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X-Men #7

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medium13
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by medium13 » 27 Feb 2020, 18:13

Yeah, I'd definitely need to put some thought into Storm and Emma's votes before I could say they would vote one way or another.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 27 Feb 2020, 18:33

Storm and Marrow aren't children. They weren't put into combat against one of the most powerful beings on the planet to get something that was already theirs back. I've never read the story, but I really get the feeling Storm wasn't all "hell yeah, let's do this!" I doubt she'd actually be okay with this and firmly against it.

Emma is pragmatic and realizes things must be done, but I doubt she was enthused with the method. She's always been presented as caring deeply about the students. She'd be close to Wolverine's opinion, but probably live with it knowing it's the best plan on the table.

This 100% seems like something Apocalypse flat out refused to allow any cheat of a mental mindscape.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by manuel_mc89 » 27 Feb 2020, 18:38

Really? I dont see it, sure Storm has recurred to brutal violence before, but not against children, and while Emma has kicked children in the head, i dont see her being ok with children dying in such (let alone any) way.

I dont see how much im into the X-Men being immortal, like on a main point, i get it, victims of continuos genocides deserve this, (and Emma has been presente in the worst events) but its the way that they chose to do it that i dont agree.

Die to live forever is a strong, complicated message, and i repeat, i dont know how some people that have had suicide thoughts would read this issue and feel (i mean, we've seen some examples in this very thread).

On another note, i read a trasgender twitter user saying that this resonated so much with them, because it showed the hard struggle that they've been through all their life in order to be who they feel inside.
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medium13
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by medium13 » 27 Feb 2020, 18:44

But, Marrow was a child when Storm gleefully ripped her heart out and licked her blood of the bone. She was pretty into it. She can change as the wind blows. And, she was still a kid when Storm sent Wolverine to teach her a lesson in single combat in the basement. This is pretty ripe territory for debate about Storm's character.

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Fenix
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Fenix » 27 Feb 2020, 19:07

EphemeristX wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 17:00
You guys say Storm but I remember when Storm ripped out Marrow's heart in a ritualistic fight to the death. She also nearly did the same to Callisto. Jean and Kurt I definitely see against it. Apocalypse and Exodus for. But the rest? I dunno.
She (Storm), as a powerful, capable and self confident woman, challenged to death by Callisto or ripping Marrow's heart because it was the only way to deactivate a bomb (if i remember correctly) does not put Storm on par with Apocalypse beating to death a former mutant (now powerless human) teenager.

While it feels this resurrection is "earned" it is also twisted as hell, disturbing and abusive in so many different levels.
I can't believe Nightcrawler, Jean, Storm or even Emma would sit and allow this to happen, it is against anything they have been for... ever.

The fact that Hickman is, purposely, silenting nearly everybody's voices just allowing us to get a glimpse of the Guthrie siblings AND Scott/Kurt is also disturbing.
Scott and Kurt are now, more than ever, just soulless minions brainwashed. You can see glimpses of their personalities, sometimes they behave as they are meant to but quite often they just behave like War, Death or Pestilence as Apocalypse's horsemen or like most of Magneto's former acolytes, not like the X-Men.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Crutey Anth » 27 Feb 2020, 19:22

I fully love this run!

This issue was great, I was engrossed by it.

I can see them being 'out of character' or I can read it as they've changed...I'll be honest this is the sort of stuff they should've been since Morriron's run.

We can try to pretend they're not but Xavier made all of these people child soldiers years ago, the world keeps crapping on them and now they have a chance to make the world the way they want it to be...I buy it. The Crucible idea makes sense as a cultural thing, its no different than in the BP movie fighting to be worthy of being king.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by comicsfan666 » 27 Feb 2020, 19:24

I don't think anyone is actually brainwashed here, for the simple reason that is probably not a story Hickman cares to tell.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Blackcyclops » 27 Feb 2020, 19:27

@EphX: That’s why I pushed back against it being sensationalized. I did not see anyone cheering on her death or anything...in fact (I hate the art btw) you see the anguish, anger and more in her siblings and even Skin doesn’t look happy. Nobody (not even Apoccy) is getting enjoyment out of this.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Blackcyclops » 27 Feb 2020, 19:29

comicsfan666 wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 19:24
I don't think anyone is actually brainwashed here, for the simple reason that is probably not a story Hickman cares to tell.

