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Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Oct 2019, 15:52

Majestic wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 15:13
At first, I thought that Moira's efforts to disabuse Charles and Erik of their dreams would also temper their hubris. I should've realized the new problem: the very nature of Moira's approach tells these two already very arrogant men, "You are so important." Is it any wonder that—once they think the proverbial ship has been righted—they conclude that:
Jonathan Hickman wrote:It is time for you to step aside, and let us do the good work for which we were created.
That they acknowledge being created by Moira is of little to no comfort; it's still all very, "Thanks honey, we'll take it from here."

Not that a version of all this in which Moira is explicitly in charge seems like it would be much better. Aside from the logistical concerns of exposing her and her power set (which Powers of X has certainly illustrated well), there's the matter of Moira's own desire for control. What would she do if the commandment of "Make More Mutants" resulted in another precog on Krakoa, I wonder? How far would she go to protect her place behind the throne?

Moira, as presented here, does seem more self-aware than either Charles or Erik. But generally speaking, that's not particularly difficult for someone will only a fraction of one lifetime of experience; Erik has always been short-sighted, Charles has always (or at least for decades of real-world time) been a hypocrite. But still, it's far easier to write "I'm just as bad as they are" in a journal than it is to take steps to remedy it.
Spoiler: show
So easy, in fact, that she wrote it twice. As with Mystique's place on the council a couple issues back, there is some text that can be read through the redactions here. In Entry 35 - RE: Xavier, the final line begins, "I am just as bad as th".
I don't mean to suggest that Moira's power-hungry. At least, not for its own sake. I mean to say that she's afraid of losing control to the hubris of others, and she's right to be. That's why Charles and Erik only get one peek inside her head apiece; any more, and one or both of them would probably have decided they knew what was best and cut her out of the loop completely well before now.

What's more, Destiny started a clock ticking in Moira's head, and by now, in life X, the sound of it must be nearly deafening. As far as she's concerned, there may not be another chance to get it right, and her chosen partners are still—still!—going against the most experienced voice in the room. I'd probably be gripping my memories—my leverage—tightly with both hands, too.
It does kinda form this idea that maybe mutantkind’s weakness is these two (really 3, we shouldn’t forget Apoccy) men and their hubris.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 09 Oct 2019, 15:59

Personal opinion incoming:

The more I read, the less interested I am in this new status quo of the X-Men. Cloning 24/7, old costumes, the absence of the non-mutant X-Men, sect behavior...

I am more into the things Hickmann added into or changed about established content. Would have loved it to learn more about Orchid, Mother Mold, the changes done to Damage Control..

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by SW442 » 09 Oct 2019, 16:11

Interesting issue. I did like the twist that mutants weren't dominant like we thought, but were actually the ones in the reserve.

Destiny may be back, but to keep things compromised, looks like Magneto & Xavier on gonna string Mystique along as long as possible. I see her killing Moira again at the end of Hickman's X-tenure. Not only as a reset, but because of her refusal to bring Destiny back to her sooner. Or, should Destiny come back, Moira may kill her this time around, igniting Mystique's wrath.

Magneto & Xavier are on the clock. The latter warns the former he's liable to provoke humanity, and we see that with his God Complex in HOX 1. So I can see him inadvertently contributing to another schism. Eventually unity will split and many of the mutants will be divided up -probably Apocalypse vs. Magneto vs. Xavier.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by das_boot » 09 Oct 2019, 16:14

You know what...
Spoiler: show
i was right about Moira’s deaths eliminating a time line and i’d quite like some applause for that since most of y’all were all “LOL NO STUPID DAS_BOOT THATS NOT WHAT WAS SAID”.

You’re welcome.
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SW442
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by SW442 » 09 Oct 2019, 16:15

UrbanExplorer wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 15:59
Personal opinion incoming:

The more I read, the less interested I am in this new status quo of the X-Men. Cloning 24/7, old costumes, the absence of the non-mutant X-Men, sect behavior...

I am more into the things Hickmann added into or changed about established content. Would have loved it to learn more about Orchid, Mother Mold, the changes done to Damage Control..
Nothing has really grabbed me yet either. I don't blame it on Hickman. I just have limited taste, so with most stories, I am normally invested in certain parts and characters. And Hickman isn't known for deep character work, in addition to not doing much with the characters I do love. Besides cameos, small parts, and character scapegoating. lol

But this was still only the set up, and hopefully the DoX writers will do more character work where Hickman isn't. But I am waiting on Wave II, which will hopefully have at least one book that really peaks my interest. So far, only X-Men is and that's due to it having a rotating cast.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Majestic » 09 Oct 2019, 16:25

Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 15:52
It does kinda form this idea that maybe mutantkind’s weakness is these two (really 3, we shouldn’t forget Apoccy) men and their hubris.
I had actually thought that Xavier had gotten past this, having seen the flaw pretty much reach its apotheosis with Magneto in Morrison's "Planet X":
Grant Morrison wrote:Magneto had become a legend in death, an inspiration for change. Now look at you—just another foolish and self-important old man, with outdated thoughts in his head. You have nothing this new generation of mutants wants… except for your face on a t-shirt.
Of course, given that this was retconned immediately by Marvel through Claremont and Austen, and so Xavier was not really confronting a fate that had befallen a close friend and could easily befall him; the lesson was rendered largely null and void, on account of there being no emotional connection to make it stick to Charles.

