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House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

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Blackcyclops
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2019, 12:42

So I wonder about Moira X...where is she?
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 18 Sep 2019, 12:47

I think if this is the X-Men going forward then I'm going to have issues with his characterizations.

I believe that the conversation with Emma is meant to be more than just X calling her out for pushing the UN to accept Krakoa. I've always been of a mind that the X-Men are being at least prodded to be more in line with his vision and I think this was foreshadowing that revelation. It could even explain WHY he's the way he is now. The mental manipulation is having its own impact on him.

So, if this is meant to be the X-Men as they are...it's bad characterization. If it's X "manipulating" them then I'm okay with it for the story.
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2019, 12:51

But is it still X? Or is it Xavier now fully back in control because of Moira X?
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 18 Sep 2019, 12:55

The two are the same for all intents and purposes.
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by XtremeOne1 » 18 Sep 2019, 12:58

tokenBG1009 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:21


If not, then no one who enjoys this can speak poorly of Bendis's mischaracterizations again. I think Ororo's INTERACTIONS with each character were really well done, but being the hype woman of Krakoa is so out of character for her it almost erases everything else.
100% this! In a way, Ororo makes sense as the person to "clarify they are who they are" as she's Scott's equal and Jean's best friend(and I'm sure she would've had nice moments with NIghtcrawler and Wolverine..and the Monet moment was very just so very moment) but everything around that felt so hollow and so anti-Ororo. She'd have such reservations against this pod people thing, she'd have reservations with going to a crowd and making people sound like messiahs....It just felt false.

Lorna also felt very....off. Like some newly programmed robot just learning about humanity.

But the Emma scene was so on point(Man I hope we get some Hickman writing Emma/Monet dialogue).

I don't feel like this will get wiped away and that worries me. Like, are we supposed to be okay with Xavier letting in mass murderers? Torturers? Mad men? I've always had enough time buying Magneto's constant back and forth, but to accept all of them in to the fold?

And yeah, I just can't shake the coldness of that post resurrection scene(outiside of each of the personal moments). And I do worry about characterization because, yeah...so many of these people aren't acting like themselves. They are barely acting like individuals.

I really hope this is just some sort of mental influence.

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Flapflop » 18 Sep 2019, 12:59

Bendis influence is not coincedence, its a homage. And Hox #5 will be the status quo moving forward in Dawn of X
Spoiler: show
Image
Spoiler: show
Image
Blackcyclops wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:42
So I wonder about Moira X...where is she?
I think we will see her reaction to the current status quo in HoX #6, and the rest of the history of the Trirumvirate until this point in PoX #5 and #6
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Nu-D » 18 Sep 2019, 13:03

XtremeOne1 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:58
Lorna also felt very....off. Like some newly programmed robot just learning about humanity.
Eh, Lorna has expressed racist sentiments against humans before. I thought her comment was pretty in character.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:47
I believe that the conversation with Emma is meant to be more than just X calling her out for pushing the UN to accept Krakoa. I've always been of a mind that the X-Men are being at least prodded to be more in line with his vision and I think this was foreshadowing that revelation. It could even explain WHY he's the way he is now. The mental manipulation is having its own impact on him.
Good insight. That scene could be foreshadowing that X has been manipulating minds and knows the costs associated. I’ll be aggravated if we end up with “everyone is freed from X’s influence and are very disappointed™ with him for his moral compromise.”

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Nu-D » 18 Sep 2019, 13:07

Flapflop wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:59
Bendis influence is not coincedence, its a hommage. And Hox #5 will be the status quo moving forward in Dawn of X
It’s neither “coincidence” nor “homage.” It’s just Hickman playing with Bendis’ toys, and being grateful they’re available.

In some ways, I think Hickman is doing a PAD: using underdeveloped characters and retooling them to be more interesting. Granted, PAD retooled characters by giving them personality whereas Hickman is just retooling their powers. But I think, like PAD, Hickman is benefitting from Bendis’ detritus (Goldballs:Hickman::Layla Miller:PAD).