Agreed
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Fenix » 27 Feb 2020, 19:45

Blackcyclops wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 19:27
@EphX: That’s why I pushed back against it being sensationalized. I did not see anyone cheering on her death or anything...in fact (I hate the art btw) you see the anguish, anger and more in her siblings and even Skin doesn’t look happy. Nobody (not even Apoccy) is getting enjoyment out of this.
Well, the only people who we actually see reacting are Sam, Angelo and Paige, the rest are there mostly watching a movie with popcorn.
I would not dare to say they are enjoying it or cheering but they are allowing this to happen.

Facts are facts, Apocalypse just brutally beated to death Melody in order to bring her back.

Question 1. If she is HUMAN when she does die, when they resurrect her and she remembers EVERYTHING (apparently)... does it mean they can actually back up HUMANS?

Question 2. Really, wasnt there any other way to kill Melody mercifully and painlessly in order to resurrect her as mutant?

Question 3. Wanda used to love Wanda, Wanda did what he did to please Magneto and Quicksilver (House of M) and her "no more mutants" was not even her fault as she was mentally unstable (and possessed by the so-called Life Force). She has done everything she could to make amends for what she did (AvX, Uncanny Avengers) and this treatment is absolutely OFF for several Xmen including Magneto, who during Age of Xman had lots of second thoughts about the whole Axis/you are not my father retcon.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by EphemeristX » 27 Feb 2020, 19:47

Fenix wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 19:45

Well, the only people who we actually see reacting are Sam, Angelo and Paige, the rest are there mostly watching a movie with popcorn.
I would not dare to say they are enjoying it or cheering but they are allowing this to happen.
That's an inference you've drawn that is not supported at all by the issue.

Also, yeah, the X-Men have been all about creating child soldiers since its inception. Bobby Drake was fighting Magneto at 16. Melody Guthrie was a child when she had her powers stolen from her. She was a child when many of her friends were blown up on a bus by religious extremists. She's earned the right to make this kind of decision.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Blackcyclops » 27 Feb 2020, 20:33

That third thing isn’t a question and I’m not sure what you’re exactly saying. Magneto didn’t say anything cruel about Wanda...approving (if he did) the Crucible doesn’t have anything to do with his personal feelings toward Wanda.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by norwichchris » 27 Feb 2020, 21:05

The X-men were always soldiers and willing to fight and die for Xavier cause. This is definitely not anything to do with that they chose that life and paid the price for it many times over.

Melody and the other mutant children at Xavier's were not and may not want to be soldiers only to live a normal life if they can. She may have earned it but was it really necessary? could she have had her powers restored like in the film Avatar (if you have not seen this it's really good)

That's how I thought it could be done why have a gladiatorial combat for something that was stolen from her in the first place? just causing her unnecessary suffering. The X-men don't seem to have a moral compass anymore and are willing to do almost anything to ensure mutants are strong and powerful. A real world comparison and the best would be the Spartans of Greece who were a warrior culture to the extreme and well they also did some pretty awful things to make themselves as powerful as possible.

Is this the founding of a mutant state that Xavier or even Magneto would want?

Magneto seems to have forgotten both Wanda/Quicksilver as they are no longer his or mutants and is focusing on Polaris completely. He would probably kill her now to prevent her from using her powers against mutant kind again.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Fenix » 27 Feb 2020, 22:30

EphemeristX wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 19:47
Fenix wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 19:45

Well, the only people who we actually see reacting are Sam, Angelo and Paige, the rest are there mostly watching a movie with popcorn.
I would not dare to say they are enjoying it or cheering but they are allowing this to happen.
That's an inference you've drawn that is not supported at all by the issue.

Also, yeah, the X-Men have been all about creating child soldiers since its inception. Bobby Drake was fighting Magneto at 16. Melody Guthrie was a child when she had her powers stolen from her. She was a child when many of her friends were blown up on a bus by religious extremists. She's earned the right to make this kind of decision.
I dont think its an inference, I have read the issue several times and Scott and Kurt do have some words about this expressing their concerns but at the end, when Melody does fight Apocalypse we barely see anybody's faces. We can see Xavier with his open mouth, Magneto doesn't look happy neither, but the emotional impact is all on Sam and Paige (Josh doesnt appear in these panels clearly) and Angelo who is either restraining Sam/Paige from jumping to help Melody or comforting them.

Maybe Im reading a different issue.

