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House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

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MultipleMadrox
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by MultipleMadrox » 07 Aug 2019, 22:56

To play devil's advocate, I didn't see anywhere that Hickman said specifically the 10th is 616, just that in the infographic at the end the Genoshan genocide and Moira's death were reversed on the timeline -- which does make it match up with 616 now, but he is not that explicit.

I feel like House of X/Powers of X reads a lot like New Avengers/Avengers did for me, in that Powers/Avengers does a lot of set-up and world building but is a bit dry, then House/New Avengers is where the actual magic happens.

I was thinking a lot today about Moira's history and how she was the "only human" to contract the original Legacy Virus. I wonder what, if any, effect that will have on her ability to come back an 11th time, or if it'll be hand-waved that she had access to Beast's cure in Shi'ar space or wherever she was all this time.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Aug 2019, 23:00

UrbanExplorer wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 22:05
The tenth, the current one? Flapflop said that Hickmann said that it’s 616. Maybe HOX was indirectly responsible. Or... maybe..

Flapflop was drawing that conclusion indirectly from the tweet that fixes the genocide/“fake death” moments. But his Twitter doesn’t explicitly say that the 10th life is the 616...and that’s why I say that we really won’t know until the story is over because then we’ll see how HoX/PoX lineup with everything happening in the current Marvel U.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 07 Aug 2019, 23:11

I stopped thinking about that when I realized that I actually have no idea anymore

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Anna Raven » 07 Aug 2019, 23:40

I'm totally down for the Moirpocalypse.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cosmos666 » 07 Aug 2019, 23:54

Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 20:33
Moira killed the Trask because she knew they made Sentinels.
Then why wait a whole live to go Terminator on their asses. Also, notice that it is only after life 6 that Moira starts to resort to outright violence: Terminator!Moira (7), Magneto (8), Apocalypse (9). Before that her attempts were all non-violent: cure (3), co-dreamer (4), refuge (5) . Something huge happened in life 6 and that's going to be a central point of the story, IMO.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Aug 2019, 00:10

Cosmos666 wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 23:54
Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 20:33
Moira killed the Trask because she knew they made Sentinels.
Then why wait a whole live to go Terminator on their asses. Also, notice that it is only after life 6 that Moira starts to resort to outright violence: Terminator!Moira (7), Magneto (8), Apocalypse (9). Before that her attempts were all non-violent: cure (3), co-dreamer (4), refuge (5) . Something huge happened in life 6 and that's going to be a central point of the story, IMO.
Well she had to train and find the threat of the Trasks. I mean maybe when Moira vanished she didn’t just go training and atart her killing but I’ll bet it’s not much else to it because that lifetime was shown and not presented as a mystery like 6.

Now I’m not denying that timeline 6 isn’t important though but what we see in text, Hickman explains why Moira’s methods change.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Aug 2019, 00:12

So Dream’s End to the present is 3 years.

Also funny that the AvX stuff was a Lost Decade in a previous lifeline when X0 is only 10 years before HoX starts. So X0 is Year 42 basically.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Magnus » 08 Aug 2019, 00:30

Seems my inclination that the 616 might not be the 'origin' timeline and instead a repeat was right, just not in the way I imagined, heh.

I didn't really want to touch the timeline stuff (especially since others here know it a lot better than I do) but looking at the stuff at the end, it seems WAAAAY too condensed. And Cyclops is totally in his 40s at youngest, screw you all Then again, we still aren't even sure which timeline is the 616, so there's still wiggle room going forward I suppose.

Very much an infodump issue, but written well enough that it was still entrancing. I don't mind there being charts and prose and such, though I do with the timeline chart at the end was just one page (or at least a double spread) because having to flip back and forth between pages is really awkward.

Really loved the Destiny stuff here (apart from Pyro's 'mother').

