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House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

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AntiBody
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by AntiBody » 10 Aug 2019, 17:51

Finally got to reading these three issues!! And, of course, I LOVED THEM SO MUCH!!

I've been taking a break from comics for a while now, and when I heard this was announced, I figured it might just be a great reintroduction to it all! Love that Hickman is being Hickman - big ideas, big science, big plot twists...
Nu-D wrote:
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This is the first time since Decimation that X-Men is being written like there’s a future worth fighting for. Mutants are being shown as dynamic, adaptive, and full of exciting possibilities. I haven’t felt this energy in an X-Men book since Morison. (Granted, my X-history is spotty from Decimation to now, because whenever I dip my toe it’s been dull, dreary or downright awful).
Couldn't agree more. This is obviously going to be compared to Morrison a lot and in a great many ways, but this is the crucial one for me: the energy of the story, and the energy it's bringing to the readers. Seeing the amount of responses in the HoX and PoX posts alone, man! That the X-Men are being given more of a purpose beyond surviving extinction is just so great to see.

This story is also going to be compared a lot and in a great many ways to his Time Runs Out/Secret Wars epic - or at least I'm going to compare them a lot, haha. And to sort of type out a thought as I'm thinking it: when the TRO stuff started in Avengers and New Avengers, I immediately got the feeling that I needed (truly, needed) to examine every last panel, graphic, and word. I'm not getting that sense here. Of course, there are a number of different factors: I was in a different place with comics when TRO started, I was also just in a different place mentally/emotionally... but what I think the clincher is is that TRO was about how literally everything dies and what men do when faced with such an impossible scenario. Also, simply put, the universe I grew up with was going to die, so that made the story feel all that much more important to me. This feels important so far, but in a different way. This time, I feel more like I need to absorb everything, rather than examine it all. I feel like I need to let this all wash over me and play out the way Hickman intends it to. I'll go back and reread here and there, to pick up the small bits he's leaving around, but I'm going to approach this story in a very different way than I did TRO/SW. Which isn't to say this story doesn't feel important, mind you; as many have pointed out above, we're just 3 issues in and some incredible stuff has already gone down!!

This bomb with Moira's lives is just so, SO good. Really can't wait to see where that all goes - especially with Life 6, what happened there??
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Gremlin » 10 Aug 2019, 20:02

Anyone seen the Netflix show Russian Doll? Similar theme to this issue, woman dies and then wakes up at a given point with all the knowledge of her previous life/death.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 11 Aug 2019, 01:56

So here's something else I thought about:
- According to the chart, the tenth Moira faked her death with a Shi'Ar golem, whatever that is. Apparently something that will seem very much like the real deal. It might actually be similar to that artificial Stuff creature who was part of the Imperial Guard during Morrison's Cassandra Nova/Mummudrai storyline. They later turned Stuff into a simulacrum of Nova's body and trapped her mind in it. Now…. could it be the case, that Moira had to not marry Xavier, so that he could fall in love with Lilandra and become her royal consort for a while? All in order to make sure that they'd have access to Shi'Ar science?
- There's that one timeline in which Moira was left comatose for About a year before she died. I guess from that, Moira and Xavier learned that no matter what her mental status is, for her powers to kick in it's her body that needs to die. For all we know, it could actually have been Moira's real consciousness that was operating the golem, and it safely returned to her actual body that was hidden in a stasis tube somewhere upon the golem's death. That leaves their mental exchange on the astral plane right upon Moira's death in X-Men #108 actually intact, a true conversation between Charles and Moira, and not some golem dying in her place.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by _Rick_ » 11 Aug 2019, 19:04

Magnus wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 22:43
Quick look at NXM #114, Cassandra Nova says "the human race will be as extinct as Neanderthal man within four generations."
I never understood how Morrison got editorial to go along with that. My guess is that no one fully realized what that meant until some fans pointed it out to them. Even if we're generous with the generations, such a statement would mean that any birth from then on would have to be a mutant one. Basically no more human children since if even just one human were to be born, their life expectancy would potentially exceed the "within 4 generations" timeframe and thus humans would still exist and wouldn't be "as extinct as Neanderthal man".