But the quote brings up another issue: "Planet X" highlighted the necessity of the old clearing out to make way for the new; that is how culture—and consequently, society at large—evolve. Entrenched powers can combat this transition, but in the end, mortality has the last word. Or at least, it does in a world where we can't just clone new bodies, upload a backup of the dead into them, and carry on, as self-important and outdated as ever.

Make no mistake: this is not a Hickman problem. This is a Marvel problem. This is a superhero comics problem. Any dead character could already be brought back, if a story—or flagging sales numbers—demanded it. Hell, Jordan White has already decided that the X-Men don't age anyway, and as editors go I get the sense that he's the rule, not the exception. In a way, all Hickman has done is make the subtext into text.

I recall reading somewhere (take it with a grain of salt, of course) that Hickman's got about two years of X-Men stories planned. If this really is a story about the hubris of the original generation of mutant leadership being insurmountable, then I'd expect Marvel to retcon it as soon as they think they can make it hang together a little better than Xorn. I, for one, would find it disheartening for history to repeat itself in that way; for that theme to be destroyed in yet another story by what Morrison called franchise comics' "rigid elasticity".
Last edited by Majestic on 09 Oct 2019, 16:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Fenix » 09 Oct 2019, 16:32

This issue brings up several interesting questions on regards of the immediate future:

- Is Moira going to be dissident amongst the mutants? Since Xavier CANT read her and there is no way to control her, they can only hope she stays safe and hidden, a role that she is less than happy to have. Is Moira going to gather a team to work in the shadows or act in case "Xavineto" goes too far?
This issue certainly opens a door for such a plot to move forward.

- Is Moira really resetting the timeline or we are made to believe that? This issues certainly wants us to buy the idea that Moira is this powerful, but it would go against anything we have seen in Marvel Comics, there is no way she would be "invisible" for people with cosmic awareness and other entities with godlike powers (like the recent Doom in Secret Wars).
I still think she is creating branching realities and her knowledge makes her believe that (so she is making everybody else believe it as well) but that knowledge is LIMITED. Moira doesnt have any cosmic awareness or any means to learn beyond her own mortal life. She is in no position to have this kind of knowledge and taking it for granted as the only truth is exactly what Hickman wants us to do but we shouldnt.

- What are Magneto and Xavier real target? It looks like they just put the plan in motion but the very extent of this plan remains unknown. There are hints all over the place telling us there is much more going on that we really know, yet.
Does the end justify the means? We already have this conversation many times during different runs, It is not a simple question but I would say that being a hero pretty much consist of the end doesnt justify the means, the means matter and thats what differences a hero from a villain or any antihero.
The X-Men has been, mostly, heroes. They have tried that motto before arguing they were close to extintion and they needed to survive and most of the core X-Men had several second thoughts and remorses about these kind of actions, even Cyclops disagreed with many of the decisions he took following this attitude.
Are the X-men going to be pushed (telepathically) to carry on and follow any orders without thinking too much? Or are they just becoming fanatists following any commands like soul-less soldiers?

- What is the TRUTH Xavier and Magneto talks about? The truth about Moira and the possible futures? The truth about their plans?

- What is the real deal with precogs in Krakoa? Wouldnt they be useful to the cause in ways that Moira is not relevant (anymore)?
Blindfold recently died.
Legion, as some of you mentioned, has probably any psychic power you can imagine (and some others that are not even psychic, but purely physical) probably including precognition. He didnt die at the final battle with Xman and I dont remember that he stayed in the AoX world... what happened to him? Is he held captive as Sabretooth?
And Psylocke (Betsy)? She used to have precog dreams...
Or Negasonic Teenage Warhead, Im not very sure if she is alive or dead again, but she used to be precog as well.

Most of my previous post questions remain unanswered as well. If Sinister can clone himself to boredom and Xavier is cloning himself to feed Proteus then I could perfectly see Xavier creating several clones to work as the Stepford Cuckoos and help him carry on back ups, keeping Krakoa "under control" and other convenient tasks.
Also we know those back ups can be "edited" and altered so it is becoming more and more obvious they would do these kind of stuff as "the end justifies the means" so rewriting friends and enemies looks increasingly more possible and convenient, and this would explain many things later on.