Child soldiers: Xavier groomed the X-men to be (super)HEROES, not soldiers. Yes, Xavier has had lots of questionable actions, he was very authoritarian with them but the X-men grew out of Xavier's shadow and commands long time ago, maybe the original X-men were used to have Xavier calling the shots and giving orders but everything changed with the new X-Men.
Cyclops started to take his own decisions and other X-men started to stand up on their own (the whole original team left with Polaris, Havok and Iceman going to college; Beast joining the Avengers; Iceman, Beast and Angel joining the Defenders...) even becoming leaders on their own like Storm.
I never saw them as "soldiers" but superheroes, they all had their personalities and voices, their consciences and they didnt even agree with each other all the time.
Xavier was, actually, removed from the table for years and the X-Men moved on.
When Jean Grey came back X-Factor did their own thing tweaking Xavier's dream helping young mutants and training them as Xavier did with them.
Were they training them to be soldiers? Absolutely not.

Magneto tried to become the strict headmaster with the New Mutants but we all know he failed miserably.
It was Cable who first approached the New Mutants as soldiers, even using that word. He changed the team completely to respond to his own agenda even if that meant some New Mutants left (or came back later).

The first time the X-men have started to become more like an army was after House of M, more evidently during the Utopia era.
Cyclops took this path as they were decimated and he decided mutantkind were facing extintion and they needed to act like an army in order to survive.
Was he right? Maybe. Maybe not. But he did what it was necessary for the mutantkind to be alive at this point. I disliked his "Magneto" leadership but I always understood that there were (valid) reasons for that.
Does this mean the X-men were always "soldiers"? Of course not.

Melody: Melody was a mutant for like... 5 minutes.
Does she deserve to recover her powers? Of course, all the depowered mutants should have the opportunity to recover their powers. It absolutely fits the "make more mutants" motto.
Isnt there any other way to mercy-kill her to revive her with her powers? You bet there are several ways to do this. Making her face one of the most terribly powerful mutants ever born with a tiny sword is a cruel joke. Sure, she was brave but the fight was horrendous and cruel and it legitly raises the question about what the fuck do the X-men have in their heads and their hearts now.

Wanda:
While I consider Magneto a great pragmatist and he will always do whatever he has to do he is also a family man with his little heart.
He loved Wanda, Pietro and his grandchildren (Luna, Thomas and William). Im not sure how you can take that away like it never happened.
Lorna might be his official daughter but I highly doubt he does love her as much as he loved/loves Wanda and Pietro.

Im just saying that Wanda IS friends with Rogue, Havok or Beast. If we think about it we will find several other mutants around who can actually relate to Wanda or call her a friend. However nobody is there defending her or trying to give her a chance.
It is intentional, a major confrontation between Avengers and mutants is surely happening again sooner than later and all of these factors will play as a reason for it.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by EphemeristX » 27 Feb 2020, 22:31

He sent minors out into life or death combat situations. That's a child soldier.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Blackcyclops » 27 Feb 2020, 22:51

We really only call them superheroes because their moral compass matches our own, which is fine. But it’s worth it to call a spade a spade.

The original X-Men were a paramilitary team of teenagers that functioned as a mutant response team first and a strike force against general threats. I don’t call them vigilantes because they aren’t like Spidey or DD. They were trained in combat, wore uniforms, and operated outside the actual confines of the law (especially after GSX) as a team. They didn’t really have a detention to hold foes (instead they erased minds) but later on did start to do so. Some times they did operate cooperatively with the law akin to Blackrock or other real life groups.

It’s not that far removed from what other super teams do, mind you. The Avengers are essentially a paramilitary organization which has often times had government sanction (far more than the X-Men).

I’m not even going to argue about how amounts of love like it’s quantifiable lol...

As far as giving Wanda a chance or defending her (I mean how much defense does she need? No one has taken steps toward harming her), she was literally brought up for the first time here (outside of the mention during HoX) so you have no idea how everyone feels about her. So again you fan critique the lack of getting everyone’s opinion but a lack of evidence doesn’t prove your point here. It leaves it up in the air.

It is funny how now that feelings toward the X-Men shift, now they shift toward Wanda lol
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by XtremeOne1 » 28 Feb 2020, 01:28

You know, they are a paramilitary group but they are still heroes. Or they were. In many ways, the X-Men haven't been superheroes since M-Day. Sure, there were superhero off-shots but the main group has been more paramilitary who, 'did good'(for the most part). I think most of us grew up with the pre M-Day X-Men, the superhero X-Men, so even after all these years its hard to let go of that image. Even with X-Force, it was like 'Oh this is wrong, but they feel it needs to be done'. We even had Storm calling out Cyclops on it.

