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Hellions #4

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Blackcyclops
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Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 12:12

That was very anticlimatic...
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Flapflop » 16 Sep 2020, 12:39

Sadly everything probably had to be editorial mandated finished before X-of Swords started. This series started wel but with this anticlimatic ending the storyline and even whole series now has no meaning at all (or i dont see it yet) exept for some blood and gore.

And (the current) Scott is a soulles jerk.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 12:58

Flapflop wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 12:39
Sadly everything probably had to be editorial mandated finished before X-of Swords started. This series started wel but with this anticlimatic ending the storyline and even whole series now has no meaning at all (or i dont see it yet) exept for some blood and gore.

And (the current) Scott is a soulles jerk.
Again, the “editorial mandated” (even though everything has to havr an editorial mandate since editors make deadlines and all those type of things) excuse :roll: when something isn’t good...

Swords of X wasn’t planned up last week (even though it was expanded, it always was covering the entire line). Clearly the writer had to know that the story was going to happen when they started issue 1, since this book was going to crossover with it from the jump (so they always knew #5 would be a part of that story). So they had 4 issues to resolve their story from the get-go.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Flapflop » 16 Sep 2020, 13:56

Blackcyclops wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 12:58

Swords of X wasn’t planned up last week (even though it was expanded, it always was covering the entire line). Clearly the writer had to know that the story was going to happen when they started issue 1, since this book was going to crossover with it from the jump (so they always knew #5 would be a part of that story). So they had 4 issues to resolve their story from the get-go.
Then they didnt think good enough about the story from the get go. Maybe it was better to start with something that didn't feel rushed in the end and make this one a bigger story afterwards. Had more potential in turning into a new Inferno.

And again it seems Marvel just doesn't like Maddy, or at least don't know what to do with her. But that already started as soon as they retconned the Dark Phoenix and making her a clone. Also Scott been a jerk to Maddy almost from the get go, even before he knew Jean was still alive. Ok, he loved her but also treated her as a rebound and always loved the memory of Jean more. He even left her as soon as he heard Jean was alive without even blinking to Maddy or little Nathan.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 16 Sep 2020, 14:24

I liked it. It seemed anticlimactic, but that was by design. Not all stories have to end in triumph.

And how was Scott a jerk here? The decision to not bring back Madelyne wasn't his.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 15:11

I mean they did triumph though...

They just built up Maddy and then to kind of have it all end like that felt like it wasted her.

Plus honestly, if you bring back Maddy you at least use her as a big bad. And with alot of things built up in DoX, one offing a big character like her felt like a waste. I think last issue could’ve done more and then that way this issue would’ve had more pay off.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by InsipidLust » 16 Sep 2020, 17:25

The only thing that really disappointed me about this was how easily Maddie was dispatched. Otherwise, I thought it was a fine (but not excellent) story, and the supplementary prose was nice to read. I also liked that they posed the question about whether or not it made sense to resurrect Maddie.

This was a character study in some ways, but it could have benefited from more depth. Using Maddie as a set piece wasn't a great choice for that narrative approach, as it set up something "big" when the story was essentially meant to be small otherwise. I'm keeping this on my pull list because I think it still shows promise and is by no means "bad", but I will be expecting a better balancing act in the future.

Also, as one of the world's leading Kwannon apologists, I will simply say that I would like to see more of her.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 16 Sep 2020, 17:30

Blackcyclops wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 15:11
I mean they did triumph though...

They just built up Maddy and then to kind of have it all end like that felt like it wasted her.

Plus honestly, if you bring back Maddy you at least use her as a big bad. And with alot of things built up in DoX, one offing a big character like her felt like a waste. I think last issue could’ve done more and then that way this issue would’ve had more pay off.
I really don't see how Madelyne could be a realistic threat to Krakoa. In the council alone, half of them have a decent chance of finishing her off solo.

