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Iceman #5

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Cable
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Iceman #5

Post by Cable » 11 Jan 2019, 15:19

The final issue of this Iceman limited series.* What did everyone think?
Spoiler: show
We open with a flashback to a day Bobby went dirt-biking on the beach with Judah and then shared a quiet moment where he opens up about how with the X-Men he chatters all the time to cover up how lonely and sad he often is. Now cut to the present in Sinister's lab, where Essex realizes he has been tricked. Iceman used cameras and sensors Forge gave him to create a golem that would fool Essex. Now the real Iceman attacks, and he actually suggests Sinister wants to create an army because he too is a lonely person. Meanwhile in the city there is a mutant pride parade going on. Forge and Nightcrawler are patrolling for trouble but a group of anti-mutie bigots with image inducers get past them and attack. Fortunately Bishop has Madin and his Morlocks present for extra help and they engage the enemy. Emma Frost is at the event and notes this happening, and her brother Christian wants to do something about it. She is hesitant but ultimately decides it might be good for him. Shade sees them and decides to join the fight too. The melee gets even bigger when Sinister's ice minions break out into the streets. Sinister is still trying to carve up Bobby with a scimitar, but Iceman is turning his body into vapor before the blade can hurt him. He then turns into a giant winged ice-monster and hurtles Essex into the sky. Returning to the parade, Bobby absorbs the Sinister's ice minions to reveal inside them were the missing Morlocks, forced to be Sinister's puppets. Later back at the X-mansion Kitty is mad that Bobby would try to take on Sinister by himself, but he says she had the parade to focus on and he just wanted it to go right for her. She gives him a hug goodnight, but as he goes to sleep we can see outside see the future-self old Ice-Wizard Drake watching him.
*This is the final issue of the volume but clearly segues into the Winter's End one-shot. Which is fortunate because even though Grace knew this was going to be a mini, it seemed like he still didn't get to everything he wanted to. For example I don't know if he did all he wanted to do with Bobby's love life. The scene with Judah at the beginning here seemed oddly forced in. He tries to relate it in his banter with Sinister but that just felt awkward to me. Grace also seems like he wanted to make Shade happen but there is no time for any development and the character comes across as existing just for the sake of a joke ('throwing Shade'). Grace did accomplish some other things though like the Frost story and the growing of Bobby in the utilization of his powers (I remember seeing some salty fans online complain that at the beginning of Grace's first volume Iceman seemed too weak; I think it was always the author's intent to ramp him up to a higher level as his confidence in himself grew). I wasn't the biggest fan of using Sinister because I feel the character has become really diluted recently, but it is a way to highlight Bobby's potential. Overall the mini was a success in some ways and I wish Grace had yet more room to keep going. We shall see what he and Stockman do in the concluding finale.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by InsipidLust » 11 Jan 2019, 16:04

I have to say that while I kind of enjoyed this series and Grace's intent, the art reminded me of Highlights for Kids and—for me at least—really made the story feel a lot thinner than maybe it actually was. I'm not a Stockman fan. He's not a bad artist at all, just not for me I guess.

I look forward to seeing Shade rendered by someone else if possible.

Good to see Emma being heroic again. And Kitty was far less insufferable here than she's been in a while.

I hope we see more of a confident and powerful Bobby in other books.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 11 Jan 2019, 16:12

It is just sad to see that writers use Iceman‘s full potential most of the time only in his solo series. (Yes, except his rebuilding from moisture ability when he was only a head in Havok‘s hands.)

As soon as Bobby is part of a team, ne never really shows what he is able to do.

I mean, he defeated Juggernaut by stopping the time as much as I can remember from last years series.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Cable » 11 Jan 2019, 17:02

InsipidLust wrote:
11 Jan 2019, 16:04
I have to say that while I kind of enjoyed this series and Grace's intent, the art reminded me of Highlights for Kids and—for me at least—really made the story feel a lot thinner than maybe it actually was. I'm not a Stockman fan. He's not a bad artist at all, just not for me I guess.
Stockman's art is not my cup of tea either, but at the same time I feel it has a kind of cartoonish look that helps convey the humor of the series (an aspect of Grace's writing I find very hit or miss; he is better at drama).
Jazzkantine wrote:
11 Jan 2019, 16:12
It is just sad to see that writers use Iceman‘s full potential most of the time only in his solo series. (Yes, except his rebuilding from moisture ability when he was only a head in Havok‘s hands.)

As soon as Bobby is part of a team, ne never really shows what he is able to do.
In all the controversy over whether Bobby Drake should have been revealed to be gay, one of the good parts of it is an excuse for why he never used the degree of power Emma Frost showed he had long ago: he was never comfortable with who he was, and therefore never embraced his potential. These two volumes were about him overcoming that, so he should be a (literally) stronger character going forward if other writers use him.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 11 Jan 2019, 17:38

He needs to go away from the main team and be his own boss or have his own team away from the mansion.

