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X-Men #10

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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Jul 2020, 20:03

I think Kitty definitely seems like a case of drinking to deal with issues. Boom Boom seems to be something similar considering people she considers her friend have left her behind.
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Tessa1984
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Tessa1984 » 30 Jul 2020, 20:16

tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 20:03
I think Kitty definitely seems like a case of drinking to deal with issues. Boom Boom seems to be something similar considering people she considers her friend have left her behind.
Yeah, I see them providing those rationalizations. It just seems like a lot at once since Dawn of X began. Maybe that's my issue with it. The only x-character I can recall drinking a lot was Siryn back in the '90s and that always struck me as lazy stereotyping of an Irish character.

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Re: X-Men #10

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Jul 2020, 20:21

I feel like Forge had an issue too, but I could definitely be wrong.

There has been a lot recently though.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Jul 2020, 20:50

I’m with Token about that aspect. Kate was on a train wreck and as a story that delved into it (and still processing), it never felt as one-off. Tabitha’s drinking isn’t new for her though And again a part of an ongoing story about her and I’m sure if she was a male her doing it, it wouldn’t register with anyone.

For Petra and Sway, we’ve yet to explore them beyond that so they feel kind of throwaway.


Plus it’s not like people (particularly Americans) don’t drink a lot when celebrating any way...because they are celebrating a lot.

Sometimes it feels like some conservative tendencies (About sex and relationships and now drug use lol) come out on this board that You wouldn’t expect lol...
Last edited by Blackcyclops on 30 Jul 2020, 21:07, edited 1 time in total.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Jul 2020, 20:58

I don't know if I'd say that.

I think it's similar to Booty's take on the comment about mental health. We read into it what our life experiences have taught us. I, for instance, have issues with "mutants should be with mutants" as a stance I feel this new era is putting out because I have bad experience with similar "black people should be with black people" mind thoughts.

When someone's dealt with specific issues in their life, in this case drinking, and it's being concentrated into a smaller area they may feel it is overwhelming or uncomfortable.

I'm purposely avoiding the other two topics, yes.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Jul 2020, 21:08

That may be true Token...

I didn’t mean it as an insult either...just that it’s funny how they can seem to come out when you might not expect. Especially when it’s whole threads about some pretty wild things lol...you can get under the false impression that there’s a social consensus on something you know? Like sex, sexuality or now drug use...
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Tessa1984
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Tessa1984 » 30 Jul 2020, 21:40

Blackcyclops wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:08
I didn’t mean it as an insult either...just that it’s funny how they can seem to come out when you might not expect. Especially when it’s whole threads about some pretty wild things lol...you can get under the false impression that there’s a social consensus on something you know? Like sex, sexuality or now drug use...
I enjoy a good drink, partake in illicit drug use, am quite sex positive and still think the depiction of drinking is weird lol.

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Re: X-Men #10

Post by das_boot » 30 Jul 2020, 21:50

Tessa1984 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:40
Blackcyclops wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:08
I didn’t mean it as an insult either...just that it’s funny how they can seem to come out when you might not expect. Especially when it’s whole threads about some pretty wild things lol...you can get under the false impression that there’s a social consensus on something you know? Like sex, sexuality or now drug use...
I enjoy a good drink, partake in illicit drug use, am quite sex positive and still think the depiction of drinking is weird lol.
YES TESSA (I don’t partake in illicit drug use, but the rest I do).

This really just seems like the title Hickman wants to make specifically to piss off the conservative readership who keep going on about writers forcing an agenda of diversity... and instead he’s almost making a mockery of pansexuality, polyamory and definitely drinking. I don’t even think it’s me being more conservative or whatever it’s just... this is trying to be shocking for the sake of being shocking. Nothing more or less.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Jul 2020, 21:54

Tessa1984 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:40
Blackcyclops wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:08
I didn’t mean it as an insult either...just that it’s funny how they can seem to come out when you might not expect. Especially when it’s whole threads about some pretty wild things lol...you can get under the false impression that there’s a social consensus on something you know? Like sex, sexuality or now drug use...
I enjoy a good drink, partake in illicit drug use, am quite sex positive and still think the depiction of drinking is weird lol.
You move beyond Sway and Petra here and it’s Really just a lot of celebratory drinking on Krakoa( every series has almost featured a party and people presumably drinking...Logan has drank somebody under table not too long ago, a familiar trope for him)...the two possible major exceptions to the celebratory drinking are Kitty and Tabby. Every other time is people drinking to celebrate their freedom and independence.

I admit that Token is right Though about it Impacting people differently based on their life experiences because again until we got to these two In this book (which like I said before are just weird for a lot of reasons) I never saw anything odd or off In the other books. Especially for Tabitha...if she was a guy character I don’t think anyone would notice.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by InsipidLust » 30 Jul 2020, 21:57

das_boot wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:50
Tessa1984 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:40
Blackcyclops wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:08
I didn’t mean it as an insult either...just that it’s funny how they can seem to come out when you might not expect. Especially when it’s whole threads about some pretty wild things lol...you can get under the false impression that there’s a social consensus on something you know? Like sex, sexuality or now drug use...
I enjoy a good drink, partake in illicit drug use, am quite sex positive and still think the depiction of drinking is weird lol.
YES TESSA (I don’t partake in illicit drug use, but the rest I do).