She could add to the Summers family dynamics there, but they probably felt it was too complicated even for them.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 17:40

She doesn’t have to be a threat to all of Krakoa, that’s not what I said. I was implying her as a big bad for this book, meaning this particular team. And with her magic, she more than has that. But to dispatch her so easily feels like a waste for such a rich character. And not because of her history because she psychologically has alot to pull from and play off with the mental distress that this book is built on.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 16 Sep 2020, 19:21

The issue is that she's got such an insanely complicated backstory that this character is not really the same original Maddie...maybe, being a projection of X-man originally. And she's not the same character that appeared in that Sisterhood arc in Fraction's run...maybe, not to mention her origin is very convoluted to begin with.

They also got rid of X-man and Dark Beast recently, it's not a coincidence.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by EphemeristX » 16 Sep 2020, 22:12

I don't think this is the end of Maddie on Krakoa.

I also don't think this arc needed to be four issues. But I guess there wouldn't have been time to get another one in before XoS.

X-Man and Dark Beast aren't clones, though. They're alternate reality versions of characters we know. But I see your point. They seem to be thinning the herd of extras. I wonder if poor Scout would also be barred from being reborn if she died.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by norwichchris » 16 Sep 2020, 22:53

Is it possible that Darkbeast is the actual Beast they just merged the two together to make him more ruthless for X-Force?

X-Man is in an alternate universe think and won't be back for a long while.

Often wonder after reading this if editors and writers actually are aware of what is going on in the wider series.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 22:58

norwichchris wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 22:53
Is it possible that Darkbeast is the actual Beast they just merged the two together to make him more ruthless for X-Force?

X-Man is in an alternate universe think and won't be back for a long while.

Often wonder after reading this if editors and writers actually are aware of what is going on in the wider series.

Like what in this particular issue makes you wonder that?
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by das_boot » 17 Sep 2020, 01:25

Blackcyclops wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 22:58
norwichchris wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 22:53
Is it possible that Darkbeast is the actual Beast they just merged the two together to make him more ruthless for X-Force?

X-Man is in an alternate universe think and won't be back for a long while.

Often wonder after reading this if editors and writers actually are aware of what is going on in the wider series.

Like what in this particular issue makes you wonder that?
Questions with answers that no good can come of.

I enjoyed this. It didn’t feel like a full story, it certainly felt a bit rushed in parts, but I wonder if we’d feel that way if, again, we were already hip deep in SoX.

This... it didn’t move the earth. It solidified itself as the title that I find top of the middle of the pack/bottom of the top of the pack. There’s themes that are building here and I really do feel like maybe a fifth issue would have allowed some of the silliness of Nanny to distill a little without being as jarring as I found it in parts. Wildchild’s story beats feel a little like repeating Teon’s, but okay. Okay.

I really enjoyed that no one REALLY cared that Empath was dead. It really felt like cementing him as the sociopath/psychopath of the team and while I wouldn’t be overly traumatised if this team ends up with a rotating cast and Empath’s not rushed through resurrection protocols, I’ll find this quite hilarious in a reasonably dark way.

Havok... sorry guys, I just don’t care all that much about his story, and Maddy just didn’t QUITE feel right to me... Kwannon... hm. So, I have to admit, I’m still really struggling to separate her from 90’s ninja Psylocke and I really just wish that the writers hadn’t gone with calling her Psylocke and kept her as Revanche and I get that this might just be my own personal cognitive dissonance but I really wish they’d either change the costume or change the name. It’s a minor grumble that I’ve wasted far too much effort typing about, anyway.

I trust Wells as a writer and I’m still excited to see where he’s going with this, but I’d really like him to twist the story a little more soon.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by EphemeristX » 17 Sep 2020, 10:30

To be fair, Wild Child was depicted like this back in AoA.

I understand why, editorially, Kwannon was given the Psylocke name and kept all of the ninja-Betsy trappings like the knife and the butterflies and the purple hair. It's a very strong, iconic property. Sure, sexiness was a big reason for her popularity explosion, but she's also hella cool. This way, the writers get to have their cake and eat it too, without the weird race bending appropriation dialogue. Think of all that merchandise that doesn't have to get changed or go away or get marked with an asterisk. It's Kwannon now. I'm (mostly) okay with that.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by norwichchris » 17 Sep 2020, 15:42

I'm unsure really with kwannon keeping the Psylocke name. Betsy started out as Psylocke not kwannon but she is know Captain Britain.

