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X-Men #12

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Blackcyclops
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X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 10:59

So before we talk about likes and dislikes, can we just parse all the new info?

One thing, we learn that Apoccy’s schemes in Excalibur are connected to traveling to Arakko (which is a nice thoroughline). We learn Apoccy’s wife name: Genesis.

Now, Arakko is in Limbo or Otherworld? I’m alil confused on that. At first I thought Limbo but now I believe Arakko , which is in Amenth, is actually in a land “pass” Otherworld.

So this Purity guy (who wields the White sword), was a mutant and could resurrect the dead. And the cycle of resurrection has become his religion...put a pin in that for now.

Isca was mutant who defected, because her power is to not lose.

So the god of Amenth is Annihilation...which for a second I thought was Annihilus. But I see it’s an Egyptian motif baddie who does rule over daemons and stuff.

Also, Okkara (the connected Krakoa and Arakko) was breached by a Twilight sword, was that that the Soulsword or Excalibur I wonder?
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Flapflop
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Flapflop » 16 Sep 2020, 12:29

Hickman is really world/new lore building here. You either like it or not, depending probably if youre open to new worlds/lore of Hickman or are fanatic about the old X-men mythos. I like it, though admit its totally diffrent then we ever had before.

So now we also know the main theme where X- of Swords will be about:
Spoiler: show
the war with Amenth/Annihilation and that constant resurrection can lead to a religion that can become violent (whats to loose, you can try over and over again until you succeed). And we even get a clue who the mysterious Egyptian character is who will lead the opposing forces in that crossover.
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das_boot
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by das_boot » 16 Sep 2020, 20:59

I mean... I didn’t hate this? But it just felt a little disjointed to me. Maybe I’m splitting hairs here but I’d have preferred if the little scenes with the summoner playing games with the kids had been spread over a few more issues... even just one more would have made the difference slightly I feel. I also feel like this just confirmed what had previously been confirmed about Rockslide’s power?
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Blackcyclops
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 21:09

It gave a full definition to it.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by norwichchris » 16 Sep 2020, 23:00

I don't think they are in Limbo but in one of the hell dimensions that exist, if the twilight sword is the soulsword which is possible limbo it could be think They would have noticed a load of Mutants fighting a never ending war.

I am a little suspicious of the Summoner anyone else?

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Sep 2020, 23:41

Well after reading Excalibur it’s pretty apparent to me that they aren’t in Limbo (so those first assumptions were wrong) but in some land beyond Otherworld, not a hell-dimension. Given how other reality/realms are laid out in the MU, it probably doesn’t fit any real world model.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by das_boot » 17 Sep 2020, 01:31

Yeah, another world that’s sealed from Earth but you can get to via Otherworld is the way that I read it, which would make sense because Otherworld’s always been more nexus-y/nexus-like/nexusesque, yeah I prefer nexusesque, than most other worlds, so it stands to reason that even if the way to Arrako or whatever is sealed off because Apocalypse and his horsemen blocked it off permanently from Earth, that they would need to enter it via Otherworld?
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by norwichchris » 17 Sep 2020, 08:42

BC is correct, the best analogy is Otherworld is a central train station. To get to Arroko you have to first get to Otherworld and find the correct track there.

The track between Earth and Arroko was severed probably by falling power lines or leaves on the track🙂

I wonder though how the Summoner said It are there any mutants left for them to save? My feelings are Apocalypse is walking into a trap...

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Monolith
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Monolith » 17 Sep 2020, 17:19

The last few pages made it clear Summoner is a servant of Amenth, i.e. the bad guys. He, and his account, should not be trusted at all.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 17 Sep 2020, 17:47

Monolith wrote:
17 Sep 2020, 17:19
The last few pages made it clear Summoner is a servant of Amenth, i.e. the bad guys. He, and his account, should not be trusted at all.

See I thought the account, the pictures, was true but his words and sentiment were not.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by manuel_mc89 » 17 Sep 2020, 18:03

Ok but, what kind of power "not losing" is? I mean, i would understand it if it would work like Domino's in that your powers would subconsciously get you to win, but here it seems that she is compelled to deflect to the winning team? Its such a character flaw to have someone like that on your team, she would ditch you if she perceives you are going to lose.

Also, also, i really hope the whole Rockslide situation is setting him up to have him explode (his energy) to save the day later on.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by norwichchris » 17 Sep 2020, 21:03

Unsure it could be the Summoner is being mindcontrolled? Possibility. However most of the solicitations seem to indicate that Apocalypse horsemen still live? Remember the purity guy can raise the dead but it could be they revive without souls like Fitzroy in Bishops time?

