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Excalibur #12

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Blackcyclops
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Excalibur #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 11:29

This was basically a companion piece for Swords of X and X-Men...sucks to be those Externals lol
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by das_boot » 16 Sep 2020, 15:51

I mean, I’d argue that Howard is Hickman’s second in command on the X-Line right now, and as a result, this entire book has been where Apocalypse’s plots and schemes have been building steam after the initial revelations in X-Men about Arrako. I think calling this a companion book to X of Swords when it’s this title that’s essentially set the scene for “mutant magic” is a little bit of an oversight— this is the book where we’re getting lore, mythology, AND character development which isn’t something a lot of the other books are managing to hit with any consistency.

I really enjoyed this book— after a couple of wobbly issues (caused by the delays, not the quality of writing), I’m definitely back on board. Howard is an absolute pro at keeping multiple plates spinning at once and misdirecting the readers whilst still delivering issue after issue.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 16:01

So would it be better to call it the prologue/buildup?

I used companion since this is the book where Apoccy’s plots to return to Arakko were being built up, we get the Otherworld significance, and Swords are a thing in this book...all pieces of Sword of X. It wasn’t meant to be disparaging though. I’ve always liked this book because it has alot of things happening each issue (very dense) and it has interesting character development. And I’m one of the few people not trying to replace the cast with more UK characters like a draft lol
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by norwichchris » 16 Sep 2020, 22:48

We'll it has grown on me, I wanted to like but due to my feelings about Apocalypse it didn't sit well with me.

Maybe think of it as a prelude to X of Swords.

Shocked that Gambit chose to sacrifice Candra the way he did. It was ruthless of him felt as he may have needed her.

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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by das_boot » 17 Sep 2020, 01:52

Blackcyclops wrote:
16 Sep 2020, 16:01
So would it be better to call it the prologue/buildup?

I used companion since this is the book where Apoccy’s plots to return to Arakko were being built up, we get the Otherworld significance, and Swords are a thing in this book...all pieces of Sword of X. It wasn’t meant to be disparaging though. I’ve always liked this book because it has alot of things happening each issue (very dense) and it has interesting character development. And I’m one of the few people not trying to replace the cast with more UK characters like a draft lol
Ummmm you’re not trying to replace the cast with UK characters? I cast YOU out, you fake anglophile!

I’d have said this wasn’t so much the companion/prologue/build-up as it is the book that ties in most effectively. I mean, I dunno, maybe I’m reading too much into it, but this absolutely feels like the book that’s exploring the themes of what it means to be a mutant and also magical, or how mutants BECOME magical, and that’s a thread that started in HoX/PoX, continued/was referenced in X-Men and then spins out here... I’m explaining this poorly.

I’d say this is the thematic lead for XoS, given that Apocalypse is one of the key players of the event. Kind of like how Necrosha was a tie in that was primarily X-Force’s story but span into other titles... I feel like this is THAT title for XoS.

Did that make sense? I feel it did, but it’s hard to tell.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 17 Sep 2020, 02:10

No, I see what you’re sayinf. And you’re right...It seems like Howard and Hickman are the primary architects of this story...
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Quick and Dead
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Quick and Dead » 17 Sep 2020, 03:41

It doesn’t seem like, they are. Hickman and Tini Howard are billed as co-writers on next weeks Creation issue.

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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by manuel_mc89 » 18 Sep 2020, 19:07

So, Apocalypse chose Rictor over Magma for any reason in particular? Because it feels like this is something she could've done without any power boost.
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Quick and Dead » 18 Sep 2020, 19:11

I guess he needed Rictor because his connection the druids and magic mumbo jumbo.

I stil feel like this book could be a bit more coherent. When this arc started, Betsy said she was going to the Citadel to talk to Saturyne about why the Citadel was closed off from her. Then it suddenly became this mission to plant a gate there.

=

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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Fenix » 18 Sep 2020, 20:47

Gambit's relationship with Candra has been problematic over the years, I would say Candra has been one of Gambit's main antagonists... yet this felt cold and cruel.
Betsy's Butterfly signature effect is gone, its been several issues and I kept noticing she doesn't display her powers in that way anymore. I cant stop feeling sad about it as it feels like making Jean blonde or removing Spiral's arms.