Basically the 616 would shift from a society mostly like our own but with a handful of superpowered people, to a superpowered society with all that that entails. Such massive amount of superpowers would profoundly change how the world works in such a deep level that even non-mutant books would have to acknowledge it in their storytelling even if they weren't doing stories about mutants.

I don't blame Quesada for doing Decimation. He had to reverse it to keep a functioning universe. I blame him for letting the insane mutant explosion happen in the first place.

Hickman's changes aren't as drastic (at least so far), so there's a better chance they'll stick. Granted we haven't seen it all so it's a bit early to tell, but I can see a lot of it surviving if editorial is willing, without completely affecting every other story in the 616.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Aug 2019, 22:12

The universe was still alive and functioning well. It didn't affect a single book, and it's not like the MU is ever going to move to 100 years, or even 10 years from now anyway. Besides, Nova could just be wrong or exaggerating for dramatic effect.

And House of M was not only unnecessary, but was utterly stupid- it destroyed the X-men line because it made impossible to tell any other stories other than survival ones.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Aug 2019, 22:44

Never thought I’d say this: But I 100% agree with Rick.

Edit: Not even going there lol

Anyway, back to the book:

So I guess Moira is going to be this book’s Namor.
Last edited by Blackcyclops on 12 Aug 2019, 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 11 Aug 2019, 23:53

Funny thing, I read somewhere else in a review that the "lost decade" comment might just be an outside of the story joke, with Hickmann refering to everything from Morrison's run till now, which is slightly more than a decade's worth of X-Men runs (Austen, Claremon, Bendis, Rosenberg, to name a few) as "lost". While there were some good stories in those years, it's actually true that the X-titles weren't conceptually innovative or progressive anymore. Instead quite a lot of it was repetitive or redundant, or mere reversals of previous ideas like much more mutants /no more mutants / mutants are repowered. There's a reason why the Avengers eventually outranked them as flagship title.

One more observation: Looking at the chart of Moira's linelines again, I'm convinced that she is indeed on her last life. The first line is cream-colored and then each life is a bit darker, from peach to orange, red would be the sixth life, then it moves on to brown. Moira X's line is black - it's the last. It doesn't go any darker than this.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 12 Aug 2019, 00:47

This feels like the twilight zone lol. Like this comes out and now everything before it is made being called retroactively bad jus to make this sound good. It’s possible for this 1 story (3 issues deep) to be good and Remender’s UXF to be good at the same time, we don’t gotta Worf the past to make the new writer come offs good lol...

The Avengers became the flagship because the company made them so (mind you X-books were STILL selling like hot cakes up through AvX...many of the new posters hated WatX but it sold amazingly lol) I’d put PAD’s X-Factor, Carey’s X-Men, K/Y’s X-Force, or basically most of everything through the Messiah Trilogy against Bendis’s Avengers any-day. And I liked ALOT of Bendis’s Avengers stuff...there’s more than just a few good runs between Morrison’s run (which is getting alot more love now than it did then lol) this story I’d argue. But hey we’re here now, so I’m all for a good run.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 12 Aug 2019, 00:53

The lost decade might be a reference not to the stories being bad necessarily- Hickman is a fan of Gillen, for example- but the fact the X-men were put in a corner by editorial and weren't allowed much, if any, forward movement.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by MartijnB » 12 Aug 2019, 10:57

ok, I find myself not responding to actual X-talk much but man this was... overwhelming...

First of all Hickman really has to be my favourite writer ever. It is just the sheer scope of his concepts that keeps me hooked. I (like others) had my doubts if that would gel well with the X-Men's beloved soap opera style and grounded analogies. To be fair I still have THOSE doubts, but hey, what I am seeing is worth the ride.

Ok, Moira.

Hickman has never outright wowed me and got me thinking like that before. Quite a feat.

There are implications here I have second thoughts about. Firstly the fact Moira was the X-Men's number one human associate. She loses that niche now. There's that.

More importantly, I have been thinking about what this means for Moira's motivations and altruism. Moira always seemed this noble, good, selfless character. With this retcon, she basically became a person who is just trying all options, including less noble ones, the Moira we saw just happens to be one that sided with the heroes.