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2020, 00:09

Summoner, given the data page, is almost certainly not mind controlled.

I’d wager that Genesis actual won and took the place of Annihilation, thus ruling Amenth.
Spoiler: show
The teaser shows that Isca and Purity are members of the bad guy group, along with Summoner, so that guess looks to be more true than not.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Magnus » 18 Sep 2020, 04:48

Happy to see some more followup with the Summoner and his 'game' with Rockslide but the art really threw me off (is Rockslide inside the little tiny Rockslide piece? Is he still there in real life? When did he put on so many pounds on his stomach?). Then I said, okay, cool, big backstory issue... but man did it have a lot of new people/places that kinda just went past me and I had to read it again.

So, if I'm understanding correctly...
Spoiler: show
- Long long time ago, there was an island named Okkara. There were mutants there (the 'first generation'?)
- An enemy used the Twilight Sword to break Okkara apart into two islands, Krakoa and Arakko.
- The chasm created between the two islands is an opening to "that dark world" (Limbo? Otherworld? somewhere else?) that a bunch more enemies poured through.
- Apocalypse (who is the "first mutant of the second generation") and friends show up and manage to push the enemies back to the other world, but Arakko gets pushed in too. Apocalypse stays on Earth, but it's unknown if he did so out of heroism or selfishness.
- Apocalypse's wife, Genesis, and apparently the Four Horsemen, stay on Arakko and get pushed to the dark world.
- Arakko gets pushed onto the "fallen" world of Amenth (I guess this is the 'dark world'?) But thankfully the White Sword has already been killing people on Amenth, so Arakko has time to settle in and build up their defenses, raising ten towers.
- Amenth's armies finally show up, but the mutants of Arakko continually hold them off, for thousands of years.
- The Summoner is born 300 years ago. His "crib mate" (sibling?) Idyll predicts the falls of the towers, so Genesis takes an army and sets out on the offensive.
- After about 20 years of conquest, they disappear, apparently having reached the stronghold of the White Sword. The White Sword is an External who continually leads his 100 Champions out to fight until they die to the last man, and he then resurrects them and repeats the process. Doing this for too long has made him a bit of a religious nut (hint hint X-Men...).
- The White Sword decimates Genesis's army, but after six years she and a few others somehow escape and return to Arakko.
- When they return, they find that Isca (mutant power "can't be beaten") has switched sides to Amenth, since they're going to win. Isca comes to Genesis with a request from Annihilation (the god of Amenth) to parlay.
- Genesis agrees and duels Annihilation in a fight to the death, with the fate of Arakko in the balance. Genesis loses and is killed. Annihilaton's armies then attack Arakko.
- The Summoner is sent to Earth to try and find Apocalypse with hopes he can rally a new army of mutants to save Arakko.
- Some other group of Arakkoans seek out "a different sort of salvation" with fate unknown.
- Apocalypse sends Banshee and Unus to accompany the Summoner back to Arakko ("across Otherworld") while he raises his Krakoan army.
After being able to take it in a second time, all in all it's actually not a bad setup, kinda interesting. I think the biggest confusion is a lack of sense of where Arakko "is"... being introduced to a new world, not clear in what universe, Otherworld, Limbo, etc. And then it just shows up here again (need to go back and re-read issue #2 I suppose... 10 months ago...)

But this story actually has me a lot more interested in X of Swords than all the "EVERYONE HAS SWORDS!!" stuff we've seen so far. And I agree that there's a LOT of room for parts of the Summoner's story to be misleading or outright false. How Genesis escaped from the White Sword is a clearly mystery hook, and I'd wager the true backstory about what happened between Apocalypse and Genesis in their split will probably be important (is that who Apocalypse wants his revenge on?). And I agree with BC that my guess is that Genesis actually beat Annihilation and took his place.

I'm not sure if I like or hate Genesis as his wife's name, given that it's Evan's moniker too. On one hand, you can say he was taking his mother's name in honor. On the other hand, it's stupidly complicating. I guess it does help that (based off Hellions #4) we probably won't be seeing Evan get resurrected any time soon.

Isca's power is stupid. I hope we find out it's not a real power but she just is really good at changing sides when needed.

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by EphemeristX » 18 Sep 2020, 09:47

I'm just spitballing here about Isca. What if her powers are some kind of potential probability precognition where she sees all possible outcomes and takes the best course of action? And she simply saw no future where they would win?

