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Uncanny X-men #4

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Jazzkantine
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Jazzkantine » 06 Dec 2018, 17:39

Blackcyclops wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 16:56
Jazzkantine wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 15:32
Maybe instead of touching Ink, we should kill of Jason Aaron’s kids when he transformed the mansion into Hogwarts.

But none of them are in this issue lol, why attack them? Lol...plus I’ll fight for Kid Gladiator, Broo, and Eyeboy
Well, sadly the writers don’t seem to be interested in your kids either. Maybe they all were killed in that big explosion last issue.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Dec 2018, 17:50

They were all out shopping with dust and Surge...
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Jazzkantine » 06 Dec 2018, 17:56

And Ink and Graymalkin were at Leon‘s tattoo place.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Milkshake08 » 06 Dec 2018, 18:23

Oh i appreciate Glob's showing for mutants that are ugly, and I like Morrison's students a lot, but Quire and Glob are two that I have a hard time swallowing. Quire and Glob literally betrayed the X-Men on several occasions and have been terrorists. It's the same reason I don't like Sabretooth or Mystique as X-Men...they aren't trustworthy and really aren't very good people. But we seem to shrug it off with the kids while making it pretty explicit with the adults. I mean, Quire tried to kill a bunch of people on numerous occasions. Do I enjoy reading him in West Coast Avengers? Yes. But I frankly hate the character as a hero, and Glob, his right hand man, is the same. Plus, we already have the same sense of humor shown in Rockslide. You can literally take any line of Glob's and put it in Rockslide's mouth and it wouldn't change, and that's a problem, especially when they are both in the same book. They're redundant. And Glob wasn't even given a personality until long after Rockslide's was established, so it's like a copied character with a unique look, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, too. I'd much prefer he just be a villain, then I would have no issue with him.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Dec 2018, 18:28

See I think Rockslide and Glob are very different personality wise...and it shows in this book too.

Quire though...falls into the reform-policy area of the mutant world (along with Mystique and Magneto in my mind tbh). But Quire’s been a hero far longer than he was a villain, unlike say Sabretooth. Both in-continuity and in publication. But he’s in WCA killing it so lol
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Jazzkantine » 06 Dec 2018, 18:48

I think the writers should finally decide now if the kids are X-Men or not. We had countless speeches about the kids being X-Men, then suddenly they were degraded again and everytime danger appeared the kids were put into the safe room although most of them are experienced fighters.

Maybe they are going to do something with Glob in the future, because I can’t think of another reason why they would feature and use Glob so much instead of Rockslide. I am a sucker for those B and C list characters, but I am not really into this favoring when there are dozens of other kids fans ask for.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Dec 2018, 21:23

Well have they really as a general group been called X-Men since the Schism? And I don’t mean X-Men in terms of the family aspect, I mean X-Men in terms of the foot soldiers of Xavier’s ideology? In dire situations they’ve been pulled to the forefront but it seems that since Logan split from cyke, they’ve tried overall to keep the students off the frontline...this doesn’t mean they never fight but it seems they’ve treated the larger student body not as fighters but more like how CC originally treated the New Mutants. I didnt read Gugs stuff so i could be wrong though.

The writer just likes him...I mean that’s a thing too, to be fair. It’s why so many of Rosenberg’s stuff has featured him or why Taylor uses Honey badger alot. People use who they like...that’s not new though. I’m sure Magma fans hated how NM writers kept downplaying her back in the day lol

I mean at the end of the day, there’s always gonna be somebody picked over someone else’s fave...heck I got somebody I like alot more than Anole (looking at you Broo and Idie) but hey, I know stuff happens lol
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Milkshake08 » 06 Dec 2018, 22:36

Blackcyclops wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 18:28
See I think Rockslide and Glob are very different personality wise...and it shows in this book too.

Quire though...falls into the reform-policy area of the mutant world (along with Mystique and Magneto in my mind tbh). But Quire’s been a hero far longer than he was a villain, unlike say Sabretooth. Both in-continuity and in publication. But he’s in WCA killing it so lol
Not to "but actually" you, BC, but that's just factually incorrect. Quire was introduced in 2001 as a drug addict and bully who started the riot at Xavier's causing Sophie and others' deaths. He returned in Endsong, wishing to ressurrect Sophie. In both instances he was very predatory towards her, and was intended to be so by Morrison in his original story. After that, he appeared several more times as a villain, attacking Utopia, attacking humans, and becoming the catalyst for the schism between Cyclops and Wolverine...which was less than 6 years ago, our time. He's been around for 18 years and been a villain for over 10 of those years, and since then, he was still predatory towards Idie (granted, that could be up to interpretation, but my interpretation is that he was; an older guy, say 16-18 aggressively pursuing a 14 year old girl who at the time was very religious and virginal). He's never been repentant, truly, just a better person some of the time. For as much as we cry about Bishop's inadequate redemption arc, no one seems to note that Quentin has yet to really acknowledge his past crimes, and he's still an asshat to everyone, too. I just made an X-Men history guidebook for my brother for Christmas, so I'm up on the history of literally all the characters right now, it's fresh in my mind. I even recorded their first appearances and year (thanks UXN.net!)

