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Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

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Cable
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cable » 14 Sep 2019, 03:21

Lavettye wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 18:59
Moira died more than once in 616 ? What are you refering to? The only time I recall her dying is in the Dream's End crossover, which would then by the faked death via Shi'Ar Golem mentioned in the Chart.
The second death is if the first one is faked then she definitely dies during the Incursion during Secret Wars. Everybody except a very small few did.
To get around this you either have to say that literally everything ending disrupts her power or that in his new cosmic omnipotence Doom knew what would happen and prevented her death with her existing somewhere we never saw.
Obviously Hickman has to be aware of this problem as it is his own big story.
Fenix wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 19:00

Regarding Sinister and how he has been developed over the years...
I think he was mysterious, lethal, extremely powerful, grim and dark... and he never needed to be changed into something else.
Sinister is a backstage player, he moves the pieces from behind, he has his own agenda and his pawns, not understanding his long term game or targets are a basis for his whole character, while some stuff has been revealed spoiling the mystery in the process some other aspects should have been kept in absolute darkness.
I would compare Sinister to Wolverine. We really didnt need to know about his past, it made both characters a lot less interesting and didnt really add much to improve the characters as they could have been improved in many ways without revealing their backgrounds.
+100 on this analysis of Sinister.
(I actually disagree on Wolverine's background though, I think his origin has added to his character.)
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by das_boot » 14 Sep 2019, 14:26

I kind of feel like recent years have made Sinister into a more scientifically minded version of the Joker, specifically the more fop/dandy version of him. I’m okay with it, because I DO think that he needed a bit of a shake up to get away from either the SPOOKY 80’s incarnation, or the EXTREME 90’s version. I think it works but I realise it’s not for everyone 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Oldmanlogan79 » 14 Sep 2019, 18:01

Fenix wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 19:00
Maddy is pretty much alive, or at least she should. So revising her is always a possibility, and its always welcome. Maddy got 2000% more interesting when Cyclops left her to chase Jean Grey and while some storylines after she was "revived" still make me feel uncomfortable (Nate and Maddy? REALLYYY?) her Red Queen activies were definitely funny and very defining and she is a good villain....
... so please, Hickman, more Maddy and her secrets :-)

If you mix Maddy and Sinister then you have a bomb as they have lots of unfinished business that I want to see dealt with.

Regarding Sinister and how he has been developed over the years...
I think he was mysterious, lethal, extremely powerful, grim and dark... and he never needed to be changed into something else.
Sinister is a backstage player, he moves the pieces from behind, he has his own agenda and his pawns, not understanding his long term game or targets are a basis for his whole character, while some stuff has been revealed spoiling the mystery in the process some other aspects should have been kept in absolute darkness.
I would compare Sinister to Wolverine. We really didnt need to know about his past, it made both characters a lot less interesting and didnt really add much to improve the characters as they could have been improved in many ways without revealing their backgrounds.

sinister
adjective
1.
giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen. (from dictionary)

You are so right Fénix !!

I knew the only thing I needed about this guy.... and it was that something evil or harmful was about to come if he was around!

I find Inferno´s version of the character (with Maddy and those demons) the most terrifyng of his appearances.

100% agree when you compare him to Wolverine....To reveal his background, agh, I ignore every comic-book about Woolverine´s past, except Weapon X by BWS of course, which contains everything yo need to know, no more please :? ...

BTW, in my opinion, the sense of humor and scenes of Sinister and his clones, have been the worst in these series for the moment..
Last edited by Oldmanlogan79 on 14 Sep 2019, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Oldmanlogan79 » 14 Sep 2019, 18:22

Cable wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 03:21

+100 on this analysis of Sinister.
(I actually disagree on Wolverine's background though, I think his origin has added to his character.)
Of course, has added to the character...but lost a fundamental characteristic which was the mystery itself...Mariko, Madripur, Sabbretooth, all of them are kind of Wolverine´s additions, I still think he did not need that past they wrote, but I respect your opinion too ...You were the one in this forum who liked Old Man Logan by Lemire, so I respect you even more!! ;)
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 14 Sep 2019, 19:04