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Majestic » 08 Aug 2019, 02:33

Cosmos666 wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 23:54
Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 20:33
Moira killed the Trask because she knew they made Sentinels.
Then why wait a whole live to go Terminator on their asses.
She could've tried another approach first (one I expect may become plot relevant later; thus its omission here so it can be unveiled at a dramatically appropriate time in the future). And because she had to spend a whole bunch of years up front learning how to effectively terminate.
UrbanExplorer wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 21:46
Sure it is, she is just living her own Groundhog Day
EDIT: I only just noticed that the panels of Moira watching Xavier from afar in a bar take place on Groundhog Day (there's a poster along Moira's eyeline to Charles that reads "Groundhog Day Happy Hour").
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Flapflop » 08 Aug 2019, 08:25

Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 23:00
UrbanExplorer wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 22:05
The tenth, the current one? Flapflop said that Hickmann said that it’s 616. Maybe HOX was indirectly responsible. Or... maybe..

Flapflop was drawing that conclusion indirectly from the tweet that fixes the genocide/“fake death” moments. But his Twitter doesn’t explicitly say that the 10th life is the 616...and that’s why I say that we really won’t know until the story is over because then we’ll see how HoX/PoX lineup with everything happening in the current Marvel U.
I still think it is, because after you put the Genosha Genocide and her "death" in right order all the 10th timeline events match the events of the 616 universe
Majestic wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 02:33
EDIT: I only just noticed that the panels of Moira watching Xavier from afar in a bar take place on Groundhog Day (there's a poster along Moira's eyeline to Charles that reads "Groundhog Day Happy Hour").
:shock: :D 8-) Nice touch of the creators
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 08 Aug 2019, 08:29

Wait? Really? :shock:

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Lavettye » 08 Aug 2019, 09:45

Flapflop wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 08:25
I still think it is, because after you put the Genosha Genocide and her "death" in right order all the 10th timeline events match the events of the 616 universe
It's not only that. The preview blurb in the previous issue said "The curious case of Moira X" and the story title is "The uncanny life of Moira X". If X is here once again not a letter but the roman number, it refers to Moira Ten, or her tenth life as the current incarnation, namely the one we've been seeing in the X-titles until now.

Anyway - this whole thing is huge, and while I basically also dislike retconning one of the few human supporters for mutants into having been a mutant herself all this time, the overall story seems to be worth it. I am still grasping all the ramifications, like it now makes perfect sense that she refered to Proteus as Mutant X. It also puts the birth of Proteus into a different perspective. In the past there were some theories that he must have been Xavier's son, as no two humans should be able to create such a powerful mutant. Turns out his mother was a mutant. I also thought of Moira as a bit cold, as there never was that much panel time about her grieving over Proteus. In hindsight, she has lost children before, and is on a repetitive life cycle. By now she should be used to caring for people and losing them, and even if she meets them again in her next life or not - it never is the same again.

After all, her life isn't that repetitive and it's not just trial and error until she gets it right. While she can reproduce some events, like enrolling at Oxford, opening her lab or handing in specific scientific papers to win a nobel prize, she can't reproduce the human connections and interactions. She can't fall in love the same way she did when she met someone the first time. In subsequent lives, she has the full knowledge of the other person and their lives together, as such there's no surprise, no curiousity, no butterflies on her end, and even if she were to try and fake all that, the other person would probably sense something being off and inauthentic.

I feel really sorry for her and her parents too. Can you imagine the horror of having to live through about 10-15 years of childhood, always pretending to be something less than you are, always afraid someone might find out, and probably being bored to hell by the early years who may be nearly identical in each incarnation? I'd think that Moira grew more distant from her parents (who unknowingly put her through the same stuff time and again) with each cycle.

By the way, the retcon also means that Moira isn't really that brillaint a scientist as she appears to be by winning a nobel prize at age 27. After all she had a lot of more decades to do all the work, and she also had the memories of other's scientific discovieries that other people whould have reach years later, but now Moira could mix with her own work and pass off as her own discoveries. Thinking back to scenes where Moira was angry with Xavier over the Xavier Protocols or the decision to keep the secondary X-Men hidden, also make her somewhat of a hypocrite now. There must have been a lot of worse things she did in her previous lives.