As long as he is subordinated under this estragon... estrogen filled leadership contest, he will never be more than cannonfodder, or wallpaper, or low-light next to every 14 year old promoted X-Kid with spitting powers.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jan 2019, 18:04

Cable wrote:
11 Jan 2019, 17:02
InsipidLust wrote:
11 Jan 2019, 16:04
I have to say that while I kind of enjoyed this series and Grace's intent, the art reminded me of Highlights for Kids and—for me at least—really made the story feel a lot thinner than maybe it actually was. I'm not a Stockman fan. He's not a bad artist at all, just not for me I guess.
Stockman's art is not my cup of tea either, but at the same time I feel it has a kind of cartoonish look that helps convey the humor of the series (an aspect of Grace's writing I find very hit or miss; he is better at drama).
Jazzkantine wrote:
11 Jan 2019, 16:12
It is just sad to see that writers use Iceman‘s full potential most of the time only in his solo series. (Yes, except his rebuilding from moisture ability when he was only a head in Havok‘s hands.)

As soon as Bobby is part of a team, ne never really shows what he is able to do.
In all the controversy over whether Bobby Drake should have been revealed to be gay, one of the good parts of it is an excuse for why he never used the degree of power Emma Frost showed he had long ago: he was never comfortable with who he was, and therefore never embraced his potential. These two volumes were about him overcoming that, so he should be a (literally) stronger character going forward if other writers use him.

I think it’s important to separate Bobby’s seeming weakness in power (which I don’t know if he’s really been treated that weak since his time on Rogue’s team...I mean I still love him killing Vampires cause he was anointed as holy water) and his joker-persona.

On a team, Bobby kinda has to be the funny guy. You can’t have a team full of sour pusses. I mean you can but I prolly wouldn’t read it. Just like in alot of friend groups, somebody is the joker and lively one in group settings. So I don’t want Bobby to lose that. Sure i want there to be depth for him and everything but he still has to be that element of a team book. At least for me...Of course it’s different in a solo book, in that setting it’s a different ballgame and what should be expected out of him.

Now his powers? He definitely should be a Storm or Magneto or a Bishop when he’s on a squad. No doubt about that...
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 11 Jan 2019, 18:20

It was either an Uncanny or RED issue, where Prof, Kitty called for help, and on the viewscreen there were Bishop and Iceman knocked-out on the floor.

Bobby has always been the jokester, but with all that development of his character in the last few years he surely deserves more serious spotlight. He froze a god damn Celestial Death Seed within Daken.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Fenix » 12 Jan 2019, 10:40

While I do enjoy Bobby teaming up with his old pals from the O5/X-Factor and it gives us plenty of shining moments regarding character interactions it does play safe for Bobby and prevent further developments.

I think Emma Frost and Iceman should have a squad, they have a link and contrast that could work amazingly.
Add Polaris, Daken, Havok, Dazzler and Banshee and I can see a book like this going nuts for many reasons.

I have enjoyed this mini as it serves as some closure for the early closed ongoing series, and Im looking forward to see Winters End as it brings back the Future Xmen from Battle of the Atom and I loved them.

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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Quick and Dead » 13 Jan 2019, 00:43

I hate to say it but this was super weak compared to Grace's first run. Major downfalls were the bland art and Mr. Sinister's current credibility as a threat. Also, a bit too many cringe-worthy jokes...

I love that Iceman will continue to get some spotlight in Winter's End but like you guys, I really wish it translated to the main books some more. A one-dimensional jokester who gets roasted by X-23 is not a cute look for Marvel's most prominent LGBT character.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Jan 2019, 04:22

Just because he’s gay doesn’t mean he can’t tell bad jokes and get roasted...he’s not doing something negatively stereotypical. Why can’t he be the funny guy, who has always been? Solo stories almost always do something different with a character than they are in a team dynamic...

If we start down that road (because they are a minority thag can’t “insert thing you don’t like”) then yeah the red-pillers are right lol
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Quick and Dead » 13 Jan 2019, 04:44

I’m not saying he can’t crack jokes with X-23, I’m just saying I want him to do MORE than just crack jokes with X-23.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 13 Jan 2019, 10:38

There is absolutely nothing against Bobby being the jokester guy, but I thought that Grace‘s run and Gold were supposed to make him a bit more mature/seriously, give him more comfidence of being a capable but not perfect leader.

But most of the interaction he has with the other X-Men is when they give him the „Shut up, Wesley“ moment.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by tokenBG1009 » 17 Jan 2019, 08:34

Jazzkantine wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 10:38
There is absolutely nothing against Bobby being the jokester guy, but I thought that Grace‘s run and Gold were supposed to make him a bit more mature/seriously, give him more comfidence of being a capable but not perfect leader.
Why are these two things mutually exclusive? If anything, if being a jokester is who Bobby is, it should reinforce these traits. Why does someone "maturing" mean they lose their sense of humor?
Quick and Dead wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 00:43
I hate to say it but this was super weak compared to Grace's first run. Major downfalls were the bland art and Mr. Sinister's current credibility as a threat. Also, a bit too many cringe-worthy jokes...