Cable wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 03:21
The second death is if the first one is faked then she definitely dies during the Incursion during Secret Wars. Everybody except a very small few did.
To get around this you either have to say that literally everything ending disrupts her power or that in his new cosmic omnipotence Doom knew what would happen and prevented her death with her existing somewhere we never saw.
Obviously Hickman has to be aware of this problem as it is his own big story.
Hm.... could it be that you just answered the question we all have been debating since HoX #2, namely wether Moira creates alternate realities or reboots a singular one? Correct me if I'm wrong, but during those Incursions in Secret Wars, an two entire realities would collide and be destroyed. This was due to the Beyonders killing all of the Abstract cosmic entities at the end of time, and the ramifications of those deaths echoed back through time, causing the multiverse to collapse.

Now, if Moia just were to create an alternate reality upon dying, then she'd be reborn in a new timeline/reality right after an incursion occured. Yet, if she is just rebooting the same reality over and over again, then she just ceases to be when her entire reality collapses around her and no longer exists.

So, assuming that Moira X was still alive during Secret Wars and among those people who didn't survive the incursion, she does indeed create several loops of time all occuring in one singular reality, effectively re-shaped with each re-birth. And then when Franklin restired the 616, he also brought back Moira X. Otherwise, she would have been reborn as Moira XI in a new timeline, and we wouldn't be reading HoX and PoX.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 14 Sep 2019, 19:26

das_boot wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 14:26
I kind of feel like recent years have made Sinister into a more scientifically minded version of the Joker, specifically the more fop/dandy version of him. I’m okay with it, because I DO think that he needed a bit of a shake up to get away from either the SPOOKY 80’s incarnation, or the EXTREME 90’s version. I think it works but I realise it’s not for everyone 🤷‍♂️

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by _Rick_ » 14 Sep 2019, 19:39

Lavettye wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 19:04
Now, if Moia just were to create an alternate reality upon dying, then she'd be reborn in a new timeline/reality right after an incursion occured. Yet, if she is just rebooting the same reality over and over again, then she just ceases to be when her entire reality collapses around her and no longer exists.

So, assuming that Moira X was still alive during Secret Wars and among those people who didn't survive the incursion, she does indeed create several loops of time all occuring in one singular reality, effectively re-shaped with each re-birth. And then when Franklin restired the 616, he also brought back Moira X. Otherwise, she would have been reborn as Moira XI in a new timeline, and we wouldn't be reading HoX and PoX.
You're only allowing for two options. Either timeloop within 1 timeline or the splintering off of 1 timeline into multiple timelines at Moira's birth.
There's at least a 3rd. The one they used in Endgame and in multiple stories in the Marvel Universe. The one that follows the propositions of David Deutsch.

There are multiple identical timelines. When you travel into the past, you don't really travel into the past of your own timeline because that would be impossible. Your very presence alters the past making your existence there a paradox (the grandfather paradox). However you can avoid the paradox by travelling to ANOTHER timeline. One that resembles your own but is not your original one. You then affect that other timeline and those actions were ALWAYS meant to be part of that timeline's history. With this theory Moira's 1st life would be say... 606. When she died she went into 607. A timeline that happens to be identical up until Moira's birth. Then 608 and so one and so forth with 616 being her 11th (if indeed 616 is the 11th life). Timelines 606 to 616 would be identical until that point. This option "solves" the Moira problem during the incursions since there would be no 617 timeline for her to jump towards. 616 and 1610 were the last ones IIRC. It would be feasible that her power activated but didn't manage to place her anywhere else.

The graphic design in the timelines chart makes me think this option is definitively a possibility. If you look closely, Hickman portrays the timelines as existing in parallel even before Moira's birth. If it was splintering timelines, you'd think it would have a tree configuration (one line splitting off at birth). Of course it could just have been an aesthetic choice and mean nothing but Hickman tends to drop some hints in those pages... we'll have to wait to be sure.

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by das_boot » 14 Sep 2019, 23:16

So, not flexing any admin/mod muscles at all, to make this abundantly clear...