Rictor's powers upgrade is more like a secondary mutation than an accurate upgrade, his powers were not working in such a way ever... as manuel said Apocalypse could have used Avalanche or Magma and upgrade them without being so dramatically changed.
I cant stop thinking we are missing something else with Rictor and Apocalypse, the fact Rictor was such a loyal servant in the AoA and that he is being manipulated so easily here seems analogue.

I felt really sorry for the Externals and correct me if I didnt get it right but it is very cruel their bones are meant to be permanently used as a gate preventing them from ever resurrecting...
Is the bloody Quiet Council happy about Apocalypse doing this to some fellow mutants who joined Krakoa and deserve the same protection as the rest of the mutants residing there? They didn't even know what was happening till the very end and they couldn't even decide their fate.

Im not completely sold in the story that is being told in this book, and how these characters are moving forward.

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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by norwichchris » 20 Sep 2020, 14:31

I too dislike the Gambit betrayal, felt he wouldn't do that in any situation and he stated he never trusted Apocalypse.

I don't think Betsy's powers work the same when she is Captain Britain? does she not have different powers?

Interesting enough was reading Age of Apocalypse last week and remember him being a loyal servant of Apocalypse and his markings on the face seemed similar. Think he may be trying to recruit him, don't like him being compared to a druid.

Apocalypse will never change he will always use others for his own benefit and advancement especially if they are weak or a threat to him. Felt sorry for them don't think the council knows he has killed them permanently yet.

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 Sep 2020, 14:35

What’s wrong with Rictor as a druid?

Betsy presumably has her old powers plus the abilities of a traditional Captain Britain.
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by InsipidLust » 20 Sep 2020, 14:41

manuel_mc89 wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 19:07
So, Apocalypse chose Rictor over Magma for any reason in particular? Because it feels like this is something she could've done without any power boost.
Well, one reason may be that Rictor was in a pretty vulnerable state when Apocalypde came along in this story. What better way to secure somebody’s loyalty than to help them when they desperately need it and then tie their purpose up with yours?

Magma is, on the other hand, might not have been so easy to draw in. Also, she hates Selene, so all of this would have been pretty awkward.
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Magnus » 20 Sep 2020, 17:22

FWIW's the little tag on the comic for this one says "Prelude to X of Swords" whereas others like Marauders have the tag "Path to X of Swords." Though for some reason X-Men #11 got a tag and X-men # 12 got no tag at all.
Quick and Dead wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 19:11
I stil feel like this book could be a bit more coherent. When this arc started, Betsy said she was going to the Citadel to talk to Saturyne about why the Citadel was closed off from her. Then it suddenly became this mission to plant a gate there.
I agree, while I liked the end point of where this arc ended up (setting up the X of Swords plot) getting there was a very confusing path. It also seems like the issue with the other X-Men being turned into Captain Britains was completely pointless? Maybe it's a plot point that will be picked up later after the big crossover but they're just hanging out in crystals under Saturyne's care. Or something.
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 20:47
Betsy's Butterfly signature effect is gone, its been several issues and I kept noticing she doesn't display her powers in that way anymore. I cant stop feeling sad about it as it feels like making Jean blonde or removing Spiral's arms.
They played up the butterfly motif very heavily in Fallen Angels, so I think maybe the conscious decision was made that it's Kwannon's thing and not Betsy's? I'm not sure, but wouldn't surprise me if Betsy's butterfly motif was pre-Kwannon though.

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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Fenix » 20 Sep 2020, 19:09