It also means, if Xavier reading her mind indeed happened in this universe, that Xavier had a lot of foreknowledge before founding the X-Men. This could potentially add to Xavier's shadier side full of secrets he kept from his students and what not. Xavier could do without that to be fair...

What I LIKE about this is that it just makes Moira so much more important. Moira is a good character to make important.

Now.

I saw the theory in this thread on this forum by summerset that maybe Moira's mysterious 6th life may be the 616-version of Moira. I like that theory a LOT.
- It would mean that "our" Moira had not gone borderline evil yet, as the craziest of Moira's (Trask-killer, Magneto-fangirl and Apocalypse-fangirl) all came thereafter. This would help a bit in letting her remain the heroic character I want her to be.
- It would also mean that Moira giving Xavier foreknowledge happened in another universe, making "our" Xavier a bit less shady.

Then maybe Moira 6 still died at the hands of Mystique, and maybe Moira 10 would end up here anyway because interdimensional travel? If this is right, I am eager to see how a universe where Xavier had foreknowledge would pan out...

So yeah... I still dont know where to stand on this retcon, but it is well exciting enough to stay on board.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by das_boot » 12 Aug 2019, 11:07

Actually, good point. Who is the X-Men’s staunchest human ally now? Stevie Hunter?
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 12 Aug 2019, 11:18

das_boot wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 11:07
Actually, good point. Who is the X-Men’s staunchest human ally now? Stevie Hunter?
Kavita Rao, Val Cooper, Annie Grazhaskatchan or whatever

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 12 Aug 2019, 11:49

FlatscAnnie had a Mutant son, IIRC, so her's weren't entirely altruistic motives. Val Cooper is most times pro, but sometimes con, depending on her status with the government.

Other than Kavita Rao and Stevie Hunter, I can hardly think of anyone who wasn't either a girlfriend of a member (Trish Tilby, Vera Cantor, Lee Forrester), or a relative of a mutant. Then again, up till now, Moira's involvement could have been led back to those things too: former girlfriend of Xavier, mother of a mutant child.

Humans who are/were in the X-Men lives just because they believed in the cause are very rare. Maybe Fred Duncan in the very early days or Alistair Stuart in Excalibur and Irene Merryweather. I'd not even fully count Tom Corsi, as he only got involved after his life was forever altered by the demon bear. Still, he would have had any right to be bitter and could have directed his anger at mutants, but didn't.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Dragonzombie » 12 Aug 2019, 18:52

Timeline 6 is 616 pre hickman? Timeline 9 is still going?

11 will probably be the same as 10 sans negative future ending.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by XtremeOne1 » 12 Aug 2019, 19:49

Dragonzombie wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 18:52
Timeline 6 is 616 pre hickman? Timeline 9 is still going?

11 will probably be the same as 10 sans negative future ending.
We have no confirmation what timeline 6 is.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 12 Aug 2019, 19:50

Maybe the Exiles House of M Moira timeline?

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Majestic » 12 Aug 2019, 20:23

So it turns out that, if enough different people tell a "single" story over a long enough period, dramatic ironies just fall out all over the place. It's fun to stumble across them, I find.

Image
Claremont & Lee, X-Men #2. 1991.

Moira's potential alterations to Magneto being referenced here certainly wouldn't have seemed like a big deal to someone who was already throwing in with and/or manipulating mutant figureheads as a matter of trial and error in a centuries-long experiment. Indeed, such alterations might be seen as a blessing by someone who regained her childhood many times… but never her innocence.

EDIT:
MartijnB wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 10:57
More importantly, I have been thinking about what this means for Moira's motivations and altruism. Moira always seemed this noble, good, selfless character. With this retcon, she basically became a person who is just trying all options, including less noble ones, the Moira we saw just happens to be one that sided with the heroes.
I don't think it makes her less of a good person. She does ultimately fall for Xavier and his dream (indeed, largely because of the dream, as it turns out), after all. It doesn't work out the first time, but in life 10, she opts to "break all the rules" with Charles. Not Erik. Not Apocalypse. From this, I think we can deduce that peaceful coexistence between human and mutant is still Moira's desired end state. I'm sure her faith in it wavered—how could it not over centuries?—but I do think it's still there. Plus, Moira certainly knows that there's as much to be learned from failures as from successes.

