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Uncanny X-men #11

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das_boot
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by das_boot » 07 Feb 2019, 18:30

Nothing to do with the plot of the issue. This is all my emotional response to Rosenberg’s post and could be triggering but I want to put this out here because the X-Men and some of the people on this forum are why i’m still even here. This is 100% a trigger warning for some real shit ahead and a warning not to read it if you’re not in a good mental place right now.
Spoiler: show
I’m genuinely really emotional after reading his post.

I don’t talk about it often, but I’ve been a long time sufferer of depression and anxiety. I’ve had periods of feeling suicidal. I’ve self-harmed. There have been points in my life where I have literally and actively hated myself.

I wondered why this issue hit me so hard. I’m as recovered as I’m ever likely to be. I’m in a good place right now, mentally, and it’s been nearly a decade since i’ve harmed myself or felt the very serious compulsion to do so.

I never thought that I’d read an issue of X-Men that deals with this issue in a way that isn’t seen as heroic, or sacrificial, but in a real sense— escape. To end things.

Someone once said the same words to me when I was at rock bottom, a bottle of vodka in one hand, several boxes of sleeping pills in front of me and the lighter that i’d been using to burn myself with and it was that horrific but amazing moment of clarity where a very dear friend told me that if I went ahead with it, I couldn’t take it back and it was forever. I’d entirely forgotten about that moment until I read Rosenberg’s post.

I’ve had that same moment of clarity as Rosenberg and I love that i’m still here. But my heart breaks for the people like Blindfold who can’t see that there’s always another way.

Big love to you all.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Milkshake08 » 07 Feb 2019, 19:30

We're all glad you're still around, das. *heart*

This issue was...rough. I can't comment on it much because it hit really close to home and I'm kind of still processing it. Which I think means it was a very good issue. I think this will go down in the X-mythos as one of those historical single issue stories, like Lifedeath or Illyana's succumbing to the Legacy Virus. Powerful read.

As a fan of the new X-Men kids, I'm very sad about Alani. But I also think that this may bring her back into the fold in a way. No one cared about Maggott until he was unceremoniously killed, and now there's a huge pull to bring him back. Death isn't permanent often in comics. And though I wish they'd used Match or Primal or Transonic or any of the Bendis kids, I have faith there may still be a future for Alani, and even Ruth.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by EphemeristX » 07 Feb 2019, 23:17

Also, Ruth sort of still expected Loa to come along. She's a bit confused, but she seems to know when dead is dead. Maybe there's another wrinkle here.

Sorry to hear about your struggles, boot. Glad to hear you're in a better headspace and things have improved for you.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Feb 2019, 23:28

das_boot wrote:
07 Feb 2019, 18:30
Nothing to do with the plot of the issue. This is all my emotional response to Rosenberg’s post and could be triggering but I want to put this out here because the X-Men and some of the people on this forum are why i’m still even here. This is 100% a trigger warning for some real shit ahead and a warning not to read it if you’re not in a good mental place right now.
Spoiler: show
I’m genuinely really emotional after reading his post.

I don’t talk about it often, but I’ve been a long time sufferer of depression and anxiety. I’ve had periods of feeling suicidal. I’ve self-harmed. There have been points in my life where I have literally and actively hated myself.

I wondered why this issue hit me so hard. I’m as recovered as I’m ever likely to be. I’m in a good place right now, mentally, and it’s been nearly a decade since i’ve harmed myself or felt the very serious compulsion to do so.

I never thought that I’d read an issue of X-Men that deals with this issue in a way that isn’t seen as heroic, or sacrificial, but in a real sense— escape. To end things.

Someone once said the same words to me when I was at rock bottom, a bottle of vodka in one hand, several boxes of sleeping pills in front of me and the lighter that i’d been using to burn myself with and it was that horrific but amazing moment of clarity where a very dear friend told me that if I went ahead with it, I couldn’t take it back and it was forever. I’d entirely forgotten about that moment until I read Rosenberg’s post.

I’ve had that same moment of clarity as Rosenberg and I love that i’m still here. But my heart breaks for the people like Blindfold who can’t see that there’s always another way.

Big love to you all.

Boots you’re somebody i’ve really grown to care about over these years, so I’m really glad you’re in a better headspace.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Jazzkantine » 07 Feb 2019, 23:38

In the afternoon I wrote a longer reply to what das_ posted.

It turned out to be completely and utterly cheese, with at least 2 marriage proposals and complaining about the weather.
We got to know each other more than 10 years ago I think, when I have been here for the first time. He allowed me sneek peeks into his marvelous fan fictions.