And if Glob and Rockslide seem different to you in this book, I'm interested in having you explain how. (This isn't to be snarky, I'm willing to cave if you can describe their personalities in any way that I feel isn't redundant). I barely think anyone has time to have much of a personality here besides Armor and Jean, let alone the two jokey members of the young team with five lines an issue.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Dec 2018, 22:52

It's only been 18 years? I stand corrected...in my mind it's been ALOT longer since Morrison's run. I never saw the Idie and Quire relationship as predatory but that's only because Quire wasn't wrote the same as he was in Morrison's run (like he felt very much aged down) and Idie wasn't written as naive as she was in Generation Hope, but I can see your view a well. See I think he has been more repetent than you're giving him credit but that might be me tripping.

As for Glob and Rockslide...I personally feel that Rockslide always felt much closer to the Thing in personality but sillier and more of a braggart. He leans much more into the idea of being a superhero. It's why he feels less tragic than the Thing, even though there are softness to him too.
Glob, meanwhile, feels much more like a tragic character who ends up the butt of people's jokes. He's similar to Shocker in Spencer's Superior Foes run or how the Porcupine started off in Spider-woman before he was reformed, he's the loser of the group (not to be mean). He's not the one making jokes, he's the one being joked on. That also means he comes across as much more willing to follow and would truly never lead. Basically in my mind Rockslide is always the jock and Glob, the "uncool" kid who some folks keep around because they feel sorry for him or they want someone to make fun of. But again, that's just how I've grown to view them. It's why I would never read a Glob Herman solo book, but he would always make for great supporting cast character. Whereas, Rockslide could definitely headline a book...
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Milkshake08 » 06 Dec 2018, 23:32

I mean, that's a fair analysis of the two, I'll give it to you. I don't necessarily feel it comes across in this book, but it did in the Christmas special, for example. It doesn't really endear Glob to me, though.

I agree Quire was written differntly by Aaron, and that was my biggest problem with his run that I wish would be addressed. Quire went from being a human-killing sadistic predator to suddenly just like a misunderstood teenager dude don't you get it? character and I to this day despise that weird and abrupt transition. I've also felt it was...well, kinda douchey of Aaron to do that, because it sort of made it seem like he was cool and admirable rather than just a giant jerk.

As for this issue, though, I will say I'm intrigued by what's going on with Apocalypse. How many issues is this storyline?

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Dec 2018, 00:01

Dang Milks, I want us to agree LOL...but I didn't read Aaron's Quire (especially at the beginning) as cool or admirable, like not in the least. Over time though, he did grow and change and we saw the insecurities and weakness. But I never saw him as cool and I don't think that was the intention...it's one of the reasons I do like the character. In WCA it comes across all the time as him being somebody who tries too hard...and that's why I find the character intriguing. But I think it's just that we feel differently about him.

I read the Christmas special and I agree with you on that one. But I do, when written well, he is endearing to me. But that's my odd-self lol
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Jazzkantine » 07 Dec 2018, 00:12

I could slap myself for this now, but maybe Aaron’s characterization of Quire showed us the, well, real Quire?

When we first saw Quire, he and the others were already addicted to this Sublime drug and they all behaved like bullies as far as I remember. Quentin was this cold as ice killer kind of guy.

The Omega Gang appeared and New Warriors (clean from the drug) and they behaved more heroic.

Quire‘s attitude changed when he was resurrected/came to the school, also free of the drug.


I guess the Morrison Quire was heavily influenced by the Sublime drug that turned him into a killer. Look what happened to Xorn I.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Magnus » 07 Dec 2018, 00:16

So the Horsemen are our universe's Magneto/Omega Red/Blob/Angel, huh? I was a bit surprised by that. Not least because didn't Blob die last we saw him in X-Men Blue? But also it seems weird that they set up Magneto as a new Brotherhood leader only to immediately have him get changed. I wonder what the time passage between the last few arcs (end of Blue/Gold, the Blacks, and then Extermination) and this are supposed to be. Hope makes a comment in The Exterminated (which is explicitly pre-UXM #1) that it's been awhile since Cable died so I think there's the potential for a relatively longish period.