This really just seems like the title Hickman wants to make specifically to piss off the conservative readership who keep going on about writers forcing an agenda of diversity... and instead he’s almost making a mockery of pansexuality, polyamory and definitely drinking. I don’t even think it’s me being more conservative or whatever it’s just... this is trying to be shocking for the sake of being shocking. Nothing more or less.

I don't know if he's doing this specifically to make these people mad so much as he's just depicting them with the regularity with which they occur. Not really a necessary depiction in my opinion, but I could see how a writer might think that all of this is pretty boilerplate whereas the opposite is pretty unusual (though, in my opinion, decidedly more likely in an institution and now a society that is largely a paramilitary operation). It is a little bit much and is probably intentional inasmuch as Hickman is trying to show mutants in a state of relaxation, but it hasn't seemed particularly strange or hamfisted to me so much as it is just different from the usual "we don't do anything but sit in a state of high alert or undress" activities of the X-Men.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by medium13 » 31 Jul 2020, 01:11

But, also like the one thing I hate the most when I'm sober is drunk people. Most of the time when I'm reading, I'm sober. So why do I want to read about how great these margaritas are? I'm bored.

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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Oldmanlogan79 » 31 Jul 2020, 10:36

Tessa1984 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 21:40

I enjoy a good drink, partake in illicit drug use, am quite sex positive and still think the depiction of drinking is weird lol.
100%

Maybe in next issues we come to discover something else of these girls... but this two appearances since they were resurrected shows us a somewhat basic characterization.... as with Scott and Logan talking about swimsuits and bikinis and their current "bi" situation (it is there because it is, is new and has no explanation apart than Hickmans fantasy in poor script lines) , from my point of view I see very poor scriptwritng in these examples, I think it's the worst thing about Hickman at the moment and I don't know if he intends to fix it.
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by norwichchris » 31 Jul 2020, 10:55

Honestly all the sex and drinking reminds me of Game of Thrones hopefully won't have a disappointing ending.

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Wings
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Wings » 31 Jul 2020, 13:19

I don't think the depiction of polyamory/pansexuality is mocking as much as it seems that the books (not just X-Men) don't want to use it as more than window-dressing. I might be proved wrong down the line but at the moment, we don't have insight in to what the emotional implications of a poly/open relationship are for Scott, Jean, Logan or Emma or what the actual structures of their relationships are, how other characters react to it, whether this is common on Krakoa, if so, why, etc. It's just sort of there.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Blackcyclops » 31 Jul 2020, 13:32

Well you already saw how Northstar feels about it in X-Factor, sort of...similarly in Excalibur between Rogue and Gambit.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Wings » 31 Jul 2020, 15:53

Did we? I remember Rogue and Gambit having a conversation about not having kids in Excalibur but not about polyamory. All I saw from Northstar was that he didn't want Daken anywhere near his husband or talking to him about how he wanted to sleep with Aurora.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Blackcyclops » 31 Jul 2020, 16:01

Wings wrote:
31 Jul 2020, 15:53
Did we? I remember Rogue and Gambit having a conversation about not having kids in Excalibur but not about polyamory. All I saw from Northstar was that he didn't want Daken anywhere near his husband or talking to him about how he wanted to sleep with Aurora.

I kept my descriptions vague so as not to spoil those books (didn’t feel like typing in the little spoiler tag thingy lol) but that’s actually exactly what I meant. In both instances, we saw characters specifically sticking to more traditional notions of relationships (and marriage)...demonstrating imo that not everybody is all vague innuendo or hot “single” jacuzzi but that they follow what people traditionally expect to see in superhero comic relationships. It’s a contrast to what we see here or in X-Force (which is imo much more explicit) for citizens of Krakoa.

I know you wanted examples of the polyamory being explored but I was just pointing to the opposite still being a thing and showing the contrast...and really the allowance of a diversity of relationship types.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by EphemeristX » 31 Jul 2020, 22:29

If I lived a tragic life and died on my first superhero mission, then woke up after like 15 years only to find out that mutants are living on a tropical sex-positive, immortal party island and the one guy you remember is part of the most powerful family dynasty on that island, I'd probably be behaving alot like Petra and Sway. At least at first.

Give writers time to develop them and we'll see where they're at in a little bit.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Lavettye » 31 Jul 2020, 23:02

A wise friend suggested to read this with the idea that Petra and Sway aren't really there, but are just figments of Vulcan's imagination. While I don't think that's actually the case here, surprisingly both #10 and their scene in X-Men #8 work quite well that way.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Criticalfan » 01 Aug 2020, 02:19

Re: them not being real
They did die before Thunderbird did, which is also before Xavier started working with Forge & Sinister during HoXPoX. If that's the reason he's not back, it applies even more so to them.

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Re: X-Men #10

Post by EphemeristX » 01 Aug 2020, 02:38

Changeling is back. He died way before Thunderbird (and Petra and Sway).
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by norwichchris » 01 Aug 2020, 13:19

Well technically the original Krakoa island was shot into space so it is impossible for him to have already planned this out before then. He would have met Moira and been exposed to her lives long before he founded the X-men as they were I believe at College together? (please correct me if thats wrong?)

