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X-Force #12

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Blackcyclops
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X-Force #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Sep 2020, 12:59

Wolverine is a true hero...
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Flapflop » 09 Sep 2020, 13:05

I concur

Beast does it again, being the self rigtheous bastard that thinks he is doing what is necessary it for "the greater good", and this makes him a clear and present danger.
Last edited by Flapflop on 09 Sep 2020, 13:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Sep 2020, 13:08

That Beast guy punch felt like a nice callback to the gut punch Cyclops got in the animated series lol

Also, I just want to say that for everyone who’s all like “oh no, the X-Men have villains on their island”...just know that your stance against them is shared by Beast. That’s right, you’re in the same camp as Hank “I’ll experiment on myself first” McCoy...
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Fenix
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Fenix » 09 Sep 2020, 18:39

Honestly, I grew up loving Beast.
He was awesome in Avengers, every time he came to help the Xmen (against Mesmero, Magneto or during the Dark Phoenix Saga) made him feel like family, reading him in the Defenders showed a different and less goofy side of his persona and X-Factor definitely gave us a ride on a rollercoaster with his character and every development in that short run.

Then... what happened to him? He went through a lot with the whole Legacy Virus and the post House of M consequences, mostly breaking up with the Xmen and what they used to mean, often making deals with the devil for "the greater good".
I want to like him, but it seems like every Xmen comics he appears in depicts him more and more as a villain and less as the hero he was once.
The difference between Dark Beast (AoA) and Beast keeps fading away and this Beast has now more in common with his evil counterpart or Mr Sinister than with the merry Beast that joined the Avengers.

X-Force is all about this, but it is troubling how Hank is descending to a very morally grey person.
If Jean, who is probably one of his best friends in the World ever, dumps him and wants nothing to do with him or X-Force then he should start thinking he needs help and somebody to put him on check quickly.

Loved the issue as it reflects what us, readers, think of him and questions our own opinions in regards of other ongoing threads.

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das_boot
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by das_boot » 09 Sep 2020, 20:05

Okay, and I feel like you all have very valid points about Beast... but riddle me this:

He’s running a black ops team. Would we have been as mad if Wolverine, or Cyclops, or Cable gave the order to round up the Russian mutants? I totally agree that the last decade and or so has seen Beast sliding further down the spectrum to the point where he’s likely only a few points above Sinister at this point. But... we’ve just had the discussion a few issues back (maybe last issue?) that X-Force need to be seen to be taking some kind of proactive stance rather than just reacting to situations. While this is still true this issue, and they’re absolutely reacting, Beast is trying to wrest control of the situation... like... are we mad that he’s doing this because he’s taken Colossus and lumped him in the same category with Omega Red? Or are we mad at him for divorcing himself from his feelings and doing the job he’s supposed to be doing as the head of X-Force?
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by InsipidLust » 09 Sep 2020, 22:40

I probably would be irritated with any of those men mentioned if they took the same approach as Beast.

I for one think that having a “dirty hand” black ops team is important to running a world government in the context that mutants find themselves even if the concept is morally awful (both in real life and in this fictional universe; it’s horrific, but I see why it’s deemed necessary even if I do hate it in so very many ways).

But I’m mad at Beast (as usual) because despite being a genius, his decisions (as usual) are clumsy, ham-handed and not particularly well considered over the short or long term in my opinion. His chronic imprecision in developing solutions and his remarkably solid record for creating solutions that add up to even WORSE problems is pretty annoying to me (even if it makes for compelling conundrums). Others mentioned here have made similar blunders, sure, but with Beast they seem like... a core personality trait. “My morally grey choices are usually disastrous and clumsy in their heavy handedness” is like his thing.
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Sep 2020, 22:48

Yeah, I think when you compare Beast (let’s ignore him making himself into “Beast” and even his Morrison era stuff) just since bringing back the 05, he’s taken a much more “I know better than you” approach than Cyclops (who did take unilateral action but never in a smug way and really had that responsibility kind if hoisted upon him) or Logan (he is the archetypal sin-eater and will rather the pain burden fall on him than others, whereas for Beast he thinks he knows better).

What separates Beast even from his two closest contemporaries in “I’m a mad scientist who thinks they can solve the world’s problems” in Tony Stark and Reed Richards is there is almost zero humility, rumination or change in actions. While Stark is outwardly more arrogant than Beast, his internal monologue is riff with self-doubt and loathing (and he is a bit of a sin-eater too). And Reed is more pious than Beast, there is an admittance of fault inherent in Reed because of the guilt he carries (and let’s be honest, unlike Stark or Beast, Reed is alot more “right” in his endeavors which usually softens the fall from grace and his attitude is not as rough).