I was interested in the altercations between Sinister and Nanny when she accused him of killing of mutant clones which think we're not fully developed was a bit confused by this scene.

Also liked how Greycow showed some suppose empathy with rest of the Mauraders killing of the Sinister clones but afterwards telling the resurrected ones to go there own way. Do think it would be interesting if they show up with other X-Men teams.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 17 Sep 2020, 15:57

Nanny found canisters with dead mutants in them.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by norwichchris » 17 Sep 2020, 17:17

This is the part that confused me a bit are they actually dead mutants or discarded clones of the Mauraders? I remember that he used maurader clones as guards at his bases these were like only to last a limited time.

I would imagine Sinisters cloning process was trial and error much like the Jackals in Spiderman before he did it successfully.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Magnus » 18 Sep 2020, 04:54

Guess that explains why it seemed like the writer was uninterested in establishing 'which' Madelyne this was... because she was just gonna get offed right away.

There is quite an interesting philosophical question raised regarding clones and the resurrection protocols, though. Despite being a clone of Jean, it could be argued Madelyne was very much her own person. And you could say the same is true for twins. Makes you suspect the Council decided on it as an excuse because it was easier to just not bring her back.

I agree though that the actual team is still underwhelming. Wild Child was better here but I still don't find him interesting, and Peter/Nanny were basically wallpaper except for maybe Nanny's last page. Other than Kwannon and Scalphunter (and Empath lol), still not that interested.

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by EphemeristX » 18 Sep 2020, 09:44

Am I in the minority? I'm fascinated by Nanny and Orphan Maker and I want someone to actually come and tell me more about them. I loved Claremont's original run, but his "I'll tell you later" schtick left quite a few characters and plotlines in the dust.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2020, 13:04

EphemeristX wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 09:44
Am I in the minority? I'm fascinated by Nanny and Orphan Maker and I want someone to actually come and tell me more about them. I loved Claremont's original run, but his "I'll tell you later" schtick left quite a few characters and plotlines in the dust.


No 100% agre...I want to know everything about Nanny. Like what is underneath the armor.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Fenix » 18 Sep 2020, 13:19

Magnus wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 04:54
Guess that explains why it seemed like the writer was uninterested in establishing 'which' Madelyne this was... because she was just gonna get offed right away.

There is quite an interesting philosophical question raised regarding clones and the resurrection protocols, though. Despite being a clone of Jean, it could be argued Madelyne was very much her own person. And you could say the same is true for twins. Makes you suspect the Council decided on it as an excuse because it was easier to just not bring her back.

I agree though that the actual team is still underwhelming. Wild Child was better here but I still don't find him interesting, and Peter/Nanny were basically wallpaper except for maybe Nanny's last page. Other than Kwannon and Scalphunter (and Empath lol), still not that interested.
I think it is very intentional, I highly doubt Maddy is to stay dead this time as she is one of Mr Sinister's favourite toys, and also it looks like Alex wont let it go even if that means challenging Krakoa and forming an alliance with Sinister, would we be surprised if that happens?

Wells will probably go into more details about this Maddy as the storyline, which is probably far from over, moves on... or Maybe Sinister modifies her and we get yet a new version.

I liked the issue even if Scott's and the Council decision felt extremely cold towards one of them, Cable's real mother and Scott's former wife.
Yes, she is a clone but she is also her own person with her own life. This opens a debate about clones and what makes them unique or deserving of the resurrection protocols...

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Re: Hellions #4

Post by EphemeristX » 18 Sep 2020, 13:34

Jean's on the council, so I imagine she had some input there. And Storm would 100% back up her best friend. And I imagine the Hellfire side of the council would veto her resurrection completely, given their history, while the villain side likely wouldn't care. Of the 12, I think Nightcrawler, Mystique, and Xavier would probably be the only ones for her return with Magneto and Exodus abstaining.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by manuel_mc89 » 18 Sep 2020, 19:05

Do we think that Jean would be against Maddie returning? I recently read Inferno for the first time and I felt that she ended up feeling sorry for her. And while I do remember Jean wanting to be her own person, without deals with duplicates like the Phoenix or like Maddie, she did ended up seeing things from her perspective so I believe she would be merciful towards this woman, unlike Xavier, Magneto and Sinister, who I believe would have more qualms regarding the complication for the protocols, by having clones running around. I think Jean would have sympathy.