What's more, while Moira has had many lifetimes, her existence is still totally linear. From her perspective, any suffering caused in any iteration before her final loop will never occur, and therefore has no moral weight. But if that erased suffering improves life on Earth in/after the final loop, it has significant moral value. (We the readers, however, have seen Marvel dust off the corpse of the Age of Apocalypse and parade it around enough times to know better—that time isn't linear and that old sins don't really get undone—but it's not Moira's fault she can't read the comics.)
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 12 Aug 2019, 20:37

Those are the things I freaking love!!!!
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Dragonzombie » 12 Aug 2019, 21:31

Timeline 4 is interesting. It's basically directors cut slightly rearranged 616 with an ending.

Timeline 9 seems like it could carry a new series on for years. Probably the other book hickman wants to do. Or not.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by AntiBody » 12 Aug 2019, 22:19

Something that's been buzzing around in my head since reading this: I have, on countless occasions, wished I made a great many different choices in my life. Everyone has; I'm not unique. Who here at one point or another hasn't wished they could start their lives all over, knowing everything we know now?

However, a few years ago I had this weird idea out of nowhere: What if I could propel my consciousness into the past, but also into my own body? Not unlike how Kitty did in DoFP. Furthermore, retaining all my memories and knowledge, what if I could pick the moment I went back to? To make an impossibly long story short, my family moved when I was 11 and it was a really bad experience for me, one that rippled over several years. I've been playing with this idea in my head that if I could propel my consciousness into my past self, I'd pick the moment my dad and I slept in a hotel as we were moving. He and I went ahead of my other family members so he could get me to school on time. With my old memories and knowledge, I would own that whole moving experience. And then I'd take it further from there: make sound investments, exercise more while I was younger, try harder during my first attempt at college, blah blah blah. Lately, I've been having fun thinking about potential pitfalls lol - for example, I wonder how adolescent hormones might affect an experience like that! Trying to better navigate your life and the world, but with teen angst :lol:

So yeah, reading about Moira doing this was an absolutely insane shocker for me! :o
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 12 Aug 2019, 22:34

Majestic wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 20:23
What's more, while Moira has had many lifetimes, her existence is still totally linear. From her perspective, any suffering caused in any iteration before her final loop will never occur, and therefore has no moral weight. But if that erased suffering improves life on Earth in/after the final loop, it has significant moral value. (We the readers, however, have seen Marvel dust of the corpse of the Age of Apocalypse and parade it around enough times to know better—that time isn't linear and that old sins don't really get undone—but it's not Moira's fault she can't read the comics.)
Well, the X-Men have time-traveled several times - for example Kitty swapped consciousnesses with Kate Pryde from DOFP and later, Rachel traveled to the present, revealing that Kate's actions in the present had not changed the DOFP but probably created an alternate timeline… unless it already was an alternate timeline to begin with. Moira has knowledge of that. As such, she would or rather should at least consider that whatever she does will impact lots for other people in the lifes/timelines she lives through, as they don't get to hit "reboot" at the end of their lifespans.
And even if she were to assume that she is rebooting the 616 timeline over and over, she still would have to deal with the moral weight of her actions… she may assume that at the end of her life she gets sent back to do it all over again, but she can never be entirely sure. After all Destiny said her lifes were limited, and she's been around enough mutants whose powers were negated by outside means. Therefore, Moira could not be sure, which life would be her last and which version of events would be the one to stick.

Anyway, while Moira's lifes are indeed linerar, I belive that Moira (and Xavier?) eventualy stopped looking at her dilemma in a linear way. Life 2 is about discovering her ability. Lifes 3-5 are Xavier related, deliberately not meeting him, meeting and marrying him, and pushing their first meeting to a sooner date. By life 6, with half of her lifetimes behind her, they may have changed their approach and no longer tried getting it "right" each time. Lifes 7-9, the rather drastic choices, might be deliberate wrong attempts where Moira wasn't even hoping to reach the perfect outcome. She may have mainly been there in order to learn certain key events from the Trasks, Magneto and Apocalypse, so that in the currentand probably last life 10 she had aquired everything she needs to succeed and bring forth a glorious age for mutants… or rather the new status quo for the upcoming X-titles.