Magnus wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 17:22
FWIW's the little tag on the comic for this one says "Prelude to X of Swords" whereas others like Marauders have the tag "Path to X of Swords." Though for some reason X-Men #11 got a tag and X-men # 12 got no tag at all.
Quick and Dead wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 19:11
I stil feel like this book could be a bit more coherent. When this arc started, Betsy said she was going to the Citadel to talk to Saturyne about why the Citadel was closed off from her. Then it suddenly became this mission to plant a gate there.
I agree, while I liked the end point of where this arc ended up (setting up the X of Swords plot) getting there was a very confusing path. It also seems like the issue with the other X-Men being turned into Captain Britains was completely pointless? Maybe it's a plot point that will be picked up later after the big crossover but they're just hanging out in crystals under Saturyne's care. Or something.
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 20:47
Betsy's Butterfly signature effect is gone, its been several issues and I kept noticing she doesn't display her powers in that way anymore. I cant stop feeling sad about it as it feels like making Jean blonde or removing Spiral's arms.
They played up the butterfly motif very heavily in Fallen Angels, so I think maybe the conscious decision was made that it's Kwannon's thing and not Betsy's? I'm not sure, but wouldn't surprise me if Betsy's butterfly motif was pre-Kwannon though.
They tried to explain why Kwannon kept it but the butterfly effect has been Betsy years and years before she became a sexy japanese ninja.
I think they are trying to differenciate both women by erasing Betsy's signature power display BUT that is a mistake.
While I dont have any issue with Kwannon using it as she was not even a telepath prior to the whole body swap and it can be understood as "muscle memory" and that kind of stuff it feels wrong Betsy suddenly stop displaying her powers as she always did.
Whats wrong with both women having the same power signature?
I mean, Marvel cant erase their story, they were both merged then separated again, having the same Butterfly effect is a nod to their unique relationship and it was never needed to be erased. :roll:

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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Lavettye » 20 Sep 2020, 19:10

Magnus wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 17:22
They played up the butterfly motif very heavily in Fallen Angels, so I think maybe the conscious decision was made that it's Kwannon's thing and not Betsy's? I'm not sure, but wouldn't surprise me if Betsy's butterfly motif was pre-Kwannon though.
It was pre-Kwannon, but not pre-Psylocke. :D Way back, before Betsy ever joined the X-Men, she never had this butterfly effect. In those old Captain Britain stories, she was more of a precog than a telepath, and there was no distinct power signature.

Then when she became an X-Man, in one of her first issues, she was telepathically searching the mansion, which they portrayed by immaterial eyes floating in the various rooms, which then evolved into that butterfly signature without the eyes in the center of those butterfly wings. It was just the artists's way of showing her using her power, and I'm not even sure that it is supposed to be a visible effect.... I mean clearly it's visible for us readers, but I'm not sure the characters in the books have ever referenced seeing that energy shape. It also would be kind of counter-effective... how would Psylocke telepathically spy on someone, when there's a bright pink energy construct hovering in mid-air announcing her presence ?

Anyway, British Psylocke was already using the butterfly shape in UXM #213-251 (when she stepped in the Siege Perilous). That said, though, she still clearly is telepathic in the current Excalibur run and there have been pink energy constructs around her head/eyes in Exc# #10 and 11, that look at least like partial butterfly effects. And indeed, her wielding a magical artificact that allows her to generate a psi-blade and shield would be a good enough explanation why her power signature looks somewhat different. It's more of an explanation than what we got when she first started using the butterfly signature all of a sudden.
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Re: Excalibur #12

Post by Cable » 21 Sep 2020, 01:27

Magnus wrote:
20 Sep 2020, 17:22
FWIW's the little tag on the comic for this one says "Prelude to X of Swords" whereas others like Marauders have the tag "Path to X of Swords." Though for some reason X-Men #11 got a tag and X-men # 12 got no tag at all.
Quick and Dead wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 19:11
I stil feel like this book could be a bit more coherent. When this arc started, Betsy said she was going to the Citadel to talk to Saturyne about why the Citadel was closed off from her. Then it suddenly became this mission to plant a gate there.
I agree, while I liked the end point of where this arc ended up (setting up the X of Swords plot) getting there was a very confusing path. It also seems like the issue with the other X-Men being turned into Captain Britains was completely pointless? Maybe it's a plot point that will be picked up later after the big crossover but they're just hanging out in crystals under Saturyne's care. Or something.
Yes you basically mirror my thoughts. I think this is a book that will read better in TPB. Reading it issue to issue it was sometimes hard to understand what it was trying to do. Now as we go into X of Swords everything is making more sense. But it is strange that there were certain points like those other Captain Britains that are just brushed off. With Hox/Pox in general I feel like we maybe need a whole thread keeping track of dangling plot points that have been thrown up in the air.
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Best Non-X Comic: Shang-Chi #3 by Gene Yang (1) and Dike Ruan (2)

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