You are a wonderful and lovely guy, with a mind full of amazing ideas and phantasies and I am grateful to know you.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Jazzkantine » 07 Feb 2019, 23:39

Hey BC, when will you write something nice like that for me? :mrgreen:
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Magnus
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Magnus » 08 Feb 2019, 00:24

I find it interesting that while under Brisson's pen in the Annual, Cyclops seemed to rejecting his prior actions as wrong (or at least flawed) and moving back to his more heroic incarnation. Whereas here under Rosenberg he's picking up right where he left off, lashing out (deservedly) at people and taking risky moves that the more calm, calculated Cyclops wouldn't have done. I think both sides are equally plausible, but it is a bit strange to have them so close to each other. Personally, I would've liked for the ambush at the end to be part of Cyclops' plan (knowing he'd lure enemies into the open, and then sic Wolverine and himself on them) instead of looking like Cyclops just messed up badly and Wolverine saved his ass, but that's just me. Still was a good moment to see them fighting side-by-side again.

It's interesting to see the story unfold from multiple POVs. One thing that struck me is that Cyclops feels very much alone, cut off and at his wit's end, whereas Wolverine just seems to find people no problem and doesn't seem bothered. Clearly one of them is better adjusted at the moment.

It also feels a bit strange for Kid Cable to bring his dad back and then basically leave him on his own to go deal with things in Madeupistan. I guess he's really dedicated to the whole TimeCop thing and there's obvious time traveler problems to deal with over there, but one would think that having all the X-Men disappear might be a bigger problem.

I admit that I originally didn't understand why Blindfold killed herself, and had to re-read it a couple times... I guess the panels in red are supposed to be her dying in various near futures and she didn't see any futures where she lived, so she decided to go out on her own terms? It's a powerful message, certainly, but I have trouble believing that she couldn't go seek help from the Avengers or something. And I agree that having Loa killed off so unceremoniously is unfortunate.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Feb 2019, 01:16

It could be that what she sees is so bad, it just didn’t matter (and that the Avengers can’t help, I mean it’s vague so they could be dead too)...I think that’s the idea about feeling that hopeless...

I can see how the two depictions match up because there’s supposed to be a decent amount of time between the two events. So Cyke had time to unravel...

And I think Logan appears more adjusted because he’s Logan (been to hell before...literally) and he had his own side adventures before now. So he had time to adjust. Cyke came back, stayed in a bunker, had his epiphany moment and then bam the world went to shit for mutants...
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Flapflop » 08 Feb 2019, 09:43

Magnus wrote:
08 Feb 2019, 00:24
I admit that I originally didn't understand why Blindfold killed herself, and had to re-read it a couple times... I guess the panels in red are supposed to be her dying in various near futures and she didn't see any futures where she lived, so she decided to go out on her own terms? It's a powerful message, certainly, but I have trouble believing that she couldn't go seek help from the Avengers or something. And I agree that having Loa killed off so unceremoniously is unfortunate.
That how i read them too. It are indeed all futures where she dies horribly, so she decides to go on her own terms :cry:

Its good they put that suicide prevention note in the end. Because Blindfold is a precog and could see literally no future, in the real world people dont know for sure but feel the same.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Wings » 08 Feb 2019, 12:23

Even before reading that Facebook post, you could tell that real heart and thought had gone into what Rosenberg had Ruth do in this issue. And honestly with all the Academy X generation has been through I am surprised we haven't had such a story involving them earlier aside from X-23's issues with self-harm, it would be (sadly) reflective of my generation (late teens-early twenties). All my boyfriends, and a great deal of my friends have dealt with issues relating to self-harm, and suicidal thoughts, myself included. And while, yes, the depiction of Ruth's death was graphic, it wasn't glamourised, it was rightfully depicted as a tragedy that shouldn't have occurred . Even her precog powers weren't operating as they normally did (Gabriel mentions she was having trouble separating the past and the present from the future), just like in the real world, it seemed to Ruth that there was no way out, but ultimately we don't know that. Neither does Ruth, and therein lies the tragedy. Big hugs to everyone on the board who has had to deal with this stuff, and I'm so very glad to know you all.

I'm still holding out hope for the potential that Alani and Ruth will be resurrected. That after the Age of X-Man falls apart and that Nate Grey is confronted with the world he engineered by taking the X-Men out of it to create his "utopia" that he'll use the last of his power to try and set some things right.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Quick and Dead » 09 Feb 2019, 06:44

Damn... From both reading the issue itself to this board's reactions, I think it's safe to say this is the best issue of Uncanny in years.