I love that Iceman will continue to get some spotlight in Winter's End but like you guys, I really wish it translated to the main books some more. A one-dimensional jokester who gets roasted by X-23 is not a cute look for Marvel's most prominent LGBT character.
Are prominent gay characters supposed to be stalwart, serious, and no-nonsense people? Northstar is already a boring character. Do we really need a second one? No one's above getting roasted. It's happened to pretty much every character.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Blackcyclops » 17 Jan 2019, 12:31

Yeah as one of the Blacks among us, let me just say that I know we’re making progress when Black characters get to be Bishop, Shuri and Miles...
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 17 Jan 2019, 12:36

I never said those things should be mutually exclusive, but I wondered why they first pushed him into this acting leader role, trying to convince him to lead his own team, when a few issues later he is nothing more than a wallpaper jokester who gets hushed every few sentences.

It’s like the writers had something coming up for him but turned away from that again.

Nothing against a funny leader, not at all. I happen to be one too from time to time. I have to, or else I would puke most of the day.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by tokenBG1009 » 17 Jan 2019, 14:01

Blackcyclops wrote:
17 Jan 2019, 12:31
Yeah as one of the Blacks among us, let me just say that I know we’re making progress when Black characters get to be Bishop, Shuri and Miles...
Weirdly, I think a key thing in representation being normalized is when a group gets to be evil/villainous without being a stereotype. That's when they're around so long that people just feel comfortable with them being bad. Bishop was a good example of this.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by InsipidLust » 17 Jan 2019, 16:23

Usually I’m disagreeing with Jazzkantine but just this once I’m going to point out that they don’t appear to be arguing that Iceman should be stalwart or that he should under go a big, serious personality change. Jazzkantine appears to be arguing that it’s strange to see Bobby be a fully realized character in his own book that has come into himself and become more than a one-liner machine with little else to contribute to the team.

And I think that history kind of shows that Jazz is largely right. When was the last time that adult Bobby got to be something more interesting than that in a team book? Liu’s Astonishing run (weirdly bitter phase for Bobby) and Carey’s run come to mind. The character has made some progress recently and I don’t think it’s unressonable for readers to want him to have more to say and do elsewhere... which is NOT at all saying that he has to become a sourpuss or that being funny makes him a bad leader.

I, for one, am glad that Bobby is out of his resentful/bitter funny guy phase that he was in in the books for quite a while. What now? How does a newly confident Bobby more at peace with himself begin to assert himself in team settings and contribute beyond zipping around on ice slides and cracking jokes?

I know that this is not the only time that the people arguing this precise point in this thread has happened but I’m lending my voice too because it seems like that very specific point has been glossed over several times. Bobby being funny isn’t the problem. Bobby being jokey wallpaper is. It’s just like when Psylocke wasn’t doing anything but appearing to contribute a butt shot and say “as you wish”.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 17 Jan 2019, 17:04

I really liked Liu's run and the more grounded storytelling she did. The team felt really like a little family. And I like Care, although I couldn't stand the art of Bachalo and Ramos. Both writers gave Bobby darker moments, like when Bobby was infused with the Death Seed, or the whole Mystique debacle (I could have lived without).

It just came to my mind, that it often feels like that team-book writers try and push him on top, but then they run out of fuel and he is back on the ground again.
But as soon as he is in his solo series, he takes on Juggernaut, Daken, Mr. Sinister all by himself.

Boby needs either a really capable leader who appreciates what Bobby can do, or he needs to get out of the mansion, maybe with small team who respect his leadership and personality.

And maybe, that is now very far-fetched, it would be inspirering to have a prominent LGBTQ character in a leading role in a Marvel comic.
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Jazzkantine » 17 Jan 2019, 17:05

@InsipidLust: One day, we will become friends, you will see :D
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Re: Iceman #5

Post by Quick and Dead » 17 Jan 2019, 18:08

tokenBG1009 wrote:
17 Jan 2019, 08:34
Jazzkantine wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 10:38
There is absolutely nothing against Bobby being the jokester guy, but I thought that Grace‘s run and Gold were supposed to make him a bit more mature/seriously, give him more comfidence of being a capable but not perfect leader.
Why are these two things mutually exclusive? If anything, if being a jokester is who Bobby is, it should reinforce these traits. Why does someone "maturing" mean they lose their sense of humor?
Quick and Dead wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 00:43
I hate to say it but this was super weak compared to Grace's first run. Major downfalls were the bland art and Mr. Sinister's current credibility as a threat. Also, a bit too many cringe-worthy jokes...

I love that Iceman will continue to get some spotlight in Winter's End but like you guys, I really wish it translated to the main books some more. A one-dimensional jokester who gets roasted by X-23 is not a cute look for Marvel's most prominent LGBT character.
Are prominent gay characters supposed to be stalwart, serious, and no-nonsense people? Northstar is already a boring character. Do we really need a second one? No one's above getting roasted. It's happened to pretty much every character.
Once again... No one is calling for a change in Bobby’s personality nor did anyone say they want him to stop being funny. Simply wish he had a bigger part in books other than his own because right now, the only thing he’s seen doing in other books is crack jokes in the background.
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