But this is the deepest, darkest, they've ever gone. And no one is calling them out. And there is no heroic. There is no heart. The X-Men are not heroes, they're not even a military. They're a cult. A paramilitary cult, if you will.
Blackcyclops wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 22:51

As far as giving Wanda a chance or defending her (I mean how much defense does she need? No one has taken steps toward harming her), she was literally brought up for the first time here (outside of the mention during HoX) so you have no idea how everyone feels about her. So again you fan critique the lack of getting everyone’s opinion but a lack of evidence doesn’t prove your point here. It leaves it up in the air.

It is funny how now that feelings toward the X-Men shift, now they shift toward Wanda lol
Well, I would say no one is harming Wanda, but there is definitely some very dangerous rhetoric going on around Wanda. We've seen her get called the pretender, we see children unable to hear her name, we see Exodus spewing what he spews. I mean, I don't want to get political but think of it in terms of OUR world. Wanda, while not 100% blameless, was a victim too. She suffered greatly, then was manipulated(controlled? I don't remember the full story of Doctor Doom). But the rhetoric they're using against her is that she's solely to blame, that she's a monster and someone children she be scared of(yes, the X-Men teaching fear, which will turn to hate! Woo!!). No one is harming Wanda now, but the language used, the hate being built around her, can one day put Wanda(and maybe even Billy at risk).

In fact, the rhetoric all around is dangerous. It's one thing to say 'We're our own people, we're proud, and we shed our 'human' names, skin and culture and build our own'. It's another thing to spew superiority, to disparage humans, to belittle them. Yes, you have a commandment to kill no human...but with the rhetoric being used, how long until that law is defied? When some young group of mutants, taking the words of Exodus, Magneto, and Apocalypse(and ugh, Storm in issue #1..because sure), and put it to action?

That's where the X-Men are, and that's why the words of Exodus and Apocalypse stand out to me as so fucked up to be associated with the X-Men.

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Oldmanlogan79 » 28 Feb 2020, 01:42

If they stop and change the future we´ve seen in HOX POX....should we call them heroes then?

Sometimes I thought during HOX POX that this was about politics or nationalism, but now I see it as a Cold War against the future..

I just see heart in what Kurt brings to this issue...
Last edited by Oldmanlogan79 on 28 Feb 2020, 01:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by tokenBG1009 » 28 Feb 2020, 01:43

Oldmanlogan79 wrote:
28 Feb 2020, 01:42
If they stop and change the future we´ve seen in HOX POX....should we call them heroes then?
Anti-Heroes maybe.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Fenix » 28 Feb 2020, 09:53

XtremeOne1 wrote:
28 Feb 2020, 01:28
You know, they are a paramilitary group but they are still heroes. Or they were. In many ways, the X-Men haven't been superheroes since M-Day. Sure, there were superhero off-shots but the main group has been more paramilitary who, 'did good'(for the most part). I think most of us grew up with the pre M-Day X-Men, the superhero X-Men, so even after all these years its hard to let go of that image. Even with X-Force, it was like 'Oh this is wrong, but they feel it needs to be done'. We even had Storm calling out Cyclops on it.

But this is the deepest, darkest, they've ever gone. And no one is calling them out. And there is no heroic. There is no heart. The X-Men are not heroes, they're not even a military. They're a cult. A paramilitary cult, if you will.
Blackcyclops wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 22:51

As far as giving Wanda a chance or defending her (I mean how much defense does she need? No one has taken steps toward harming her), she was literally brought up for the first time here (outside of the mention during HoX) so you have no idea how everyone feels about her. So again you fan critique the lack of getting everyone’s opinion but a lack of evidence doesn’t prove your point here. It leaves it up in the air.

It is funny how now that feelings toward the X-Men shift, now they shift toward Wanda lol
Well, I would say no one is harming Wanda, but there is definitely some very dangerous rhetoric going on around Wanda. We've seen her get called the pretender, we see children unable to hear her name, we see Exodus spewing what he spews. I mean, I don't want to get political but think of it in terms of OUR world. Wanda, while not 100% blameless, was a victim too. She suffered greatly, then was manipulated(controlled? I don't remember the full story of Doctor Doom). But the rhetoric they're using against her is that she's solely to blame, that she's a monster and someone children she be scared of(yes, the X-Men teaching fear, which will turn to hate! Woo!!). No one is harming Wanda now, but the language used, the hate being built around her, can one day put Wanda(and maybe even Billy at risk).

In fact, the rhetoric all around is dangerous. It's one thing to say 'We're our own people, we're proud, and we shed our 'human' names, skin and culture and build our own'. It's another thing to spew superiority, to disparage humans, to belittle them. Yes, you have a commandment to kill no human...but with the rhetoric being used, how long until that law is defied? When some young group of mutants, taking the words of Exodus, Magneto, and Apocalypse(and ugh, Storm in issue #1..because sure), and put it to action?