Someone on the first page of this thread pointed out that this is now the third issue in a row without a focus on the actual X-Men... indeed it is. But I choose not to be bothered by it - after all it doesn't say X-Men on the cover. :-)
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Flapflop » 08 Aug 2019, 11:12

Being the tenth incarnation even more makes sense:

- Why she left Xavier, they already tried twice (4 and 5) to be a real couple so she leaves him this time
- Proteus powers are bit similiar. He needs a new host each time while she finds herself back in time each time
- Why she 'fell in love' with Banshee, if it was real love or just a fling to have a men in her life again, it was at least something new
- Why she left them all in X-men #1: by then she already had tried a love live with Xavier (twice) and Magneto and in 616 with Banshee. She loved them all so could not stand what was happening anymore (or was ruining the plans she had with Xavier and Magneto)
- Not being detected as a mutant but still being a mutant she could use the story she got the Legacy Virus as the first human
- Knowing the ingeredients of the Mutant cure probably made finding a cure for the Legacy Virus easier

Questions:
- Was everything that happened till now all part of the new plan of Xavier and Moira 10? Or did they still acted seperately at moments
- Like with the Krakoa incident and Vulcans team recruited? Planned or Xavier forcing Moira to help with the new kids?
- And did Xavier knew the real Moira didn't die and he helped by faking the whole death on the Astral Plane scene? Or did she act on her own then
- If she didn't die, where did she go an what did she do behind the scenes
- Xavier died at the end of AvsX. But his mind was still in the Astral Plane. Was that also part of the plan?

Lets see where Hox and PoX wille lead us next time and will answer these questions. In the mean time i have made a thread in X-pressions to talk about the ramifications of this retcon. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9188

Another thing i wonder: HoX #2 is the first title outlined red in the reading order. Maybe all red titles are Moira centered?
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Aug 2019, 11:40

I thought it was because the issue was so significant. I remember Hickman said this issue would be super important.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Mesmerizer » 08 Aug 2019, 11:48

Her name suddenly fits her like a glove. One of the proposed origins for the Scottish name "Moira" is the Greek word "moira," meaning "fate" or "destiny." So, in that third incarnation, we had two Destinies pitted against each other.

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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Flapflop » 08 Aug 2019, 12:16

Mesmerizer wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 11:48
Her name suddenly fits her like a glove. One of the proposed origins for the Scottish name "Moira" is the Greek word "moira," meaning "fate" or "destiny." So, in that third incarnation, we had two Destinies pitted against each other.
Shells are falling from my eyes by every revelation. Hickman really knows his history in general and of the X-men and finds a way to rewrite it without losing anything of what has happened, even stronger make even more sense.

I really have to reread every issue Moira ever had a part in to see if I can already can see behind the curtain or to make sense of what realy happened.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Oldmanlogan79 » 08 Aug 2019, 12:47

Hello people!!!
First Post!!!
Just to say that after thirty years of reading the series, every page Hickman is writing (including the text ones with graphic designs) are thrilling me like in the better days...there is so much though and good art, and really good twists...I also hope that Hickman tells us the first story of Krakoa mixing what happened (The perfect mix between Giant size XM1 / Classic XM 1 & XM Deadly Genesis....Would love this comic).
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Quick and Dead » 08 Aug 2019, 13:54

Welcome to the UXN boards, OldManLogan79!

I keep thinking about Proteus too. Moira broke up with Professor X without explanation while he was serving in Korea. Knowing the importance of Omega Mutants, could she have intentionally gone back to Joe MacTaggert specifically to produce Proteus?

And this is another stretch so please don't judge me... In New X-Men #126, Jean Grey is housing all of Professor's X consciousness since he is without a body. Since this is a large feat, some of Charles memories start to slip away. "Twelfth birthday is gone. Just gone. Such a nice day with Moira.... Gone..." Could Charles have forgotten Moira's secret at some point and this is what leads to the "Lost Decade" where Moira was in hiding and Professor X had none of her guidance thus leading to M-Day, Phoenix Five, etc.?
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Aug 2019, 15:15

Interesting idea...