But do you think MAYBE we could move the Moira/timeline stuff to that thread in X-Pressions? I’m just thinking that it would make more sense to have all theories/“evidence” collated in one place rather than (and with the greatest of respect because i’ve done it too) wild speculation on the basis of no new evidence or information taking over each new issue thread in this story, where it doesn’t actually make sense to do so when we’ve been given no new information, as readers?

Just a thought is all 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 15 Sep 2019, 01:05

I see where you're coming from, and a few weeks back I had a similar thought of opening a separate topic all about speculations, ideas and preview information about the post HoX & PoX status quo, which naturally would also include theories on what was transpiring in HoX & Pox, and how it would be resolved.

Extracting just the timeline parts will be difficult, as HoX & PoX are designed to keep us guessing and speculating, and the various plot elements are intertwined. Can we truly discuss timeline theories without applying them to Moira's lifes? Can Moira's lifes be brought up, without trying to figure out what her plan is, or what transpired in life 6? Can you figure out her plan, without trying to understand when exactly she recruited Xavier & Magneto, or when they - in turn - sought out Sinister? How to adress the sinister feeling Xavier, and not mention Krakoan habitats, flower drugs and the secret cloning chamber….

True we may have strayed off-topic a bit, but as parts of the issue were set in X3, which has a connection to Moira IX's life, the timeline discussion IMO is as much on Topic as discussing old stories featuring a Sinister/Spider-Man connection.

Bottom line:
It's all connected, and with only four weeks of story left, right now I'd say let its run ist course. Or, if you must open up a second topic for ideas/attempts to explain the entirety of Hox & PoX. Extracting just some bits, like the timeline aspects, would be the approach that makes the least sense IMO.
Last edited by Lavettye on 15 Sep 2019, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Anna Raven » 15 Sep 2019, 02:44

I found the "Rogue Action Figure" variant of this today. So cool!
PSX_20190914_202556.jpg
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Magnus » 15 Sep 2019, 03:42

I'm certainly learning a lot from this thread... I didn't realize so many people disliked Gillen's take on Sinister, or that anyone actually liked those action figure alt covers...

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 15 Sep 2019, 04:28

I love those action figure variants so much. I've always been so impressed with how real they look in pictures. Never seen one in person though.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Anna Raven » 15 Sep 2019, 05:19

I think it looks pretty neat, esp. in person, it has a lot of depth that makes it look 3d. I sent that pic without any comments to a few of my friends and they all thought I'd bought an actual action figure haha.

And I like Gillen's Sinister also, as well as Hickman's version in Battlefield. It has a lot more personality and truly portrays him as a mad scientist.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by das_boot » 15 Sep 2019, 12:11

From Bleeding Cool, so it’s pinch of salt o’clock, however... this is a really interesting take

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Dragonzombie » 16 Sep 2019, 01:54

Image

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by nathanadler » 16 Sep 2019, 09:58

It seems Hickman is a fan of New Teen Titans, particularly #13 and the Vegan homeworld what with him revealing Krakoa was once Okkara.

Also, where might Doug's transmoding of Krakoan flora might mean?

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Sinister Secret #2

Post by nathanadler » 16 Sep 2019, 10:43

Sinister Secret #2: Which mutant cut down in his prime was "trendsetting"? Given it also mentions "that the mutant would stop wearing human clothes and join the stampede across Krakoa" and Douglas Ramsey is shown in this issue transmoding Krakoan flora, I'd suggest it's him. That is, he was "cut down in his prime" during Fall of the Mutants, specifically New Mutants #60, "would stop wearing human clothes" when he merged with Warlock and is the "stampede across Krakoa" the fact that he has spread the Transmode Virus when he uses his arm to touch the flora?

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 16 Sep 2019, 11:26

I wouldn't read too much into that Excalibur #31 story. Despite what it says on the page, it was revelaed later in the issue that the Vega-Men were not genetic clones, but earth&elements based constructs, merely looking like them. That Wolverine is made of ice, Cyclops shot hot Lava from is head, and Nightcrawler "teleported" by melting into the ground and being reconstructed elsewhere with a time delay. Also, they only functioned as long as they were physically connected to the ground. Once separated, they became lifeless organic husks.

