Sins of Sinister #1

[Flapflop]

This is AmaSinistering

How did Sinister do it? Like some stated in the thread of last Immortal issue

Spoiler: show

Sinister putted some of his own DNA in all DNA samples so by each resurrection (not totally sure for how long already) the X-men were already infected with Sinister, he just can take them over when needed. That's why he needed the council members killed, to make them Sinisters. And by now giving the X-gene to everyone in the world, Sinisters rules and is released. He also used the Moira clones already a couple of times to fine tune this plan.

Who can stop him?

Spoiler: show

Storm has never been resurrected yet since Sinister started putting his DNA in the samples, and her mind is protected by Arakkao. Also Mystique and Destiny are not infected somehow. They also probably found out of his lab of Moiras so Sinister is now trapped in the last version of his plan. Also his own Sinister are getting more individually and not totally in the collective anymore.

Time will tell how this will unfold.

I get indeed AoA vibes from this but also its something totally new and eXiting.

Though they probably can't go back to the old Krakoan status quo after this so definitely a new era is coming.

[Blackcyclops]

It’s important to note, before some people run in here with misinformation, Sinister specifically says he can’t affect anyone until he killed and affected Hope. So all resurrections prior to the death of Hope were normal…I REPEAT THEY WERE NORMAL.

Also, I’m now confused about the Moira situation. At first, I thought Sinister had just used the Moira-Engine post aJudgement Day and they had a limit on their use. But it seems like he’s gone through sets of Moira-resets. Like he says “Than most first Moira runs”. Like what does that mean?


Still my absolute two favorite things of the entire issue are: 1) how our expectations are completely subverted. The book starts and almost ends in a way where you think “Mr. Sinister is going to be the big bad, the Apocalypse of his own Age of Apocalypse” but instead the true big bad (for now) are essentially Sinisterized versions of the QC. Just like in AoA, the alternate telling of some characters ended up being villains and they posed a great threat to the heroes winning.

2) Sinister ends up being the Bishop of the story. I guarantee NO one saw that coming lol. Until those last three pages, nobody thought “Oh Sinister has to fix time” lmaooo.

Bravo Gillen. Bravo.

[Blackcyclops]

Also, I appreciate that even with this story, the larger Krakoan Age threat is still real the overall BIG bad: The Dominion. I just really love how even when we think the story isn’t about Hickman’s central conflict, it still is. They still are the baddies we see at the end of this all.

[Flapflop]

It’s important to note, before some people run in here with misinformation, Sinister specifically says he can’t affect anyone until he killed and affected Hope. So all resurrections prior to the death of Hope were normal…I REPEAT THEY WERE NORMAL.

Thanks i oversaw or at least didn had that conclusion in my first read that that specific ingrediënt was needed to start his plan. Makes sense now why Mytique and Destiny aren't affected. They run away at the right time because Destiny foresaw it all.

Also, I’m now confused about the Moira situation. At first, I thought Sinister had just used the Moira-Engine post aJudgement Day and they had a limit on their use. But it seems like he’s gone through sets of Moira-resets. Like he says “Than most first Moira runs”. Like what does that mean?

I think even after Sinister took over the X-men he still had to reset the timeline couple of times to adjust.

1) how our expectations are completely subverted. The book starts and almost ends in a way where you think “Mr. Sinister is going to be the big bad, the Apocalypse of his own Age of Apocalypse” but instead the true big bad (for now) are essentially Sinisterized versions of the QC. Just like in AoA, the alternate telling of some characters ended up being villains and they posed a great threat to the heroes winning.

2) Sinister ends up being the Bishop of the story. I guarantee NO one saw that coming lol. Until those last three pages, nobody thought “Oh Sinister has to fix time” lmaooo.

Sinister is indeed usurped by his own creations. Sinister now has to work together with Storm, Destiny and Mystique. Brings another meaning to Destiny words we can only win if we are on the same side (so wíth the original Sinister).

[Tessa1984]

Though they probably can't go back to the old Krakoan status quo after this so definitely a new era is coming.

I'm interested to see where this is heading in that regard. Resurrection protocols could still function properly if Hope wasn't all Sinister'd.

[Tessa1984]

Also, I’m now confused about the Moira situation. At first, I thought Sinister had just used the Moira-Engine post aJudgement Day and they had a limit on their use. But it seems like he’s gone through sets of Moira-resets. Like he says “Than most first Moira runs”. Like what does that mean?

This is the first iteration (life) of Moira VII, who Sinister can use up to 10 times to reset the timeline. Like he said in Immortal #10, "First iteration. Let's see what I can discover." As in, he has yet to upload any data to that Moira -- this clone has yet to die and be returned to that new save point he created.

[Blackcyclops]

Huh? But how does that fit with what he said this issue? And wouldn’t it be Moira X (VII) more accurately?