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by manuel_mc89 » 18 Sep 2019, 13:20

Loved the villains joining Krakoa, though there was Frenzy among them, whom I don't remember went back to being a villain, and she even had her old look, so this means that Mystique was onboard before her.

Hated Storm being the church leader of this cult, which yeah to me it feels like a cult, it's eerie.

Emma, as usual, was a highlight.

I guess they are gonna keep resurrecting mutants till they bring back the original horsemen, which is when Apocalypse will bow out.

Sinister didn't got a line, and they are using his dna samples, and appears to just now have joined Prof X.

I also think that in the background there was that villain that was created by Bendis and Fraction kids.

I don't like the use of Proteus, I think it will backfire somehow.

I don't like the X-Men being cloned copies.
Spoiler: show
Wonder how all of this will come crashing down, cause having Emma going from this sort of "ambassador" to the mutant race, to traveling the world in a ship it's weird.
Also, huh, just noticed we have never seen Rogue, Remy or Betsy right? Because this reminded me that Cerebro is doing what Rogue did as the reaper in Age of X, storing mutants minds, except she only did it once they died, but still, I'd be more trusting of the personas Rogue would keep that those that Cerebro is doing.
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by XtremeOne1 » 18 Sep 2019, 13:26

Don't forget to spoil tag anything you've learned from outside sources!

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 18 Sep 2019, 13:30

wait, is that
Spoiler: show
Frenzy in her old outfit and hairstyle
? :(

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by manuel_mc89 » 18 Sep 2019, 13:44

Sorry, forgot about I, and yeah, that's definitely Frenzy, whom this issue reminded me, I really loved and miss.
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Sep 2019, 14:07

Nu-D wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 13:03
XtremeOne1 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:58
Lorna also felt very....off. Like some newly programmed robot just learning about humanity.
Eh, Lorna has expressed racist sentiments against humans before. I thought her comment was pretty in character.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:47
I believe that the conversation with Emma is meant to be more than just X calling her out for pushing the UN to accept Krakoa. I've always been of a mind that the X-Men are being at least prodded to be more in line with his vision and I think this was foreshadowing that revelation. It could even explain WHY he's the way he is now. The mental manipulation is having its own impact on him.
Good insight. That scene could be foreshadowing that X has been manipulating minds and knows the costs associated. I’ll be aggravated if we end up with “everyone is freed from X’s influence and are very disappointed™ with him for his moral compromise.”

Lorna’s come a long way...like a LONG way from that...even under PAD nonetheless.

But she did seem very naive and a little like she was new to the world.

I see your point Token about Bendis and I think Hickman (because of the goodwill and bias fans have toward him) will gy less flack for what he’s doing than another writer like Bendis (who due to his writing and outside writing stuff rubbed some people the wrong way).
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Fenix » 18 Sep 2019, 14:36

This issue contains all the explanations (well, most of them) we were longing for weeks.

However it opens up an interesting debate about the resurrected mutants, and the mutant population in Krakoa in general.

As a good recap we can safely guess Xavier has been cloned to his prime age, so Fantomex is free again to appear elsewhere when any writer decides to recover him; also many of the X-men feel off not acting exactly as they have been for 30 years.
Ororo, in example, is a good leader and surely she has delivered really good speeches over the years BUT this is something totally new, as she looks like giving Krakoa's citizens Xavier's gospel making her a preacher, a fanatic... and it feels weird and terrible at the same time since Ororo is probably one of the most loyal to Xavier's dream ever enlisted but here we are going to a whole new level who is not fitting with her personality and normal behaviour. I found it creepy.
As Sinister has been quietly storing mutants' DNA for decades we can also bet that any deceased mutant is set to return now, not only fan favourites or recently killed (as Chamber, Banshee or the kamikaze mission mutants), but other dead mutants like Mimic, Caliban, Thunderbird... even Petra and Sway from the Deadly Genesis squad (please please please...)