Don’t get me wrong, I think it makes Beast a much more interesting character but it makes you want to punch him in the gut lol
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by das_boot » 09 Sep 2020, 23:21

You both raise really good points there for me to consider, thank you.

@Insipid— I entirely agree that black ops teams whilst maybe necessary here, aren’t exactly helping to assuage any fears that baseline humans might have for mutants. Furthermore, I can’t help but feel that there’s an attempt at a real-world parallel with a nation seeing Russia as an issue to their own political power.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Sep 2020, 23:30

Oh it’s 100% on purpose...but also, the RussiaN govt is a kind of a real world villain for some people around the globe (as are we tbf).

But I mean, this Black ops X-Force is probably the LEAST undesirable of all incarnations. They’re about as bad as the Secret Avengers lol
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by SMidnite » 10 Sep 2020, 07:30

Let's see Beast try that trick with Magik.

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by WorldWideWade » 10 Sep 2020, 15:40

SMidnite wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 07:30
Let's see Beast try that trick with Magik.
Interesting. Magik would theoretically be required to go through the same treatment as she is as tied to Mikhail as Colossus. I wonder if they will address this or ignore it. Maybe there will be a throw away line of her immunity because she is a captain, but that would make this plan make even less sense.
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by norwichchris » 10 Sep 2020, 16:44

Well to be fair we did provoke Russia an awful lot into the current relationship, never tried to openly make peace with them if at all. The world seems to think the Cold war never ended. Unsure like the real world being shown in comics, felt this way when the Purifyers attacked the mansion in NXM.

Can't see how anyone can justify Beast's actions? Mutants are aware that Russia is hostile towards them, and Colossus even rescued a bunch of Russian mutants way back (which issue?) nearly dying in the process. How exactly is parading him around and locking up all the Russian mutants supposed to promote unity on Krakoa? may cause the opposite effect and what right does Beast have to behave in this way? Also why would he assume that Colossus would betray them as he has mostly wanted to be left alone as a farmer? if he has been brainwashed then read his mind simple as that.

Cyclops for me was more justified in his actions as he has always had command responsibilities which means doing or getting others to do the dirty work its the reason Xavier made him leader of the X-men. He recognised it was necessary to take out mutant threats before they become more serious. Beast is so incompetent he nearly committed genocide and has pretty much rubbed the entire team up the wrong way and tries to cover up his mistakes far too much.

Magik would drop beast into a volcano if he dared lay a hand on her.

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Sep 2020, 16:47

We (the USA and the West) actually did try to make peace (technically we are at peace) with Russia...what do you think 1989-until Putin was?
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Fenix » 10 Sep 2020, 20:00

The problem with Beast is not that he is doing "his job" and trying to be proactive with the whole X-Force concept, the problem is:

- Beast has been pretty critical with Cyclops for doing exactly the same. Yet he wiped a whole alternate universe in Astonishing Xmen (or something like that) during the Ghost Box storyline, played God with the Illuminati and played God again by bringing the OG5 Xmen to the present.
Its not a mistake but several big ones with no remorses at all.

- Beast has always been a scientific, he is on par with Reed, Hank Pym, Tony Stark or T'challa, but while all these characters kept their souls more or less intact over the years we must admit Beast is about to become best friends with Sinister and this is a massive departure from the merry and funny Beast he was once, like comparing the old Beast with Dark Beast (AoA).

- Beast has always been very attached to his friends, his bromance with Wonder Man is iconic or his close friendship with the original Xmen and some other members like Nightcrawler and Psyl... Betsy have talked loudly about his personality and how Beast interacts with the World.
Seeing Beast mess up with Jean or treat Colossus as he did in this issue is a big departure again.

If we compare Beast to other characters like Cyclops, Cable or Wolverine we have an immediate problem.
Cyclops is the most pragmatic Xmen, he is a tactician and whatever he does he probably does it for good reasons.
Im not saying Beast doesnt have his reasons but if Cyclops was a dick for many things he did during the Utopia era (and Beast voiced it personally) then Beast is now a dick as well.
Wolverine and Cable are expected to be blunt, act first think/explain later, so if any of them would be in Beast position running this X-Force we would not be as surprised as they already fit the role, there is no departure as they would do these kind of things.