[Tessa1984]

Huh? But how does that fit with what he said this issue? And wouldn’t it be Moira X (VII) more accurately?

It would actually haha. This is a clone of Moira X, and it's the 7th clone/save point apparently. So Moira 10.7. This being the first iteration, It's Moira 10.7.1.

My one gripe with this otherwise fantastic issue was Storm tolerating, in 5 years, the assassination of Thanos, the assassination of Doom, war with the Eternals, the assassination of the Fantastic Four, etc. I suppose I can see her in favor of taking out the Avengers after Cap kills the U.S. President lol, but otherwise...

[Blackcyclops]

Sorry, I got like really confused by that page so I wzs just flustered. I apologize if my post sounded harsh. I was mad I got confused after following along for so long lol

[Blackcyclops]

Well we have to assume that with the darker aspects Storm didn’t know. Which makes sense to me

[Cable]

Obviously Gillen didn't intend any of it but I was still disturbed by how much this issue fits into far right conspiracy theory talking points. It suggests a medical cure is being offered to people that actually corrupts them, that the political process is taken over by a shadowy cabal in part through the use of body doubles, that major media figures are in on it, that those like Foggy who spout this conspiracy are treated as crazy, that reactionary groups like Orchis are actually fighting this real secret threat but are defamed with false-flag attacks, etc. I know I am reading too much into this but once I started seeing it this way I couldn't help but see so many echoes of it. Fortunately right-wingers are only able to interpret comics as 'woke' and so would never pick up any of these interpretations themselves...

For the actual story there is parts I like and parts I don't. I have never been as high on Gillen's run overall as others, partly due to him doubling down on some of the dumbest HoX/PoX ideas like Moira's resets. But I do like that this issue properly shows the X-Men can beat the rest of the MU if they really want to And as BC said, Sinister turning out to be the one that needs to undo it all is a great twist at the end.

It's too bad we aren't getting any non-X titles crossing over or doing one-shots.

[Blackcyclops]

Oh shit,,,

[Jindianajonz]

This is the first iteration (life) of Moira VII, who Sinister can use up to 10 times to reset the timeline. Like he said in Immortal #10, "First iteration. Let's see what I can discover." As in, he has yet to upload any data to that Moira -- this clone has yet to die and be returned to that new save point he created.

Where was it stated that each Sinister clone can only be used 10 times? I know "real" Moira was told she'd only get 10 ressurections, or 11 if she plays things right, but I didn't think that was a physical limitation that would apply to her clones.

[Blackcyclops]

This is the first iteration (life) of Moira VII, who Sinister can use up to 10 times to reset the timeline. Like he said in Immortal #10, "First iteration. Let's see what I can discover." As in, he has yet to upload any data to that Moira -- this clone has yet to die and be returned to that new save point he created.

Where was it stated that each Sinister clone can only be used 10 times? I know "real" Moira was told she'd only get 10 ressurections, or 11 if she plays things right, but I didn't think that was a physical limitation that would apply to her clones.

Didn’t Sinister explicitly say the Moira clones had limits in an earlier Immortal issue?

Edit:
I just looked back over earlier issues of Immortal and some thoughts:
1)we saw in the Destiny issue and now confirmed here that the thing that ended all those timelines she saw was Sinister basically using his Moira Engine.
2) So Sinister had experienced Judgement Day before and seemed to have not passed it until the current timeline. Then later we see how he really doesn’t want to experience it AGAIN. Best reason might be because the Celestial can turn off his engine.
3) In that Destiny’s past issue makes alot more sense now. The parallel between Sinister saying they need to team up and Destiny saying it is evident now. Also, it fully shows that Sinister has been battling the machines from jump.
4) Sinister specifically says a clone has 10 resets in them. And this currently timeline is on Moira 10.6 not Moira 10.7.
5) So in #9, we see that when Sinister first tries to kill Hope he is explicitly told this is his first time doing this because there is nothing to download from the Moira-Engine. So that means there are possibly instances of resets (from Sinister acquiring the Moira DNA to that moment) but this was his first time on this path. Thus after 9 times he finally succeeds. So the life we are on is Moira 10.6.10.

[Flapflop]

Marvel needs to give us a graph, even for fun, of all the diffrent Moira-reset attempts by Sinister and why they failed

UPDATE
Marvel reveals some easter eggs and callbacks: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/ ... -callbacks

[norwichchris]

Just read it a second time, I get AOA vibes all over so much we even saw Sugar Man attacking. I really do hope we get to see graphics novels and one shots detailing further everything we see in this issue.

The real question is will they reset the timeline to stop Sinister plan or continue with history as it is? I'm sure they can find a way to purge the Sinister virus from everyone.

[Blackcyclops]

Well we know there are no one-shots or minis, just the 3 series changing titles.

