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X-Men #7

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Lavettye
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Lavettye » 04 Mar 2020, 00:26

There's only so many mutants the Five can bring back in a given time. I don't think the actual rate was mentioned anywhere, but with there still being About 16 million dead mutants needing to be brought back, it will take quite a long time to get to the bottom of the list. From the files on Synch's ressurection we learned that the longer the period between death and ressurection is, the more traumatic the experience is, because life moves on in their absence. Crucible earned Aero the right to be pushed the forefront of the ressurection list, just like the members of the Quiet Council seem to be on a permanent basis.

Additionally, there might be rules against ressurecting people who commited suicide. In a world, where a mutant no longer stays dead due to any natural cause, the only way to truly die might be an active choice. It's a question I pondered already shortly after HOX #5 was released. Do they ressurect people who commited suicide? Is it ethical to disregard the to be ressurected person's conscious choice not to live anymore? Even if the reason for committing suicide is no longer in place?
There being a protocol against ressurecting people who committed suicide would also explain why Sebastian Shaw told Shinobi a false story about how he died in Excablibur.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 04 Mar 2020, 02:09

HoX 5 actually details the numbers.
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Lavettye
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Lavettye » 04 Mar 2020, 05:56

Okay, so there is the answer.
It's what every hospital or basically every Institution in the social system does. Case files are ranked in priority to determine who gets treated first.

Melody's case and those of the other depowered people don't rank that high. At least they are alive, unlike the many millions of people who are not. Still for Melody personally, the idea of potentially having to wait 10-30 years for her powers to be restored seemed cruel, so she under went Crucible to jump ahead the line.

The Quiet Council might consider this an outweighing of Options. They need some justification for the public why they send Melody to the top of the line and everyone else is pushed back one slot. That would also be the "official" reason for the other mutants to be present in the arena. They all are there to witness why Melody is deserving of this, and why they have to wait for their personal friends and loved ones a little bit longer.

But in the end, this is just another "How much of our values are we willing to sacrifice" story.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 04 Mar 2020, 08:08

Honestly, as much as I hate the whole thing, more explanation into it would have potentially made it more palatable.

Seeing everything from Melody's POV would have been great. Maybe having her go before the Quiet Council and they present her with her options. Reading her thoughts as she fights against what is essentially an unbeatable force of nature. Reading her determination, which I'll be honest we SEE in her continuing to fight. We don't get that though.

I have more thoughts on this, but I'm throwing them in the DoX Directions thread.
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 04 Mar 2020, 13:34

Wonder what would happen if you get halfway through the Crucible but couldn't go through with it? A fear of death takes hold of you? And you get for your life?

Would you mind get wiped and then be told to leave? How would that make a depowered mutant feel?

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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 04 Mar 2020, 13:37

I doubt they'd wipe your mind, but you'd probably get healed, returned to your home, and lose your opportunity to regain your powers.
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 07 Mar 2020, 10:10

I hope they do a story about this and then have that depowered mutant feel humiliated and then become a villain that would be there fault. Actions have consequences that are unforeseen.

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Around The Fur
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Around The Fur » 10 Mar 2020, 15:26

Happened to be rereading POX and came across this- coincidence? The notion of willing sacrifice to become part of something bigger...
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 10 Mar 2020, 17:57

I read this online and I am know wondering would it have made more sense if i bought the entire graphic novel or downloaded it? sorry I just felt it wasn't very good to be honest online maybe better complete?

Both the librarian and melody are making a sacrifice to become something greater but I do still feel in Melody's case it was stolen from her so why should she have to prove she was worthy of being a mutant? it was not her fault she didn't take any mutant cure like say Rogue in X-men 3 the last stand.

The Librarian wants to ascend to something greater than himself but does have second thoughts.

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Lavettye
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Lavettye » 10 Mar 2020, 20:15

norwichchris wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 17:57
Both the librarian and melody are making a sacrifice to become something greater but I do still feel in Melody's case it was stolen from her so why should she have to prove she was worthy of being a mutant? it was not her fault she didn't take any mutant cure like say Rogue in X-men 3 the last stand.
You inability to review a problem from more than one perspective never ceases to amaze me.