Also, what happened with Cassandra Nova? Jean defeated her in X-Men Red and later she was apprehended by Callahan and his men, so she is meant to be around, same goes for other still to be seen wildcards like Maddy.

Im looking forward to see how the general plot moves forward, I really want to read all the new books but I cant stop feeling like the central idea/plot is going to be sidelined while other plots move and Im not sure if I can keep my attention on these plots while the big one is still so huge and not solved.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Around The Fur » 09 Oct 2019, 16:36

I still really want to see how Xavier and Magneto sold their plan to the X-Men, especially now that it is known that they don’t know of Moria’s existence/influence. It might explain why we haven’t seen characters like Rogue, Gambit or Kitty who might have a problem with the new status quo.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by das_boot » 09 Oct 2019, 17:19

@Fenix— a character LITERALLY stated this issue that Moira’s death would erase that timeline
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Quick and Dead » 09 Oct 2019, 17:32

Oh, wow. If a certain retcon is undone, Magneto also has a mutant kid with reality-warping powers. That's the entire trio. Granted, Wanda was born well before Charles and Moira recruited Magneto but still, that's a wild coincidence that I can't believe never occurred to me before.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by MartijnB » 09 Oct 2019, 17:34

so... I don't like the implications of this issue at all

Still a fan of Hickman´s epic style, still loving this direction, but this issue creates... issues...

I actually like my hypothesis that she just created a new timeline with each use of her powers, one with the same starting condition as the last, it'd still be her starting over, just without the, well, universal apocalypse.

2 things...

1 - Surely there have been Marvel events that involved mass casualties that were later undone? During Infinity War for one, there's a 50% chance she died, guess the universe lucked out there.

2 - ... just, effectively every time Moira died was genocide. And then some. And during the times when the killer knew of Moira's nature, it was effectively suicide too. Take Pyro. I assume Pyro's younger than Moira, by killing Moira he ended his whole reality and reset it to a time before he was even born. And if it really resets the whole universe, these events end countless alien civilizations too...

What I am HOPING, truly, is that the Librarian isn't sure himself how Moira's powers work, and just wants to be safe rather than sorry. He is merely going by this hypothesis for the sake of risk management. Lets face it, for all his intelligence, his entire frame of reference is within a single life of Moira, he has never seen her powers in action.

It is awesome to realize Wolverine and Moira and their zoo already appeared in Power of X 1 in hindsight, nice.

It is... interesting to see that Krakoa discriminates against certain powersets. All mutants, except precogs. They have their reasons, but this is discrimination all the same which of course is very painful to see from Charles effing Xavier of all people.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Oct 2019, 17:39

@Majestic: I don’t know why or how you keep reading if your views are based and situated as they are but I guess that’s a very separate thread lol

@Fenix:
Some of that is answered in the comic.

Like the secret is that “they always lose”...
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Nu-D » 09 Oct 2019, 17:42

Around The Fur wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 16:36
I still really want to see how Xavier and Magneto sold their plan to the X-Men, especially now that it is known that they don’t know of Moria’s existence/influence. It might explain why we haven’t seen characters like Rogue, Gambit or Kitty who might have a problem with the new status quo.
Yes, this. I’m also looking forward to what the new status quo means to the characters as people. So far, it’s still just set up. Now we hit “go” and see what the characters think and do with all this newness.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Quick and Dead » 09 Oct 2019, 17:49

To be fair, we haven't seen Charles forbid any precogs to live on Krakoa. They just aren't resurrecting any. Besides Destiny, Qwerty, and Blindfold, who are all dead, else do we have? Straight precogs only. Every telepath gets a precog dream every now and then, that doesn't count.

Also, not trying to be rude... But why do some of you care so much whether or Moira creates alternate timelines or not? Hickman has made it abundantly clear in this issue that for the sake of this story, timelines cease to exist when Moira dies. Case closed. If future writers wish to revisit any of the lives we saw, which I'm sure they will, they'll find a way to do so with a retcon. But for now, we have our answer... No reason to debate it in every single thread anymore.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Majestic » 09 Oct 2019, 17:53

Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 17:39
@Majestic: I don’t know why or how you keep reading if your views are based and situated as they are but I guess that’s a very separate thread lol
I can appreciate and enjoy what sort of lemonade subsequent writers make with the lemons they're given by editorial and bemoan the way editorial policy undermines certain stories. Those aren't mutually exclusive stances, nor does acknowledging a systemic flaw in franchise comics mean that I'm not a fan of them.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 09 Oct 2019, 18:01

Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 11:28
I’m just shocked that a guy who was so into cosmic hierarchy would really give Moira a power that isn’t reality jumping OR even time travel like people believed but is actually reality reset...that’s something that in his Avengers title would have 100% brought the attention of some cosmic entities. And I don’t like it...really don’t.