[norwichchris]

Well we know there are no one-shots or minis, just the 3 series changing titles.

Oh ok, bad choice I think would like to have seen more stories based around the age of Sinister (AOS) I wonder if actually Destiny stole Sinisters Labs with Mystique?

[das_boot]

So, this was fun and all…

But I honestly don’t know how I feel about it beyond that. The art was pretty, the writing clicked… I dunno. I think I might be on event burn out and I’m saying this as a huge Gillen fan.

[Blackcyclops]

Cable, the more I think about it the more I wouldn't mind a one-shot or two about a Doom led Orchis or just seeing the final day of the F4 because that was effing brutal.

[Blackcyclops]

I ask this genuinely: what does it actually mean in relationship to a story like this to say “event burn out”?

I mean is it the fact that events in this story directly affect events in two other books (X-Men Red and Way of X)? Like if Gillen told the exact same story in Immortal X-Men and just published it weekly to have the same amount of issues, would your feelings on this freshly starting story change?

It can’t be the scale of the story right? I mean there are plenty of examples of “big” stories that aren’t billed as events. Matter of fact every story in some way alters the status quo of the larger narrative. And when they do the first critique is “nothing happened”.

Is it the fanfare and promotion around the story? That I can get behind but as someone who’s started working in mRketing, I get it.

I’m just asking because it’s a statement that confounds me because I’m just never sure what in particular it’s talking about.

For this story, so far, the only real difference between it and another big story like say Spurrier’s Way of X epic (which is about almost as large in scale but just doesn’t crossover to let other writers contribute) is that it has direct input from other writers. Otherwise, it’s not really any different in terms of scale or paying off older plot threads. Hell, the one benefit of this story is that Gillen does allow two other top-tier writers to contribute.

Idk, maybe I’m biased because as Cable pointed out: Sinister has to be the hero of the story and that is just hilarious to me. But I understand if 1)you hate HoX/PoX Era, 2) Dislike the Moira X aspect, 3) don’t like Gillen’s writing, or 4) just dislike a story like this and the focus on Sinister and that’s why you don’t like this story, though.

[Magnus]

This was a decent intro to the event; I agree that the instant twist to Sinister being the one who has to help solve is nice. It did feel a bit disjointed though, and I'm already a bit wary as it reminds me of something I thought was a weak point in Judgment Day, and that it feels a bit like an outline that hasn't been completely fleshed out. Obviously some of that is by design since we're zooming through 10 years in 40-some pages, with a lot of one-off events. But it did feel a bit off to go from all the narrated/described historical points to Storm's escape in year 5 being framed normally, for example.

As usual there were definitely some standout moments, though. We already got the payoff for Magneto's decision to give up resurrection, I'm guessing this is Storm's. The page with Juggernaut getting turned into a temporal bullet to kill Thanos was so hilarious I sent it to a bunch of my non-comic-reading friends. Also "this isn't the 90s" and "no more Wanda, just in case."

Obviously Gillen didn't intend any of it but I was still disturbed by how much this issue fits into far right conspiracy theory talking points. It suggests a medical cure is being offered to people that actually corrupts them, that the political process is taken over by a shadowy cabal in part through the use of body doubles, that major media figures are in on it, that those like Foggy who spout this conspiracy are treated as crazy, that reactionary groups like Orchis are actually fighting this real secret threat but are defamed with false-flag attacks, etc. I know I am reading too much into this but once I started seeing it this way I couldn't help but see so many echoes of it. Fortunately right-wingers are only able to interpret comics as 'woke' and so would never pick up any of these interpretations themselves...

Yeah I think you're reading too much into it, they're only "far right conspiracy talking points" because they're every conspiracy talking points. Politics being run by a shadowy cabal, with the media in on it, is pretty much a requirement. False flag attacks, people knowing the truth being crazies, part and parcel. Even the poisoned medical cure is pretty old hat (the fluoride in the water is to control you!!).

My one gripe with this otherwise fantastic issue was Storm tolerating, in 5 years, the assassination of Thanos, the assassination of Doom, war with the Eternals, the assassination of the Fantastic Four, etc. I suppose I can see her in favor of taking out the Avengers after Cap kills the U.S. President lol, but otherwise...

I also thought that was a bit of a stretch, but I'm guessing it's probably a combination of things she'd be fine with, and others she's kept in the dark about. Pre-emptively killing Thanos, I could see her on board with. And being in favor of another war with the Eternals if she thought they struck first again. The Doom assassination she might not be aware of, and the F4 thing might just look like a weird accident.

[Magnus]

Cable, the more I think about it the more I wouldn't mind a one-shot or two about a Doom led Orchis or just seeing the final day of the F4 because that was effing brutal.