Ruth's death hurt for many reasons, most have been mentioned, but it was such a gut punch for me because for most of the issue, I was giddy that she was getting such a major role.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Fenix » 09 Feb 2019, 12:33

Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Feb 2019, 14:14
Fenix wrote:
07 Feb 2019, 00:50
Blackcyclops wrote:
06 Feb 2019, 22:52
Maybe you didn’t read it, but this is very similarly to how he was during the Utopia Era...he’s just more desperate, less in control and a tad bit suicidal.
I did, I have read pretty much any X-Book ever published.
His role and attitude during the Utopia era was, imo, different based in several circumstances.
First, he was the figure everybody was looking up to, a leader, not simply as strategist or field leader but more similar to what Xavier or Magneto was to his students/followers respectively.
He was under really dire circumstances but extremely supported by his own people, never ever Cyclops had so many resources as during the whole Utopia run no matter how bad mutantkind's shape was looking like at the moment.

However during his X-Factor days it was pretty much Cyclops and the original 5 on their own, no X-men (dead), no New Mutants (under Magneto's tutelage), saving mutants and recruiting them (Rusty, Skids, Artie, Leech, Rictor, Boom Boom, Caliban).
X-Factor were quite pragmatic even if idealistic.

I keep recognizing Scott here as a true believer, he is not trying to lead again, he is just rejecting the idea that the Xmen are dead, he wants to bring the band together even if it means starting from 0 and/or finding any surviving Xmen affiliated mutants, because there are mutants in the World that still need to be protected and Xavier's dream still lives right here, at Cyclops' soul.
He might be suffering, he might be even desperate as things are not being really easy, but what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. That final fight against all Reavers, Purifiers... made its point.

U can disagree, there is room for different opinions here, right?

Who said you couldn’t disagree lol? I asked a question and stated my take. Am I not allowed to disagree with you? Because I took your point about Cyke not ringing true and even with the elaboration, I still took it as not an entirely accurate description of Cyke in that era.

1) Cyke was a true believer during the Utopia era, you might not agree with what he believed in but he was a true believer. One of the things he was dinged on about on this board was his faith in mutantkind surviving and Hope’s rule in everything.
2) Cyke is still putting mutantkind first...just like he did back then on Utopia.
3) He suffered and took big losses then too but still pushed through.

Maybe I’m bugging but it just feels like some people who dislike the Utopia era Cyke but like him in these 2 appearances now are like purposely ignoring how much he is still that same guy. Its’s not character reversal but a continuation of it. I mean shit he definitely just murdered a shit-ton of Purifiers amd Sapien League dudes lol
BC, my friendly advice is that you should try not to read between lines in forums. I guess there are some people dropping "bombs" here and there but Its not my case. What I write is what I mean.

"Who said you couldn’t disagree lol? I asked a question and stated my take. Am I not allowed to disagree with you? Because I took your point about Cyke not ringing true and even with the elaboration, I still took it as not an entirely accurate description of Cyke in that era."
I just said there is room for everybody's opinion. But seeing ur answer it really feels like you felt attacked which I dont understand.
True or False, regarding characters and personal point of views, is relative. My opinion rings true to me and some of my friends, while others disagree, it never means my truth is "truer" than theirs or yours.

"1) Cyke was a true believer during the Utopia era, you might not agree with what he believed in but he was a true believer. One of the things he was dinged on about on this board was his faith in mutantkind surviving and Hope’s rule in everything."
I agree, yet imo during the Utopia era (using the same context) he played his own version of "the dream" and adapted it to the extreme circumstances, shaping himself and the whole Xmen accordingly.

"2) Cyke is still putting mutantkind first...just like he did back then on Utopia.
3) He suffered and took big losses then too but still pushed through."
I disagree (partially).
If we take both the annual and this issue in consideration we can extrapolate that Scott doesnt put mankind over mutantkind, as I see things Scott thinks the World is a really worse place without the Xmen, the Xmen were the public image to mutantkind, their prime heroes and those in charge to protect humans from mutants and mutants from humans. That's Xavier's dream, mutants and human coexisting together in peace.
The fact he stayed loyal to this human helping him in the past instead of running to join the X-Men in their battle with X-Man means a lot.
If he really wants to gather a new X-Men team is because:
- mutants are in danger again, nobody is worrying too much about them revealing (once again) the Avengers' hypocrisy, as they are always too busy doing other things.
- he firmly believes the X-Men are not dead, no matter what it looks like or what everybody believes, and he wants to find them.