Fault is not the issue. Ressources are.

If the most prized comic book in your collection is stolen by an unknown party, you aren't entitled to get a new one. Even if you know WHO stole it, you still wouldn't be entitled to get a new comic book from the store. All you could do is sue the thief for compensation.

Melody (and any other depowered mutant) has to prove why she is worthy of ressources being spent on her instead of the millions of dead mutants awaiting resurrection.
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 12 Mar 2020, 18:44

I do see the other perspective but they are fatally flawed.

The five can resurrect around 200 mutants a day, there are approximately 16 million dead mutants which will take 300 years to revive as mentioned.

However there a million depowered who can be easily revived much quicker with less effort and resources as the more the Five resurrect or restore mutants the stronger they become together so if say the manage to restore at least have the depowered mutants it would then be easier to resurrect the fallen ones much quicker.

There is no issue with resources as we can clearly see they have resurrected hundreds of formerly dead mutants in the pages of other comics anyway.

why would dead mutants be more worthy than those who have merely lost there powers through no fault of there own?

Actually I am really looking forward to X-Factor and seeing what affect the resurrection process has on mutants

Perhaps we should start a topic around the resurrection protocols once we see more of the side affects

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Lavettye
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Lavettye » 12 Mar 2020, 19:10

The only thing flawed here is your understanding of the page Token provided above.

The number of mutants alive has NO effect on the speed at which the Five work. It's the act of ressurecting itself that caused them to become more effective. They don't seem to tire and have increased their output rate, but it still will take at least ten years to get everyone back.
why would dead mutants be more worthy than those who have merely lost there powers through no fault of there own?
Why wouldn't they be ?
Once again - FAULT has nothing to do with it,... and actually applies to both groups. The mutants who got depowered on M-Day aren't to blame, neither are the 16 million mutants who died on Genosha. It wasn't their fault either.
There is no issue with resources as we can clearly see they have resurrected hundreds of formerly dead mutants in the pages of other comics anyway.
You yourself quoted the 300 years. TIME is the ressource that's limited here.

It's been said that it will take at least ten years to get the 16 million dead mutants back. Naturally it will take longer to ressurect 17 million mutants (the 16 million dead ones plus the 1 million depowered ones)

Now, please, enlighten us - WHY should Melody, who is very much alive and surrounded by friends and family, get treatment first when there's millions of other people (like Mystique) who are anxiously waiting to be reunited with their long lost loves ones? Aso keep in mind, that it's been established that the experience gets more traumatic the more time passes between a death and a ressurection. So again, WHY should Melody be treated now, thus postponing every dead mutant's ressurection by one slot?

And it's not just Melody, it's a million of depowered people who want to skip the line at the expence of others.And who else then. Does Karma gets to skip the line, so that she can be ressurected with both legs intact?
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 18 Mar 2020, 22:08

Is there really an argument here to be honest feel this is irrelevant as you are well aware they have revived recently deceased mutants before anyone on Genosha?

is this done in alphabetical order? powerset? or just general usefulness? how would you decide? do you go for most recent or those who died first but that could be anyone, one with/without family or the youngest?

Who is Melody proving her worth to exactly? her fellow mutants? or herself? she wants to do it and may feel she has too but it's still wrong to give her this choice when easier alternatives are available and then watch it like some sort of Gladitorial combat we will never agree on this.

Here's another point is is ethical to raise the dead? do you consider the mutants stored in Cerebro to be alive or dead? or both? its very difficult topic to address.

If you have ever watched "Death becomes her" film with Bruce Willis and Goldie Horn this reminds me a lot of resurrecting people and becoming immortal.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 22 Mar 2020, 11:05

Well reading X-Men #7 after the final Unbeatable Squirrel Girl trade sure was an experience.

The Crucible directly conflicts with Krakoa's "Kill no man" commandment.