He would however had had a backup imprint of Petra,Sway, Changeling and Thunderbird on Cerebro for storage anyway and maybe he began working with Forge before the X-men first met him he just never told anyone which is like him.

Sinister is easier to explain as he had already began taking everyone DNA long before they came together they just encouraged him to focus more on mutants.

Not entirely sure they are real or not? as none of the imperial guard reacted to Vulcans appearance? he was there Emperor for a time

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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Cable » 02 Aug 2020, 01:56

It is weird because I feel there are some people here who like HOX/POX more than I do and yet X-Men less lol. If you asked me overall if I like the HoX I would firmly say no, but there have been several issues of this title that I enjoyed. I am appreciating all the threads Hickman is planting and am willing to wait on the payoff for now. This was a nice development of Vulcan, much improved from the awful Summer House issue seen earlier.

I will say though that I didn't read Deadly Genesis and thus have no insight at all into Petra and Sway. Is this how they always acted or do their personalities seem different?
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Lavettye » 02 Aug 2020, 02:27

norwichchris wrote:
01 Aug 2020, 13:19
Well technically the original Krakoa island was shot into space so it is impossible for him to have already planned this out before then. He would have met Moira and been exposed to her lives long before he founded the X-men as they were I believe at College together? (please correct me if thats wrong?)

He would however had had a backup imprint of Petra,Sway, Changeling and Thunderbird on Cerebro for storage anyway and maybe he began working with Forge before the X-men first met him he just never told anyone which is like him.
Indeed, Xavier gained the knowledge from Moira long before he ever formed the X-Men, still he didn't have access to all the parts needed to set his plan in motion.

But that flashback with Xavier and Forge in PoX #5 is clearly set at a later date. During their converstion the Beast is mentioned and refered to as "doctor" (placing this at least after Hank initially left the X-Men and wrote his dissertation) and it is also said that this would be the third or fourth update to Cerebro. Additionally, when they discuss a power source and the storage capacity required to dowload all these mutants minds, Xavier revealed that he had access to Shi'Ar tech, namely an anti-matter engine and so called logic diamonds, that have unlimited storage capacity for all the recorded data and back-ups. Xavier first met the Shi'Ar in UXM #104 and then lived with them for a while from UXM #118-128, before he returned to Earth.

So the tech to record an entire person was only perfected after Changeling, Thunderbird, Petra and Sway had died... and yet we have seen them in DoX issues. I've long wondered how that can be, and was hoping Hickman will explain it eventually. Maybe those minds were downloaded during a brief incident when someone reanimated their corpses (X-Humed, Necrosha, Chaos War), or maybe Xavier time-traveled with Illyana to collect those mental imprints?

Or, and this idea might also explain Petra's and Sway's behaviour, there's a few mutans who have been brought back not as perfect copies but as mere clones and had then their memories partially telepathically restored (by downloaded some information from other people, who knew Petra and Sway when they were alive)
Cable wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 01:56
I will say though that I didn't read Deadly Genesis and thus have no insight at all into Petra and Sway. Is this how they always acted or do their personalities seem different?
Both have detailed profile entries at the UXN. They acted nothing like this, though both appeared for no more than 5 issues, and as some of the others said, they have gone through something very traumatic. There is reason for them to be changed, but to change like this?

Just looking at their profile entries again made me realize that they had in common that both lost their parents. Petra's were killed in a landslide she may have accdientally caused when her powers emerged, and Sway's were killed in a shooting, and she hadn't mastered her power yet to save them. Back when they were a team, Gabriel had no idea who his parents were or what became of them, so they all were orphaned in a way.
And now, post resurrection, they see Gabriel being a respected member of THE mutant family, and they are just a couple of mutants who nobody never knew and who got killed on their first mission.
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Re: X-Men #10

Post by Magnus » 02 Aug 2020, 19:52

One thing I liked about this was the use of the crossover. Let the main Empyre stuff stay in its own title (and associated X-Men: Empyre book) and just use it as a backdrop to continue a plotline here, that being Vulcan's circumstances. The story would've worked equally well with any random invading aliens for Vulcan to fight; but makes sense to use the planet people since they're here at the time.

I didn't read Petra and Sway as clearly drinking to numb themselves over trauma... obviously Vulcan's got stuff going on, but all of Petra and Sway's dialogue to me seemed to indicate it was more of just a partying thing, wanting to drink and bang and such, the same sort of thing we're seeing all across the island. What the end point of that is, I can't say... could just be showing the mutants' hubris and overconfidence, could be trying to show some low-level mind-control/influence (get drunk, get horny, make more mutants, don't question, you're happy!); it's hard to say because Hickman's odd coldness kinda permeates everything. (Also, I like cheesecake more than most here, but Yu has P+S posing sexy in pretty much every panel which starts to get a tad much.) It certainly could be just an escape from trauma - plenty of good reasons as Eph and Lavettye point out. But I'm not sure that's what Hickman is going for, at least with those two specifically.

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