... but, what is the limit to these resurrections?

Also, where is Mr Sinister right now? He is key for the big plan yet his current version is still in the shadows and Im curious to see how such a manipulative character fits into this plan... or let me rephrase it, how this BIG plan fits in his own plans or what are Sinister's own plans?

Regarding Hope and her powers...
Hickman here is making Hope relevant by developing her powers further from any previous take on them.
Hope could activate mutants as she did with the five lights, she can mimic powers to their full potential but amplifying the scope or magnitude of other mutant powers was something Fabian Cortez could do, or even the deceased Michael Nowlan (see X-Factor, at their very begining). Im not sure now if Cressida (Avenger X) is a mutant but she could certainly amplify powers as well.
While this is not necessarily a bad move and it integrates Hope into the fold making her relevant again (as most of us just wanted to see her gone forever...) it feels a bit forced.

The most concerning parts of the whole series is that only Magneto and a few mutants actually behave as they are suposed to.
I couldnt recognize Polaris here not because what she says but because how she behaved, she acts more like a newbie with no feelings towards her fallen friends (as Scott, Jean, Kurt and Warren, at least, could be considered really close friends to her), we are back to the 70s Jean Grey (I cant find the resurrected Jean anywhere and her past death was extremely disheartening and underwhelming) and then we have two details I refuse to let go and I cant believe Hickman just ignored.
  • Wolverine. While cloning him shouldnt be that difficult going through the whole adamantium bonding process seems cruel and terrible and hasnt been done in this issue. He has been cloned and thats it. I know Magneto is around but Adamantium is extremely rare and hard to manipulate and it takes time, either it happened off panel or he is adamantium-less or Hickman just ignored this.

    Cyclops. He is meant to have some brain injury that prevents him from using his powers without his lenses/visor. While some writers have been toying around this in other books (Astonishing in example) if he is cloned he should be free from this handicap and, unless Hickman tell us the visor amplifies his optic blast or helps him to gain accuracy or finesse and thats why he still "needs" it, he shouldnt need it to contain his powers.
Im loving these books but I cant stop thinking the end doesnt justify ANY means and we might be reading about the X-men walking the really narrow line between what is good and what is morally ambiguous or directly wrong.
Xavier might have a really good idea and his goals can be really well intentioned but, in the process, he might be becoming worse than Sinister or Apocalypse in a way.
And I cant stop thinking he is manipulating EVERYBODY which would explain why everybody is behaving like bees, not like the characters/person we are used to love.

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 18 Sep 2019, 14:53

I've said it before, Hickman is going to get praise no matter what he does. Partially because he's an extremely talented writer who has told some epic stories, but also because he's doing something different.

Bendis kind of kept things moving, but towards the end of his time at Marvel wasn't super innovative. He also just plain had some missteps.

Still, it drives me insane seeing people bending over backwards to explain Ororo here. Not just here, but reddit as well. I actually don't like Apocalypse here either because his entire thing has been "survival of the fittest." This can take many forms, but I've always seen it as always pressing and striving for more. Not running away to an island and begging, with nukes, for peace.

On Moira:

I'm going to be upset if we don't eee her soon. This would be a weird pseudo-fridging otherwise. She died to us here, but then she just disappears? Hickman is far too talented for that. Until we see Moira I just cannot believe this is the state of the X-Men moving forward. The cloning pods alone removes all danger from anything they do in the future.

Also, anyone remember Spurrier's X-Force where Cable basically kept cloning himself? I don't think there's any relation, but I'm reminded of it here.
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 18 Sep 2019, 15:09

I mean... it is getting more and more steamier between those two
Spoiler: show
Wolverine helping Scott on his knees. Both naked..
:mrgreen:

By the way, isn’t that helmet getting heavy over time?


That
Spoiler: show
classic Frenzy
appearance really bothered me.