It's like all those little missions in the original AoA titles, where one team searched for Illyana, another for Destiny, yet another acquired the M'Kraan crstal, another ran interfernce, and so on. Only this time, Moira is working all these missions by herself, and she is doing them one life at a time.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by manuel_mc89 » 13 Aug 2019, 14:13

You know, this is probably nothing, but the color of the cure that Moira developed jumped out to me as the same as Krakoa's flowers, also given that her gloves were green.

Apologies if I already said this.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Nu-D » 14 Aug 2019, 01:32

Lavettye wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 22:34
Majestic wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 20:23
What's more, while Moira has had many lifetimes, her existence is still totally linear. From her perspective, any suffering caused in any iteration before her final loop will never occur, and therefore has no moral weight. But if that erased suffering improves life on Earth in/after the final loop, it has significant moral value. (We the readers, however, have seen Marvel dust of the corpse of the Age of Apocalypse and parade it around enough times to know better—that time isn't linear and that old sins don't really get undone—but it's not Moira's fault she can't read the comics.)
Well, the X-Men have time-traveled several times - for example Kitty swapped consciousnesses with Kate Pryde from DOFP and later, Rachel traveled to the present, revealing that Kate's actions in the present had not changed the DOFP but probably created an alternate timeline… unless it already was an alternate timeline to begin with. Moira has knowledge of that. As such, she would or rather should at least consider that whatever she does will impact lots for other people in the lifes/timelines she lives through, as they don't get to hit "reboot" at the end of their lifespans.
And even if she were to assume that she is rebooting the 616 timeline over and over, she still would have to deal with the moral weight of her actions… she may assume that at the end of her life she gets sent back to do it all over again, but she can never be entirely sure. After all Destiny said her lifes were limited, and she's been around enough mutants whose powers were negated by outside means. Therefore, Moira could not be sure, which life would be her last and which version of events would be the one to stick.

Anyway, while Moira's lifes are indeed linerar, I belive that Moira (and Xavier?) eventualy stopped looking at her dilemma in a linear way. Life 2 is about discovering her ability. Lifes 3-5 are Xavier related, deliberately not meeting him, meeting and marrying him, and pushing their first meeting to a sooner date. By life 6, with half of her lifetimes behind her, they may have changed their approach and no longer tried getting it "right" each time. Lifes 7-9, the rather drastic choices, might be deliberate wrong attempts where Moira wasn't even hoping to reach the perfect outcome. She may have mainly been there in order to learn certain key events from the Trasks, Magneto and Apocalypse, so that in the currentand probably last life 10 she had aquired everything she needs to succeed and bring forth a glorious age for mutants… or rather the new status quo for the upcoming X-titles.

It's like all those little missions in the original AoA titles, where one team searched for Illyana, another for Destiny, yet another acquired the M'Kraan crstal, another ran interfernce, and so on. Only this time, Moira is working all these missions by herself, and she is doing them one life at a time.
Moira may know about the multiverse, and how branching timelines work. But that doesn’t mean she knows her life creates a branching timeline at every rebirth. As she experiences it, the previous timeline ceases to exist when she’s reborn. Without theoretical or empirical data, she doesn’t know that her powers operate the same way as time travel.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 14 Aug 2019, 01:40

True, but either way, her actions have consequence for someone, either for the people in those timelines if they continue to move on even after her death, or for the people in that one timeline she keeps rebooting time and again, once Moira's lived her final life and history settles on the version of her last life. It's one or the other, Moira can't just shrugg that off.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Nu-D » 14 Aug 2019, 01:46

Moira’s choices in her last, permanent life have no different moral dimensions than our own choices in our real, last permanent lives. We learn what we can from our past experiences, and make the best moral choice we can, accepting that there are unseen costs and collateral consequences. Moira also uses her past experience to make the best choices she can, recognizing that some people may suffer unanticipated negative consequences. The fact that those people had a better life in a previous timeline isn’t any more significant than the fact that someone, somewhere had a better life before they crossed paths with me.

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