"Maybe I’m bugging but it just feels like some people who dislike the Utopia era Cyke but like him in these 2 appearances now are like purposely ignoring how much he is still that same guy. Its’s not character reversal but a continuation of it. I mean shit he definitely just murdered a shit-ton of Purifiers amd Sapien League dudes lol"
Maybe. Actually I've consistently liked Cyclops forever even if I disagreed with many things he did. But his whole "mutantkind leader" era wasnt my favourite era. I think after reading one or two of my previous post everybody can guess whats my favourite era.
I agree with you that this Cyclops is a continuation of his ever evolving character.
But again I didnt feel killing Reavers, Purifiers and Sapien Leaguers in self defense when being so outnumbered and with enemies shooting to kill was putting Cyclops in the X-Force path.
The X-Men have always killed if needed to survive/save lives.
Its clear the X-Men's enemies have been actively working in their own agenda using the X-Men absence in their advantage and that a new X-men is key to stop the mutant phobia/hating and all their enemies targetting former X-men associates or innocent mutants.
And well, mercy is a privilege for peaceful times, the new status quo is telling us loudly that they might need to kill or be killed.

I really hope this post does sit well to you and we can continue talking as usual no matter if we have strong and different opinions here and there.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by das_boot » 10 Feb 2019, 16:57

Firstly, thank you all for your kind comments. I didn’t mean to just drop a bomb and then ignore the thread, but seriously, you guys are wonderful, even BC 😘

Secondly... yeah. On one hand it’s wonderful to see how much this issue has resonated with pretty much everyone, and it’s also amazing to see the responses online to everyone whose posted on twitter about how this issue has effected them— it’s just a beautiful moment.

ANYWAY.

I can’t help but feel that perhaps the deaths/power-related mishaps of the young generation is going to come into play after Age of X-Man. The kids who are part of this warp returning and seeing that AGAIN it’s some of their friends that have died (and, fair question; since inception, have ANY of the other youth teams (NM, GX, NX, GH, WATX) suffered as heavy casualties as this generation? Not in terms of percentages of deaths on the team, but as an actual total of deaths, surely the New X-Men generation have suffered the highest mortality rate despite arguably being better trained and having a wider variety of powersets? ANYWAY).

What I was going to say is that I think/hope this is the catalyst for the younger X-Men to either strike out on their own or just simply demand better training.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Fenix » 11 Feb 2019, 00:16

das_boot wrote:
10 Feb 2019, 16:57
Firstly, thank you all for your kind comments. I didn’t mean to just drop a bomb and then ignore the thread, but seriously, you guys are wonderful, even BC 😘

Secondly... yeah. On one hand it’s wonderful to see how much this issue has resonated with pretty much everyone, and it’s also amazing to see the responses online to everyone whose posted on twitter about how this issue has effected them— it’s just a beautiful moment.

ANYWAY.

I can’t help but feel that perhaps the deaths/power-related mishaps of the young generation is going to come into play after Age of X-Man. The kids who are part of this warp returning and seeing that AGAIN it’s some of their friends that have died (and, fair question; since inception, have ANY of the other youth teams (NM, GX, NX, GH, WATX) suffered as heavy casualties as this generation? Not in terms of percentages of deaths on the team, but as an actual total of deaths, surely the New X-Men generation have suffered the highest mortality rate despite arguably being better trained and having a wider variety of powersets? ANYWAY).

What I was going to say is that I think/hope this is the catalyst for the younger X-Men to either strike out on their own or just simply demand better training.
I really hope this triggers a proper new xmen book with the students as they really deserve it.
And, somehow, I really hope there is a hat trick waiting for us and both Loa and Blindfold resurrect... Im not into character deaths :(

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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by das_boot » 11 Feb 2019, 07:38

Fenix, with the greatest of respect, if you’re not into character deaths, when the characters spend their lives jumping out of the way of bullets, death rays, punches from people literally made of metal, giant robots, demons from hell etc... like... not everyone would survive those encounters, y’know? Deaths are nearly always inevitable at some point 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Fenix » 11 Feb 2019, 22:22

das_boot wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 07:38
Fenix, with the greatest of respect, if you’re not into character deaths, when the characters spend their lives jumping out of the way of bullets, death rays, punches from people literally made of metal, giant robots, demons from hell etc... like... not everyone would survive those encounters, y’know? Deaths are nearly always inevitable at some point 🤷‍♂️
I know, I understand some characters die making sense in the context of the story told, giving depth and shock and making them "human" in the process.
But I rarely like when they kill off a character, most of times is not really adding anything to the story, its not justified at all or it serves just as a cheap shock value to remind us "nothing is going to be the same".