Now that said: My favorite thing (besides this very stern and levelheaded Moira) was that not only the potential for the Phalanx as the big bad of this run (the Builders or Beyonders of this story) but the reveal of the true conflict of this story. I mistakenly theorized it was mutant/man vs human but the real core issue is natural vs artificial or natural evolution vs artificial evolution. That the crux of this is mutantkind trying to stave off the possible true successors of the world: technology...it isn’t something as simple as ignorance and hatred like has been the idea behind the first 50 years of the X-Men. No, Hickman is postulating that mutant’s existential threat is obsolescence because of artificial evolution. This is still a story about survival but it’s more implicit and hidden than Decimation. This is interesting and I wonder how going forward if Hickman will revisit it directly or if the Dominion will appear in the present like the Builders or will be like the Beyonders and more of a “looming” threat.
This. It also explains why non-organical technologies are outlawed in Krakoa.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Oct 2019, 18:39

I can’t speak for Fenix or Martin (who appears was just concerned because he’s one of those multiversial thinkers lol, he did that alot in Avengers) but I only brought it up in the beginning since it was addressed in the book and just expected something from Hickman. I’m sorry for bringing it up.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by MultipleMadrox » 09 Oct 2019, 18:47

Fenix wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 16:32
- Is Moira going to be dissident amongst the mutants? Since Xavier CANT read her and there is no way to control her, they can only hope she stays safe and hidden, a role that she is less than happy to have. Is Moira going to gather a team to work in the shadows or act in case "Xavineto" goes too far?
I feel like if Moira doesn't have Wolverine in her pocket already, she will soon.

Of all the possible retcon issues that will come of this, I'm most curious how things with Destiny played out in Moira's tenth life. Does Moira X just never come on Destiny's radar when she was alive because she was devoted to helping mutants/not trying to kill her? And if that's the case, why is she afraid of Destiny being brought back now if her motivation is still pure?

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by MartijnB » 09 Oct 2019, 19:25

@QaD well part of it is that the actual reveal was made this issue, so it only makes sense that people would share their thoughts about it in the topic about the issue where it became canon. Given it literally puts the whole universe at stake I am almost surprised there isn't a bigger response lol. I don't wanna come across as actively fighting this, but in a response to it being done I did wanna share my opinion.

@BC multiversal thinker, I'll take that, I dig Hickman activating that part of me

and actually yeah... Blindfold... does that mean Xavier revived every recently deceased X-Men under the sun but left Blindfold dead because, as was stated this issue, he can't have precogs?

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Cosmos666 » 09 Oct 2019, 19:26

A few thoughts:

1) I'm happy that I was right about Moira VI and how it made her do a 180º turn and be more agressive in subsequent lifes.

2) The whole Ascension plot about natural evolution vs. artificial evolution is giving me Neon Genesis Evangelion vibes i.e. Human Instrumentality Project. And now I have a image of Scott as Shinji, Jean as Rei and Emma as Asuka fighting in big mechas. :lol:

3) I love that we are already seeing the cracks in the new status quo: Emma's schemes; Mystique's demands; Moira vs. Charles & Erik. It is going to see a fun ride.

4) I still think that Jean is being restrained in someway as a back-up in case everything goes pear-shaped. There must be a reason why Hickman wrote that the Phoenix, alongside Galactus, are the only primal threats feared by the Dominions.

5) Interesting that the Librarian says that after he ascends he won't be subjected to Moira's reboot power, meaning that is has a limit field of action.

6) Consequence of points (4) and (5), I wonder if an ascended White Phoenix of the Crown Jean would outside of Moira's powers' zone of influence.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Oct 2019, 19:28

You know what? I’m pissed cause Hickman’s Destiny was the best mutant character the entire series and now we might not get her back lol...
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Nu-D » 09 Oct 2019, 20:37

Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 19:28
You know what? I’m pissed cause Hickman’s Destiny was the best mutant character the entire series and now we might not get her back lol...
Oh, she’ll be back. Mystique going through shenanigans to get her back is clearly an upcoming plot line.

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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Quick and Dead » 09 Oct 2019, 20:48

Yeah, if anything, I'm more excited for Destiny. She'll definitely be a major player when she does show up.
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Oct 2019, 21:03

oh s*** !!! @Username: remember Doug-warlock tainted Krakoa...this definitely plays into the larger context and will be what pulls the Dominion into things
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Re: Powers of X #6 (SPOILERS)

Post by Flapflop » 09 Oct 2019, 21:26

das_boot wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 16:14
You know what...
Spoiler: show
i was right about Moira’s deaths eliminating a time line and i’d quite like some applause for that since most of y’all were all “LOL NO STUPID DAS_BOOT THATS NOT WHAT WAS SAID”.

You’re welcome.
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