That's where the X-Men are, and that's why the words of Exodus and Apocalypse stand out to me as so fucked up to be associated with the X-Men.
Exactly my thoughts.

Also there is a visible analogy here between the Xmen/mutants and the nazis.
"Nazism held racial theories based upon a belief in the existence of an Aryan master race that was superior to all other races. The Nazis emphasised the existence of racial conflict between the Aryan race and others—particularly Jews, whom the Nazis viewed as a mixed race that had infiltrated multiple societies and was responsible for exploitation and repression of the Aryan race."

Do you see similarities with what is going on in X-Men?
It is absolutely intentional and it stands out against ANYTHING the X-men were or symbolized since their inception.

When the National Socialism started it wasn't as bad or terrible as the actual nazi were, it was just a twist to Marx's socialism and free capitalism, responding to a greater "good" for the country. And we all know how it ended.

The X-men are good people, they were heroes (as much as we can call the FF or the Avengers heroes) and they are doing what they believe is best for mutantkind, unfortunately "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and in the process they have been joined by some of the most ruthless mutants/persons in the MU, some of them actively participating in their organization chart (the Council) and influencing the events in many ways.

We can see, clearly, the direction the X-men is taking and some possible stops on that path.
As Xtreme (and myself) said Wanda is becoming the boogeyman for the X-men cult, sooner than later she will be targeted and attacked, nobody is really stopping this overall hate towards her, nobody is caring to tell the whole story empathizing with her (even if there are several key characters here who should) and if they do we are being blinded purposely and not seeing it at all.

I agree the mutants are now a cult, plain and simple. A cult with very concrete social and political views and agenda distancing them from whatever the Xmen was prior to HoX, prior to House of M.

If you think about it there is no way Ororo, Jean or Kurt would, ever, allow the Crucible to be happening. It is so fucked up, so extremely disturbing, that I can't see any sense in Kurt's words or in the whole issue, it is like reading a comic about Charles Manson's barbaric cult.
Maybe Im too old school.

Now I need a book where some mutants gather and start revolting against this, a book where they talk and express what they really feel about these changes and where they show their consciences, a book I can relate with because I feel like I'm drowning with the current direction.
Dont misunderstand me, Im digging some books (New Mutants, X-Force, Marauders...) but it has become so dark and twisted...

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Re: X-Men #7

Post by EphemeristX » 28 Feb 2020, 10:25

We're drawing parallels between Krakoa and the Nazi regime now? And the X-men haven't been superheroes since M-Day? Look, I get that some folks are not pleased with the current direction, but both of those statements are ludicrous. Yes, the X-Books have been primarily focused on the survival of their people since M-Day, but to say they haven't been superheroes in the meantime is just outright false.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Blackcyclops » 28 Feb 2020, 12:22

I was waiting for which side of the argument would pull out the Nazis first...
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by das_boot » 28 Feb 2020, 12:41

Just to put a pin in this before it really starts: guys, if we’re going to draw analogies to real life events, can we please be VERY careful about creating parallels to groups that have committed genocide. At NO point have the X-Men stated that they want to kill all humans, and whilst their theme of “genetic superiority” is 100% worthy of drawing SOME comparison— tread carefully please.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Monolith » 28 Feb 2020, 13:20

I just want to go back to the first page and talk about how Schrodinger's Polyamory is a GREAT band name.
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Re: X-Men #7

Post by Blackcyclops » 28 Feb 2020, 13:38

The real world stuff aside, you’re really just stretching credulity by saying the X-Men having been superheroes since m-Day.

What are we saying superheroes are exactly? If their contemporaries are the Avengers or Fantastic Four well, then we can look at all the times they teamed up with them or participated in conflict they also were in since M-Day...

Since M-Day, the X-Men have collectively (besides trying to survive threats to their very existence brought on by religious zealots, killer machines, racist policies and corporations, and such):
The fought back the Skrulls in San Fran (Secret Invasion)
Opposed Norman Osborn (Dark Reign)
Joined with other heroes against the Dark Celestials (Civil War II)
Protected NY from an Asgardian invasion (War of the Realms)
Tried to save Earth from the Last Incursion (Secret Wars)
Joined with other heroes against to stop the misuse of the Infinity Stones (Infinity Wars)
And opposed Hydra Cap (Secret Empire)

That’s not counting any smaller scale acts of superhero stuff they did as well...or the group shots they were included in
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