Btw, if Illyana finds out what Beast has done with Colossus it can happen that Beast does end in a volcano :-)

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by norwichchris » 10 Sep 2020, 20:32

Well from 1989 - 2000 Russia was politically weak and the west promptly expanded towards there borders, built missile defence shields and expanded there armed forces towards them acting as if the Cold War was heating up. The Cold War for many never really ended it now has more sides than before China/Russia/EU and USA.

Beast/Dark-Beast always fascinated me as how a person could be completely different yet be same in another darker life. They were very similar and had twisted Morales and think Beast is taking a turn for the worst and will end badly.

Cyclops was very good tactician, organised his team so well he got Magneto to work for him. He was a dick often but it was for the right reasons and he always for the most part planned it out or had higher goals in mind. Tried his best to avoid alienating his friends and team mates as well something Beast doesn't seem bothered about.

He also seems more arrogant than Cyclops in that he is right always whereas Cyclops had room for self-doubt.

Please let Illyana find out and we see it in the comic :D :D :D

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Magnus » 25 Sep 2020, 23:05

My LCS finally got this issue in, couple weeks later.

So Beast is J. Edgar Hoover now? There's zero reason to suspect Colossus (I can understand suspecting Omega Red, given how much he's worked for the Russian government before, though I doubt he's involved), but the text page seems to acknowledge that and make it sound like Beast just wants to round up all the Russian mutants as a big show to spread a little fear. Which is pretty batshit insane, and I have trouble buying that the council, even with all the ex-villains on it, would support this... sure, someone like Magneto or Apocalypse likes fear, but in their enemies, not amongst their populace. The whole thing feels like a very on-the-nose Red Scare allegory that doesn't work for me. I can't ever see Beast actually thinking something like "A little fear and paranoia keep people safe. It's possible our citizens may come forward with valuable information about their neighbors. It's certain our citizens will know that being watched is the same as being watched over."

Also zero explanation for how Mikhail is back after being locked away in Colossus Bloodlines.

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Sep 2020, 23:23

Well we have to possibly get that...he did just appear.
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by EphemeristX » 26 Sep 2020, 03:46

Well, with a bunch of mutants being brought back, it's possible that there are now enough Rasputins that there's no reason for Mikhail to stay.

And we don't know for sure the Council even knew about Beast rounding up Colossus and Omega Red. I'm sure they do now, but it could've been a move Beast did without their consent, like the plant people.
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Re: X-Force #12

Post by norwichchris » 27 Sep 2020, 17:12

Personally it would be interesting if maybe Rasputin is inhabiting Mikhail's body? confess hacn't read Collossus blood ties as didn't the story was worth reading.

I wonder though given what Beast did to Colossus, could he potentially leave Krakoa and go with Mikhail to Russia?

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by Magnus » 28 Sep 2020, 05:10

EphemeristX wrote:
26 Sep 2020, 03:46
Well, with a bunch of mutants being brought back, it's possible that there are now enough Rasputins that there's no reason for Mikhail to stay.
I thought the whole point of the going to the Dark Zone was that 1) Mikhail would never die, so he'd always be the 'last Rasputin' and 2) he couldn't escape, so if Rasputin did take him over, he'd be trapped... but upon re-reading the last issue I suppose point #2 wasn't explicitly spelled out. I suppose it's possible if Rasputin overtook Mikhail he wouldn't know how to use his powers? I dunno. I'm probably thinking about a stupid comic from 15 years ago far more than anyone at Marvel is.
And we don't know for sure the Council even knew about Beast rounding up Colossus and Omega Red. I'm sure they do now, but it could've been a move Beast did without their consent, like the plant people.
Yeah, but the thing with the plant people is at least quiet (or intended to be) and the sort of thing the council would likely never find out about. This is a big public spectacle that should inevitably lead to a problem with the council, where the only real defense would be something like "I already did it, best move is to just go along with it now."

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Re: X-Force #12

Post by norwichchris » 30 Sep 2020, 16:54

Strongly suspect Xavier will have words with him over this its too much, Xavier wants all his students to live in pace on the island not be accused of being traitors and paraded around to make everyone fearful.

Not the society he wants to create, think Beast will get demoted from X-Force and moved along whilst Wolverine takes his place he is a better suited for the role.

No one on the Council bar Jean knew about the Plant people unsure is the population of Teirra Verde still alive or are they all dead? if they are all dead wouldn't someone else in the world find find out as well?

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