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 18 Sep 2019, 15:16

I worry about you sometimes.
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by summerset » 18 Sep 2019, 15:30

This feels a lot like a dangerous cult to me. One that isready to conquer the world with no regards for casualties or sacrifices.

Don't like the cloned mutant.

I can't help thinking about a comment Hickman did a while back. He is writing 98 mutants and 97 evil mutants. Seems to me that Moira will be the hero here...

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Fenix » 18 Sep 2019, 15:36

Another question...

Is the whole resurrection process totally new or did the kamikaze squad X-Men know they could die but also come back?
They are not even surprised they are alive after, effectively, dying.

The implications of this are so massive... imagine Xavier going dark and creating a squad of cloned Magnetos, Marvel Girls, Vulcans, Exodus and Storms all mind controlled by a hive mind... I highly doubt Hickman mentions here the cloning process has not been tested with minds in different bodies but theoretically Xavier could clone himself into all these bodies effectively accessing their powers plus his own, use them at any end and after they die being absorved back into Xavier prime own memories...

Imagine Sinister having these tools... oh, wait, it happened in Power of X future :)

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cable » 18 Sep 2019, 15:44

This is the first issue where I am starting to genuinely become concerned about this story. This would be a fantastic alternate world tale, but is this really the status quo moving forward? I don't like these X-Men. There has to be some kind of rebellion and all of this wiped out or something.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 14:53
I've said it before, Hickman is going to get praise no matter what he does. Partially because he's an extremely talented writer who has told some epic stories, but also because he's doing something different.
Not from me. I'm getting on the same page as you in regards to where this needs to go.
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 14:36

While this is not necessarily a bad move and it integrates Hope into the fold making her relevant again (as most of us just wanted to see her gone forever...) it feels a bit forced.

When was the vote taken that determined "most of us" wanted to see her gone forever? lol :P
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18 Sep 2019, 04:28
I love two things here:
1) Goldballs is super important...and NONE of the internets geniuses guessed it lol
Ahem. Last week a poster named Cable suggested in the Miles Morales thread that Goldballs would be "the key to it all." 8-)
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Majestic » 18 Sep 2019, 15:46

Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 14:36
Hickman here is making Hope relevant by developing her powers further from any previous take on them. Hope could activate mutants as she did with the five lights, she can mimic powers to their full potential but amplifying the scope or magnitude of other mutant powers was something Fabian Cortez could do, or even the deceased Michael Nowlan (see X-Factor, at their very begining). Im not sure now if Cressida (Avenger X) is a mutant but she could certainly amplify powers as well.
While this is not necessarily a bad move and it integrates Hope into the fold making her relevant again (as most of us just wanted to see her gone forever...) it feels a bit forced.
I read this not as Hope amplifying the powers directly, but as the amplification occurring as a result of the team's interpersonal unity. Powers behaving slightly differently in response to personality changes is a common enough trait in mutants ("losing control," etc.) that this didn't seem like a reach to me. And, as Generation Hope taught us, fostering interpersonal unity (potentially to a degree that approaches brainwashing) is in scope for Hope's power set.

Though I doubt we'll see much of this team, I'm glad she's back. It allows for the opportunity to explore the themes that Generation Hope was only just starting to get into before its cancellation. Haters to the left. :twisted:
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 14:36
Wolverine. While cloning him shouldnt be that difficult going through the whole adamantium bonding process seems cruel and terrible and hasnt been done in this issue. He has been cloned and thats it. I know Magneto is around but Adamantium is extremely rare and hard to manipulate and it takes time, either it happened off panel or he is adamantium-less or Hickman just ignored this.
I'm prepared to say, "Because Proteus." Reality warpers are really kind of an all-purpose spackle for these sorts of holes.
Fenix wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 14:36
Cyclops. He is meant to have some brain injury that prevents him from using his powers without his lenses/visor. While some writers have been toying around this in other books (Astonishing in example) if he is cloned he should be free from this handicap and, unless Hickman tell us the visor amplifies his optic blast or helps him to gain accuracy or finesse and thats why he still "needs" it, he shouldnt need it to contain his powers.
I mean, you already cited Whedon's Astonishing, which stated outright that Scott's lack of control was psychosomatic; not a result of his injury. Given that Xavier's transferring the mind of the original into a new body, it stands to reason that any psychological issues would remain intact. In a way, it's almost reassuring.