I can give you several examples of character deaths that made little or no sense to me and troubled me for long time.
Colossus and his Legacy Virus death; Psylocke against Vargas; Maggot in Weapon X (off panel); Cyclops and the terrigenesis cloud in Death of X; Jean Grey and her death in Planet X (Morrison's) and the dozen other deaths afterwards in Endsong, all the New Xmen kids in Kyle and Yost era... and now Loa, Blindfold and probably Velocidad.
All of them can be justified here and there or some of us can even say those deaths had a meaning and some relevance to the story and afterwards, but overall I see most of them as a cheap death.
I just cant believe they killed Loa in a panel and that they killed Blindfold... BUT Im hoping Legion is going to fix this :) wishful thinking!

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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Magnus » 12 Feb 2019, 04:20

Psylocke's death I think was just to create stakes and make Vargas an imposing villain. Basically an extreme Worf Effect. Same for the New X-Men killed by K/Y and Loa here, which I'd agree were badly handled.

Colossus' and Jean's deaths I think were attempts to move things in a new direction. In Colossus' case the story was more to wrap up the Legacy Virus, but also give an old character one last moment (and perhaps free up Kitty?) I think Jean's death (and Magneto's in the same issue for that matter) was Morrison trying to move things forward, especially allowing the Scott/Emma romance to move forward.

Cyclops' death in Death of X is interesting in that I think they had a really good, important plot reason (Cyclops doing something really controversial and dying doing it) but then the actual execution of it was totally underwhelming, and even logically inconsistent with the direction the plot was designed to move in. But you certainly can't say that it wasn't necessary for the plot, sorta like (early Game of Thrones spoilers)
Spoiler: show
Robert and Ned's deaths are necessary to move the plot forward

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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Blackcyclops » 12 Feb 2019, 04:32

Magnus wrote:
12 Feb 2019, 04:20
Psylocke's death I think was just to create stakes and make Vargas an imposing villain. Basically an extreme Worf Effect. Same for the New X-Men killed by K/Y and Loa here, which I'd agree were badly handled.

Colossus' and Jean's deaths I think were attempts to move things in a new direction. In Colossus' case the story was more to wrap up the Legacy Virus, but also give an old character one last moment (and perhaps free up Kitty?) I think Jean's death (and Magneto's in the same issue for that matter) was Morrison trying to move things forward, especially allowing the Scott/Emma romance to move forward.

Cyclops' death in Death of X is interesting in that I think they had a really good, important plot reason (Cyclops doing something really controversial and dying doing it) but then the actual execution of it was totally underwhelming, and even logically inconsistent with the direction the plot was designed to move in. But you certainly can't say that it wasn't necessary for the plot, sorta like (early Game of Thrones spoilers)
Spoiler: show
Robert and Ned's deaths are necessary to move the plot forward
Disagree strongly about the New X-Men, don’t think it was done badly or to make the Purifiers look bad-ass. I agree Loa’s death was meh but I think it was moreso for a tone setting...

Otherwise you basically nailed the rest...which is why I’d never blanket say “deaths are bad”.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Flapflop » 12 Feb 2019, 14:23

Magnus wrote:
12 Feb 2019, 04:20
Colossus' and Jean's deaths I think were attempts to move things in a new direction. In Colossus' case the story was more to wrap up the Legacy Virus, but also give an old character one last moment (and perhaps free up Kitty?) I think Jean's death (and Magneto's in the same issue for that matter) was Morrison trying to move things forward, especially allowing the Scott/Emma romance to move forward.

Cyclops' death in Death of X is interesting in that I think they had a really good, important plot reason (Cyclops doing something really controversial and dying doing it)
Colossus: death well executed, but the resurrection (to bring him back in the fold to give Kitty her love interest back) made, though hapyy he is back ofcourse, his death basically a non issue.

Morrison intended from the beginning that Xorn wás Magneto in disguise, and died for his crimes and also should end the endless feud between Xavier and Magneto ones and foreall, just like Scott and Jean had to break up someway to give room for the new direction with Emma. The Marvel head editors weren't happy though and ordered the retcon almost instantly so Magneto became Xorn posing as Magneto.

For Cyclops they had a good plot reason, but the plot reason intended (Cyclops doing something really controversial and dying doing it) was badly executed. Because what he did wasn't that bad, though the issues after the gap after Secret Wars let us believe it was very bad, but in fact it wasn't (and it was Emma all the time, because he was already dead).
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by Blackcyclops » 12 Feb 2019, 16:23

Actually CC was the one who wanted Magneto back...he felt Morrison’s story was a disservice to Magneto

But thats really a WHOLE different thread...

I kinda like though that Ruth’s death isn’t explicitly show...like the one she actually choses herself. It keeps it from being gratuitous.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #11

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 24 Feb 2019, 03:33

That opening narration about all X-Men stories being the same was very on point:
https://twitter.com/spacetwinks/status/ ... 7938719744

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