.

The only only reason not every mutant is resurrected is because of Moira’s choice because precogs can see the future. Otherwise, there shouldn’t be (if Krakoa is for all mutants) any mutant who is off limits.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 21 Sep 2020, 18:19

You misunderstand me, I didn't say Shaw should have been killed. It was only Mystique, which they should have known would cause problems because of Irene- she already tried to killed Moira once, after all, and is not someone Krakoa can't really live without.

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