Also, that is part of X-Factor's whole ordeal, to stablish wether if someone should be resurrected and to avoid duplicates.
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Re: Hellions #4

Post by Fenix » 18 Sep 2020, 20:36

EphemeristX wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 13:34
Jean's on the council, so I imagine she had some input there. And Storm would 100% back up her best friend. And I imagine the Hellfire side of the council would veto her resurrection completely, given their history, while the villain side likely wouldn't care. Of the 12, I think Nightcrawler, Mystique, and Xavier would probably be the only ones for her return with Magneto and Exodus abstaining.
Well, objectively I think:

Apocalypse would vote yes to Maddy's resurrection as she is extremely powerful. I resist to believe he would let Maddy become such a waste. Yet he could vote no as well.

Magneto would probably abstain as they didnt interact over the years, at all. But he could also vote no as he doesn't have any feelings towards her and using just logic and the current rules... Maddy is a clone.

Xavier met Maddy during those initial years, he was there when Maddy helped the Xmen during the Asgardian Wars and Maddy brought a lot of joy and happiness when she gave birth to baby Nathan providing Scott with a very earned and deserved happy ending. He never experienced what happened to her later on, her corruption (as she was a victim, never forget this) and suicide. Yes, she is a clone but she is NOT Jean in any aspect appart of genes/looks. Xavier would vote yes to resurrect Maddy.

Exodus would abstain or follow Magneto's vote.

Mystique would abstain or vote no, she either doesn't care or would oppose as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

Mr. Sinister should vote yes for obvious reasons. Yet voting no so he can work in the backstage and fulfill his own agenda would make sense. Same goes for abstaining, it all depends in what plans he does have for Maddy.

Shaw would vote yes. They even had a fling. Maddy could be a tool, a powerful tool, and Shaw is playing his own game, as usual.

Kate would vote have mixed feelings. She would be in a similar position as Xavier, Nightcrawler or Storm. However Kate has evolved into something else, and she does try to be more pragmatical and less sentimental. So Im going for a no to resurrect Maddy.

Emma would vote NO. There is not one good reason for Emma to vote different. Maddy is Scott's ex-wife, she is crazy, she is a pain in the ass, she even made Scott cheat on her when they were together... Why would Emma want Maddy running around Krakoa? So clearly NO to resurrect her.

Nightcrawler would vote yes to resurrect her.

Same would go for Storm, who was a witness to Maddy's most tragic and heroic side, and how she was corrupted beyond any help the Xmen could give her. The Xmen ultimately failed her and lost her, Storm would try to give her a chance to redeem herself.

Jean. Well, Jean and Maddy merged their memories. If anybody knows Maddy well, more than Scott, that's Jean. Jean replaced Maddy in many ways (as Scott's partner, as Nate's adoptive mother) and is directly responsible for Maddy's downfall and later corruption.
My bet is Jean still feels responsible for Maddy's fate and is absolutely aware of this debt that she can't possibly pay. Jean is used to doppelgangers, alternate timelines children and cosmic entities roaming around her... Maddy is ultimately Jean's "twin sister" and Jean would vote yes to resurrect her.

Do Captains have a vote?
Im not sure.
If they could vote...

Scott would clearly vote NO. I dont think he should vote no yet it is mostly clear he didnt want her to be resurrected.
Bishop would vote no as it goes against the resurrection protocols rules, no clones.
Magik would vote no, there isn't any reason why Magik would want another demonic sorceress with ties to the Limbo and S'ym/N'Astirh that was partially responsible for her destruction/back to child.
And Gorgon would vote no as he just doesn't care about her and it goes against the resurrection protocols rules.

So my guess:

Yes: Xavier, Jean, Storm, Nightcrawler, Shaw.
No: Mystique, Magneto, Exodus, Emma, Kate.
Dubious: Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse.

And all the Captains would vote no so...

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