Other than that, Excalibur #31 reminded me of the inconsistencies of Krakoa being able to talk or not.
- Initially in Giant Size X-Men #1, Krakoa did say a few words, but in Deadly Genesis, that was retconned into Xavier making the team think that Krakoa talked to them, when actually it was just making noises.
- In Excalibur #31, Krakoa's son (a spore that fell off when it was ejected into space) landed on an Island where it was able to talk to the natives of the island, and also to Nightcrawler. He even translates back and forth what Nightcrawler or the natives are saying.
- The Krakoa origin in that Journey into Mystery story, (happening definitely before GS #1) also has Krakoka mutter a few words in English to Nick Fury.
- Yet now we have Cypher deciphering Krakoa talk, and nobody but him can translate it, not even Xavier, who can only "read" Krakoa empathically.

I wonder how, if at all, Hickman will fix that mess.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by nathanadler » 17 Sep 2019, 02:31

Is the Great Tree referred to in HoX #1 going to tie in with Doug and the team's time in Asgard?

Sinister's Secrets:
1. Red shoes: Rasputin is wearing red shoes so is she the sinister Sinister? Or is Sinister trying to get back home?
2. Still thinking Doug Ramsey over Jumbo Carnation
3. Madelyne's knowledge of the truth behind the self-healing computer in the Outback
4. Apocalypse comes out of marshy weeds on the following cover so I'm thinking of him over Namor... or better yet Betsy Braddock. Will the "what" between her and Kwannon finally be cleaned up?
[Sinister’s claim about Proudstar seems like gossip column clickbait at this stage]
5. Obvious answer is Logan, Jean, Cyclops and Emma. Jean was never married with children (Nathan was under her care, but not her child). Is it Nightcrawler and Meggan?
6. Progerian mutant is Ernst… or Moira given Ernst doesn’t have destroyed samples
7. Adam-X
8. Four Horsemen
9. Most obvious answer is Jean and Phoenix…
One of the precipitating events that triggered Inferno was a transmode infection (in Limbo) which we are seeing here on Krakoa… Also, is Hickman’s circular design throughout the series connected to Dante’s circles?
10. Someone Mr. Sinister cooked up in a lab and has planted

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Sinister Secret #7

Post by nathanadler » 22 Sep 2019, 08:46

I don't believe it's been established that Sinister knew about Vulcan, which is interesting now when you consider he was trained by Moira MacTaggert. Instead of Adam-X, I wonder if Hickman has an alternative reveal in mind, a Summers brother whose history is completely unknown at this stage, but who could conceivably have been in Sinister's hands all this time!?

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Sep 2019, 09:04

Adding a 5th Summers brother just seems...needlessly complicated.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by nathanadler » 22 Sep 2019, 09:29

Revealing a 4th seems similarly needless.

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Sep 2019, 10:57

Except, unlike Vulcan who is 100% confirmed in the role. Adam-X is only fan/author speculation at this point. Gambit actually has more validity in the role. So we'd actually be at SIX, potential, Summers brothers if Hickman decided to answer that question.

...I'd rather him bring back the Externals and that's a storyline I'd love to see never come back.
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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by nathanadler » 22 Sep 2019, 11:24

tokenBG1009 wrote:Except, unlike Vulcan who is 100% confirmed in the role.
Sadly Brubaker went too "Star Trek" with that story:(
tokenBG1009 wrote:Adam-X is only fan/author speculation at this point.
We will see if Hickman keeps him that way.
tokenBG1009 wrote:Gambit actually has more validity in the role.
Not if you knew Claremont's original plan for who was inhabiting his clone (I'm not talking what he revealed in X-Men: The End, but Chris's original plan which I got out of him in an interview the other year - let's just say the kid in the orphanage wasn't named Nathan by coincidence;)
tokenBG1009 wrote:So we'd actually be at SIX, potential, Summers brothers if Hickman decided to answer that question.
Unless he sticks with Adam-X.
tokenBG1009 wrote:...I'd rather him bring back the Externals and that's a storyline I'd love to see never come back.
I hear ya!

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Re: Powers of X #4 (SPOILERS)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Sep 2019, 11:43

Gambit still has more validity purely by the fact that "author intention" means diddly squat compared to what's on the page.
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