I'm enjoying this story a decent amount, not least because it definitely seems to have a direction and is running with it. Certainly a lot better than, say, the M-Pox in Extraordinary X-Men (which turned into 18 issues of killing time) or whatever X-Men Gold was supposed to be doing.

That said, I am definitely not a fan of the teacher/student split here. I still feel like Armor doesn't fit the role here and it would've made a lot more sense for someone like Surge or Hellion. I said before it made sense for Jean to not trust the students since she doesn't know them, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening here, it's just the plot is "older don't trust the younger" and Jean's the current leader so she makes the call. If she were still dead it'd be Storm doing the same thing, IMO.

And while I like Glob (really surprised he has so many haters... some of you guys sound like you'd be at the front of the line for hating on "ugly" mutants lol) I agree that it's weird to have him in the group with the other young X-Men like Armor, Anole, Rockslide, and Pixie. Also it seems like all the writers forget he was one of Quire's rioting students... somewhere along the line he got separated from the rest of the Omega Gang.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by das_boot » 07 Dec 2018, 00:47

Magnus, I can’t disagree with you more about Hisako not fitting the voice of dissent. Other than Pixie (who simply doesn’t have this kind of confidence/arrogance in her personality), Hisako’s the only one of these students who hasn’t only insinuated her way onto a team despite her youth and inexperience, but she’s clocked up some hella impressive battle scores— fought against Ord and the Breakworlders, held her own against a militant Danger Room that had taken down a lot of the more experienced X-Men, went to space, was Wolverine’s surrogate Kitty for a hot minute, was always shown as one of the more capable students in events like Messiah Complex and Second Coming, took on the new Brotherhood, went to the Negative Zone, and i’m probably missing loads more. She’s arguably one of the few students who hasn’t just stayed relevant since the loss of a long-running student book, but she’s clearly enjoyed some level of reservist status amongst the actual proper X-Men teams. She makes perfect sense to have this dissenting voice, and I could go on, but I feel like I argued this point with you last week and for some reason you still haven’t conceded that I’m correct 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Milkshake08 » 07 Dec 2018, 01:00

I don't hate Glob cuz he's ugly. I love Marrow as a character. I really like Rockslide, Caliban is fine, I even kinda like Maggott a bit. Glob just rubs me the wrong way.

I'm also interested in Magneto's new Brotherhood. I'm assuming they'll be back after the world turns normal again. Weren't Unuscione, Elixir, and Marrow on that page? I didn't read Blue but I remember you all talking about it.

And Jazz, Quire wasn't just bad on the drug. I mentioned several of his other appearances. He was always a villain until Aaron decided he wasn't. And BC, we actually DO agree. I think he's always been someone striving for attention who is actually really insecure. I like the character. I just don't like that he's never himself dealt personally with the murder of several humans he performed. I think Thompson writes him well in WCA, and I like him there. I just refuse to think of him as a hero.

Where was Omega Red before this? I'm fuzzy on his recent history.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Dec 2018, 01:06

He was/is on the Weapon X-Force team...
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Magnus » 07 Dec 2018, 02:18

das_boot wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 00:47
Magnus, I can’t disagree with you more about Hisako not fitting the voice of dissent. Other than Pixie (who simply doesn’t have this kind of confidence/arrogance in her personality), Hisako’s the only one of these students who hasn’t only insinuated her way onto a team despite her youth and inexperience, but she’s clocked up some hella impressive battle scores— fought against Ord and the Breakworlders, held her own against a militant Danger Room that had taken down a lot of the more experienced X-Men, went to space, was Wolverine’s surrogate Kitty for a hot minute, was always shown as one of the more capable students in events like Messiah Complex and Second Coming, took on the new Brotherhood, went to the Negative Zone, and i’m probably missing loads more. She’s arguably one of the few students who hasn’t just stayed relevant since the loss of a long-running student book, but she’s clearly enjoyed some level of reservist status amongst the actual proper X-Men teams. She makes perfect sense to have this dissenting voice, and I could go on, but I feel like I argued this point with you last week and for some reason you still haven’t conceded that I’m correct 🤷‍♂️
I don't disagree at all she has the resume to be on the grown-up squad. I just feel that, like Pixie, she isn't the sort personality-wise to choose this battle; she's always felt a bit more reserved/understanding. I suppose this could be some sort of long-simmering feeling of "when are we ever going to be ready" but I feel like they have been made part of the team enough previously and the groundwork hasn't been laid (another reason I'm not a fan of this plot thread). That's one reason I think making this more about Jean (since she just came back) would make sense, but since the other X-Men aren't saying anything about it it seems like they're a unified front and it doesn't quite gel for me continuity-wise.