The only thing I’ll say is that if Moira 10 is the current universe then AvX and Mday still had to happened. It just happened in both timelines because Moira says she was with Charles for the Lost decade stuff. And we know she wasnt in the current timeline. Also, the current timeline stuff like AvX wouldn’t be a lost decade since it’s only been a decade between the X-Men forming and House Of x.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by manuel_mc89 » 08 Aug 2019, 15:40

Guys, check out this tweet by Pepe Larraz
https://twitter.com/PepeLarraz/status/1 ... 66337?s=09

What do you think it means, the change in Moira's look from
left to right?
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Gremlin » 08 Aug 2019, 16:57

Not too sure what he means and I’ve read this issue multiple times.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cable » 08 Aug 2019, 16:59

This book is both awesome and terrifying in the audacity of its ambition. But this was always excitedly expected when it comes to Hickman.

So to be clear what are people's opinions on whether Moira is reincarnated in a different reality every time or whether the actual timeline she is in is reset to zero every time? I lean towards the former as while both are very confusing, the splitting of different timelines is simpler.

And count me as someone who loves the different graphic design elements combined with the traditional comics. I love seeing the breaks of information, the quotes, and the graphs.

Quick and Dead wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 13:54

I keep thinking about Proteus too. Moira broke up with Professor X without explanation while he was serving in Korea. Knowing the importance of Omega Mutants, could she have intentionally gone back to Joe MacTaggert specifically to produce Proteus?
You kind of get into a Story of Your Life situation (referring to the short story) but you have to think there is a specific reason for Proteus because why in the world would she let that happen again?
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Aug 2019, 17:03

I lean towards the former as well Cable. The latter seems less cool if that makes sense and like you said the other way is a tad bit simpler.
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cable » 08 Aug 2019, 17:42

Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 17:03
I lean towards the former as well Cable. The latter seems less cool if that makes sense and like you said the other way is a tad bit simpler.
The timeline reset gets way too complicated I think when you add in other sci-fi factors. What happens if Moira is cloned and her clone then dies? Does the timeline reset to when the clone was born? What happens then when Moira Prime dies? It goes back again to when she died? But then would this be a "death" for Moira Clone? What happens if Moira travels back in time and meets her younger self and they both die? Does she remember her younger life or her older life? What happens if Rogue steals Moira's power and then dies? Does it reset to when Rogue is born? But then Moira needs to be reborn earlier. It all gets nuts. Different timelines can handle the permutations. Though then that gets complicated too when you consider using interdimensional travel then Moira X could go meet Moira VIII except this would change the memories that Moira IX has which in turns would theoretically change the memories of Moira X WHILE she is meeting Moira VIII. Essentially the possibilities of permutations start to really bloom and at that point you have multiple Moira Xs. Moira X-1, Moira X-2, and so on.

Also if Leech strangles Moira to death then does she not reincarnate?
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Re: House of X #2 (SPOILERS)

Post by Monolith » 08 Aug 2019, 17:47

I think Larraz is referring to when Moira sits on the bench with Xavier, she's looking to her left (at him). However, in the first few pages, although she's dressed the same, she's looking to her right. So the implication is that Moira is explaining the Many Lives of Moira X to someone other than Xavier, and it's not happening at the same time as the bench scene.

And manuel, about your earlier confusion, imagine Moira's power like David Alleyne's (Prodigy). Moira's power is to transmit the full knowledge of her life from the moment of her death back into the womb. Although infant Moira receives the knowledge, "receiving" is not her power. She has received outside knowledge as a result of a mutant ability she does not have (yet). Comparatively, Prodigy post-Decimation had received outside knowledge as a result of a mutant ability he does not have (anymore).

As for the larger plot, I feel like Moira X's timeline may be the result of her and Xavier selectively removing their own knowledge of Moira's ability throughout the timeline. Like how Xavier erased his own memory of Matthew Malloy. I'm not sure how yet, but I feel like they may try engineering history this way.
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