Still, we have no idea how fallible this transfer process with Cerebro is. If one was so inclined, I'm sure they could say that Storm died during a previous mission (I definitely don't think we saw the first time this happened) and has since been remade as she was before, but slightly more… zealous.

EDIT: Buckle in for more "bending over backwards," Token. I mean, I don't see it that way, but I'm confident that you will. ;)

But I think that, in this decade (roughly) of Marvel comics, Storm saw her own position as the X-Men's moral compass as—well, as two things: first, a necessity. This was especially clear during Gillen's run, but also in Ellis' Astonishing. But second, a luxury; one afforded to her by not being in a position of leadership. Someone has to question the leader, but the leader shouldn't question themselves. There's an element of Storm hating her own self-doubt there, I'd say; after all, trying to abandon that self-doubt is what prompted mohawk Storm. (All praise the mohawk.)

Whenever Storm is put in charge, she takes on a different mode. The sort of mode that kills Callisto for the greater good; the sort that starts sounding exactly like Cyclops the moment she gets put in charge (Lemire's Extraordinary); the sort that accepts worship as a Goddess for years in order to help her people from the position, and—even after learning the not-so-directly-divine nature of her powers—takes this knowledge as an additive to her existing spirituality; "Goddess" remained a word she used to refer to herself, as well as the word she used to refer to an (even) higher power. I think it's always been fair to say that she believes in degrees of divinity. And to her, I think those degrees are determined by a level of connection to the natural world. I imagine she took to Krakoa more quickly than most.

I don't have a problem with Ororo taking on a performative role as a spiritual leader. She's done it before; it's a key element of her backstory, in fact. I think it reads as wrong to many because we've gotten used to Storm-as-moralizer, but I think that this is a role she has—repeatedly—been willing to shed whenever she believes that her responsibilities mandate it. Or maybe those who disapprove of the X-Men's direction in general thought that Ororo might be their port in the proverbial storm, and are disappointed that that doesn't appear to be the case?
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cable » 18 Sep 2019, 15:59

Nu-D wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 13:03
XtremeOne1 wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 12:58
Lorna also felt very....off. Like some newly programmed robot just learning about humanity.
Eh, Lorna has expressed racist sentiments against humans before. I thought her comment was pretty in character.
"What happened today was the restful of small minds. Bigoted hearts. It was the result of an America so frustrated and fragmented, so lost in the fear of what’s other, that hatred has become an accepted means of expression. I think I speak for all of us in X-Factor when I say that we’re dedicated to a vision of an America where diversity is respected - where divisions of religion, race, gender, sexual orientation and genetic structure will simply cease to matter. Maybe we’re dreamers. Maybe we’re fools. But whatever we are - we’re here - and you’d better get used to it!" -- Polaris, X-Factor #94
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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 18 Sep 2019, 16:03

You all can say what you want, but I have a feeling that Xavier or whoever, is keeping Jean purposely on her Marvel Girl level.

We all know, the Phoenix burns away infections, bla bla bla..

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 18 Sep 2019, 16:04

Well, your quote is more detailed and accurate than mine...

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Re: House of X #5 (SPOILERS)

Post by Aeon » 18 Sep 2019, 16:08

UrbanExplorer wrote:
18 Sep 2019, 16:04
Well, your quote is more detailed and accurate than mine...
You mean your „blablabla“ isn’t as detailed and accurate as Cable‘s 5 liner? You don’t say.

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