Or, it's all bullshit on the Summoner's part and that's not what happened at all.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2020, 11:29

A spoiler
Spoiler: show
All the promos call her Isca the Un-Beatable, so I think there is some truth to it.
@Magnus:

-It doesn’t really say if they are the 'first generation’, i thought perhaps that was a way to remindus that Apoccy isn’t the first mutant but that people like Selene and Azazel are older and form a 1st generation of mutantkind. Since nothing so far has contradicted that Apoccy was born in Egypt or that Selene and company didn’t exist.

- I think at this point it’s safer to say that Amenth is a next to Otherworld. We have to remember that for these mystical otherworldly realms “world” is kind of a euphemism for “different place” sometimes That these realms have geography and layouts that aren’t the same as they are in the “regular” reality. And this is supported by the idea that to reach Amenth they will go across.

- I think the cribmate thing and really most of the talk of Arakko is to demonstrate a parallel with Krakoa and it’s resurrection protocols and “Make More Mutants”
[/Spoiler]
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by elixir86 » 18 Sep 2020, 18:30

I went back to check the Summoners data page and the numbers shown in X-Men 2 and those in X-Men 12 are complementary:
Attachments
xmen2.png
xmen2.png (332.45 KiB) Viewed 444 times
xmen12.png
xmen12.png (317.33 KiB) Viewed 446 times

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by EphemeristX » 18 Sep 2020, 18:32

So their numbers are growing.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by elixir86 » 18 Sep 2020, 18:44

no I think more that there's a fixed number of summoners, divided into two factions, the summoners of Arrako and of Amenth

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Fenix » 18 Sep 2020, 20:55

I should have seen something like this coming yet I didn't and i didn't like that much.

This sets a massive departure from previous continuity, it doesn't just set some details or create a bunch of characters including the original horsemen but a whole first and second mutant generation, worlds or dimensions and a whole new timeline to be fit somehow together with several other timelines (like Moira's missing life or several other stuff we are just letting go for the sake of the story but that Hickman is not even hinting or partially revealing so far).

Im not sure Im liking this whole new turn, and the vague narrative doesn't help to understand how this puzzle works.

I guess time will work and help me catch up and even like this stuff.

Either Hickman really makes my head explode and I love it absolutely or I will just dislike it totally as this is nothing like his FF/Avengers stuff that was much more continuity friendly and complementary.

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2020, 21:27

New extradimensional worlds are a dime a dozen...no need for hand wringing over that part of the expansion of the mythos.

I can see the grimace over old mutants but a different world and aliens aren’t hurting the x-line.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by _Rick_ » 18 Sep 2020, 22:42

While I respect Hickman's ability to create so much lore in an issue, this seems to be another example of a recurrent problem with his writing: he needs to find a way to ground the over the top scifi elements as he introduces them. He needs to balance out the info dumps with satisfying character beats.

The whole "lives of Moira X" issue worked well because it had a beloved character (one that long term readers would be familiar with) at it's core. There is no equivalent emotional anchor here so it ends up falling a bit flat. Do I care if Isca truly betrayed them? Not really. Am I sad that Genesis might have lost that fight? Not especially. Am I worried for the last towers that protect Arakko? Not in the slightest. Do I pity the White Sword for seemingly having lost his way? Why should I? I don't know any of these characters so their triumphs or defeats don't phase me. Add in the fact that these events are being told through someone who might be an unreliable narrator and I'm really struggling to care about anything that I see on the page. Yu's art also doesn't help in building a connection to these new characters due to how unemotional a lot of the faces are. It's like reading a lore book of a franchise that I am unfamiliar with. I can recognize the depth of it but I feel very little attachment to the details.

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Re: X-Men #12

Post by EphemeristX » 19 Sep 2020, 01:47

elixir86 wrote:
18 Sep 2020, 18:44
no I think more that there's a fixed number of summoners, divided into two factions, the summoners of Arrako and of Amenth
Oh wow, I didn't even make that connection. The totals do add up. Thank you for that, elixir.
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by Monolith » 19 Sep 2020, 01:57

It's hard to argue with math, but it seems odd.

The second info page basically said "Summoners of Amenth are evil! Know them by their mark! Never trust anyone with this mark...!"

...Except, I guess the Summoners of Arakko, who are good guys and wear the same mark?
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Re: X-Men #12

Post by norwichchris » 20 Sep 2020, 14:25

It seems likely to me that the Summoner is setting Apocalypse up for Amenth and his army to invade Krakoa. Remember he has the ability to resurrect his army and he defeated Genesis and the other mutants left behind were on the verge of defeat.

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