Apocalypse, whose powers are expansively vague enough to do just about whatever a writer wants, gets his own sword as if he doesn't already have enough advantages. It's not like Apocalypse mercifully stabs them straight through the heart or decapitates them after their first futile attack. He drags it out so he can callously ridicule them as he brutally kills them. Surely there's a more humane way to euthanize the depowered? If suicide doesn't let someone cut in the resurrection queue, it doesn't seem like it's a pressing issue to The Five that needed to be solved by The Crucible.

The Crucible is gratuitous because resurrection isn't necessary to repower mutants. Apocalypse has used his Celestial technology to empower Polaris & Gazer after M-Day. AvX undid whatever editorial malarkey prevented geneticists from restoring X-Genes, so Mr. Sinister could also prove his worth to Krakoa here. Xavier & Magneto recruited him for his extensive genetic library & cloning tech, neither of which are being used to resurrect slain mutants. Give this duty to Beast, Kavita Rao, or Moira MacTaggart as they're comparatively more ethical & loyal.

The idea that Kurt would invent a new religion is antithetical to his character's core of faith.

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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Mar 2020, 13:01

Every time I see this thread, I worry about what's been posted. It's like a reoccurring nightmare.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by comicsfan666 » 22 Mar 2020, 13:25

tokenBG1009 wrote:
22 Mar 2020, 13:01
Every time I see this thread, I worry about what's been posted. It's like a reoccurring nightmare.
You are free to ignore it.

Other nightmares are not as obliging.

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Magnus
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Magnus » 23 Mar 2020, 00:30

EvilMonkeyPope wrote:
22 Mar 2020, 11:05
The Crucible directly conflicts with Krakoa's "Kill no man" commandment.
Not really. Depowered mutants are still mutants.

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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 23 Mar 2020, 17:32

It does they are not viewed as Mutants it essentially the same if say a christian renounced his faith and is no longer a christian others would view him as a heretic. This was mainly in ancient times not so much today but won't get into that with you guys.

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Magnus
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Magnus » 24 Mar 2020, 04:52

They get to live on Krakoa. They are not considered humans.

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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 12 Apr 2020, 20:57

I'm mostly based this on Exodus treatment of Magneto when he met him post-decimation and there general treatment of mutants in this period.

Does anyone else have the correct answer to this?

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tokenBG1009
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 13 Apr 2020, 03:33

Melody is there, but she's also about to go through the Crucible so it's possible that was a special occasion. Callisto is a depowered mutant though and has a high ranking position in the Hellfire Trading Company though. I figure if depowered mutants were treated as regular humans then they wouldn't be allowed to have such positions.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by InsipidLust » 13 Apr 2020, 06:49

Exodus' point of view does not likely represent the view of everyone on the quiet council, and his views at the time of post-decimation wouldn't be all that relevant here since circumstances have changed.

Even if that weren't the case, depowered mutants *are* still mutants. They're essentially beings in a liminal stage, not people who have "renounced" their gift or faith.

The context and language of the kill no man rule is important to remember here.

Recall that originally it was suggested that "kill no mutant" was going to be a law, but it was scrapped because death was no longer considered an obstacle for mutants as they could be resurrected. "Kill no man" was proposed in its place because man cannot be resurrected by the resurrection protocols.

The X-Men clearly view depowered mutants as resurrectable. Therefore, they must necessarily view those depowered mutants as mutants and not as humans.
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norwichchris
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 13 Apr 2020, 15:45

Thank you I was very much unsure about this issue, so i is confirmed that Callisto no longer has powers? now she lost her tentacle arms (hated these) when she was depowered.

I was unsure she had repowered but I presume she has.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by InsipidLust » 13 Apr 2020, 17:00

Callisto briefly went toe-to-toe with Sabretooth in Uncanny X-Men #6 (2016) and Monet mentioned that she was using her telepathy to bolster her own audiovisual senses with Callisto and Creed's enhanced ones in #7. That suggests to me that her abilities are back.
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Magnus
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Magnus » 13 Apr 2020, 21:51

On the other hand, when she was in the mutant prison in X-Men Gold #23-24 she wasn't wearing an inhibitor collar like everyone else.

Was she (and the Morlocks) mentioned again in Uncanny X-Men (2019) after Cyclops set them up in Chernaya? Since the easiest answer is just "she got killed and resurrected."

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