I'd be surprised if we didn't see Doom-led Orchis show up in at least one of the three titles, though it may only be for an issue since they seem to all be one issue in Year 10, one in Year 100, one in Year 1000. (The "Doombot" is totally just Doom himself, right?)

Also, along the lines of scenes we need, I want to know what Jean thinks of the Cyclops/Wolverine chimera... lol

[das_boot]

I ask this genuinely: what does it actually mean in relationship to a story like this to say “event burn out”?

I mean is it the fact that events in this story directly affect events in two other books (X-Men Red and Way of X)? Like if Gillen told the exact same story in Immortal X-Men and just published it weekly to have the same amount of issues, would your feelings on this freshly starting story change?

Actually, yes. Immortal X-Men, Legion of X and X-Men Red aren’t even a year old, and in that time they’ve been pulled in to two crossover events. I love Gillen as a writer; ditto Spurrier and Ewing. They’re doing amazing work. While I feel Red has hit an authentic spot where it can pause and tell this story before continuing, I’m not certain that I’d say the same for Legion. It feels like a rather disjointed break. The disjointed story-telling has been one of my biggest critiques of X-Force as I’m sure you recall, and while I take the very subtle nudge that I’m maybe over-reacting to the first issue of a (as I said, well-written and drawn) event, I don’t think it’s necessarily unfair for me to say I’m having event burn out. Lest we forget, it’s January 2023– and we’ve already had Dark Web and now this event that have fallen in this calendar year— and AXE wasn’t too long ago either. That’s three events within… what? Three months of one another? All of which have created important beats within the ongoing Krakoan era. My dude, by anyone’s standards, that’s a LOT.

It can’t be the scale of the story right? I mean there are plenty of examples of “big” stories that aren’t billed as events. Matter of fact every story in some way alters the status quo of the larger narrative. And when they do the first critique is “nothing happened”.

I actually think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. I honestly feel like the entire Krakoan era has felt like one long event. Some of it has been absolutely amazing, but it really does feel, to me, like we’re in the downward spiral of a several years long event. While I’m still reading the majority of the books, I just don’t feel like the quality is necessarily consistent any more to me. Add to this that it’s three of the books that I think have remained consistently good or higher in the last year, and I’m definitely back to the “was this necessarily the point in the narrative to take a three month hiatus from the main story?” point.

Is it the fanfare and promotion around the story? That I can get behind but as someone who’s started working in mRketing, I get it.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

I’m just asking because it’s a statement that confounds me because I’m just never sure what in particular it’s talking about.

For this story, so far, the only real difference between it and another big story like say Spurrier’s Way of X epic (which is about almost as large in scale but just doesn’t crossover to let other writers contribute) is that it has direct input from other writers. Otherwise, it’s not really any different in terms of scale or paying off older plot threads. Hell, the one benefit of this story is that Gillen does allow two other top-tier writers to contribute.

I feel like I’ve already addressed these points.

Idk, maybe I’m biased because as Cable pointed out: Sinister has to be the hero of the story and that is just hilarious to me. But I understand if 1)you hate HoX/PoX Era, 2) Dislike the Moira X aspect, 3) don’t like Gillen’s writing, or 4) just dislike a story like this and the focus on Sinister and that’s why you don’t like this story, though.

1 I don’t hate this era but I do think that the quality across the franchise has taken a dip since Inferno and Ayala’s departure.

2. I think that’s actually quite clever and as a gamer, love the concept of a “save point” in “reality”.

3. I love Gillen’s work as covered previously

4. I like this version of Sinister. I like that his sneakiness is coming to bite him in the arse. I like that despite him thinking he’s the cleverest person in any room, he’s still a victim of his hubris here. Like I said, I like the writing and the art. On paper I feel like this event should be one that I absolutely love.

And yet…

I was intentionally and specifically vague in my response to this. It’s well written and drawn and seeds some interesting ideas. I just really don’t know why I’m so “meh” about it and the only thing I can think that would explain it is that I went in to this issue gearing myself up mentally for “another” event. I get that it’s a me thing, and I get that the “another” is absolutely my own emphasis, but like… dude come on it’s been a LOT

[Flapflop]

Its true for the last couple of years Marvel is event/crossover hopping a lot (marketed always as universe shattering). And almost with each event also titles are coming and going.

Titles that are getting more then a year or 12 issues to shine before canceling or relaunch as a new #1 are fewer then 5 or 10 years ago.

And indeed after Hickman left not everything is golden anymore at the X-office and the direction they went isn't always what we expected from the story beats Hickman started (and especially Percy gave us a total diffrent Moira)

Gillen and Ewing are top notch though, most of the times at least. Judgment Day fell a little flat in the end in my book, but that was also under the influence of Jason Aaron's Avengers and much more Eternal then X-based. Sins of Sinister is 100% X-office.