But it's also entirely possible that I've missed parts where Hisako has shown to be the sort of person who would be willing to confront the older X-Men about this... so many issues over so many years, I can't come close to remembering everything!

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Quick and Dead » 07 Dec 2018, 03:52

I would’ve loved if it was Surge instead of Hisako since Surge already had this type of character beat attached to her and it went nowhere but I’m okay with the idea of Hisako finally snapping. Both her and Pixie have gone back and forth between graduating school and becoming X-Men to finding themselves back among the the junior squad. It’s exhausting.

I don’t hate Glob because he’s ugly but there’s a difference between being an ugly character and having an ugly character design. The fact is most artists cannot draw Glob in a visually appealing way and he just stands out as an eyesore to me.

Also, Glob as this cuddly, innocent soul doesn’t match his earlier appearances and as far as I know, this transition was abrupt. He was part of Quentin’s Omega Gang and tried to kill humans. Then he betrayed the X-Men and joined the Hellfire Academy. Quentin followed Idie there, Idie was looking for who shot Broo, Toad followed Husk but Glob basically went to screw over the X-Men. Next, we saw him in Spider-Man and the X-Men and all was forgiven.

As far as him VS Rockslide goes. Both make dumb jokes but Santo is actually clever and witty, Glob is naive and often doesn’t quite grasp situations so there are differences. And to be fair, Glob appeared before him.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Dec 2018, 04:06

I agree 100% witth that QaD...few artist draw him actually as I think makes him look more interesting.

And yet I still read Glob differently lol...even his betrayal was a pathetic attempt at trying to be respected and relevant.

He’s never had the focus to really draw that out. I know Milkshake says Aaron just decided that Quire was a hero but he built him up to not be a villain over that series (I don’t know if I consider him a “hero” like say a Spider-man but Quire isn’t a villain tho). Glob has never really had that work or the moment like Quire curing Jubes or Quire seeing himself from the future as an actual hero.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Milkshake08 » 07 Dec 2018, 04:45

Oh BC, he's gotten work to be a better person. I said Quire hasn't specifically been called out on or dealt with the actual murders he'd done. The character work from Aaron that built him up was building him up from snotty boy-child to more responsible and heroic young adult, not from murderous predatory creep to anything else. He got a fresh start that was abrupt, not the heroism character beats. Let's also note besides Mystique, Magneto, and Sabretooth, he's the only x-man that's straight up murdered humans that weren't necessarily "bad." The difference is nobody trusts the other three, nor do they forget or deny that those characters have that history. The entire comic world seems to be all "oh Quire became a hero from being a rebellious dickish kid" not "oh yeah he like legit murdered people and stalked a girl and also threatened the UN on national television and tried to blow up Utopia and kill all the X-Men." It's not that Aaron didn't do work on him, it's that his starting point was wildly different from the character before that.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by das_boot » 07 Dec 2018, 10:30

Ditto Glob though. Didn’t he suffocate people during Morrison’s run? And since then he’s just turned up as a random comic relief character?

Also on the subject of “Surge or Hellion would have made a better voice of dissent than Hisako”— totally agree. 100%. But when was the last time we saw them doing anything? Because my memory’s telling me it was that all-female team which was... what? Four/five years ago now? They’ve barely been seen since. Hisako has. Therefore I still think she makes more sense here than some of the others would.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 07 Dec 2018, 11:10

Milkshake08 wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 01:00
I don't hate Glob cuz he's ugly. I love Marrow as a character. I really like Rockslide, Caliban is fine, I even kinda like Maggott a bit. Glob just rubs me the wrong way.
I'd argue that's the thing about Glob though. Marrow is comic book "ugly" in the same way Callisto is and has a cool visually appealing power. Rockslide LOOKS cool. Caliban at least passes for a sickly humanoid or looks cool. Maggot looks completely normal except for his maggots. Glob is literally one of the worst looking X-Men characters with absolutely no chance of co-existing with humanity without being pointed out as gross/scary by every small child he passes on the street.

The only characters I feel would be in the same "we just can't exist in normal society" wheelhouse as Glob are possibly Beak and No-Girl. I'm sure there are some others, but those are the first off the top of my head.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Dec 2018, 12:22

Milkshake08 wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 04:45
Oh BC, he's gotten work to be a better person. I said Quire hasn't specifically been called out on or dealt with the actual murders he'd done. The character work from Aaron that built him up was building him up from snotty boy-child to more responsible and heroic young adult, not from murderous predatory creep to anything else. He got a fresh start that was abrupt, not the heroism character beats. Let's also note besides Mystique, Magneto, and Sabretooth, he's the only x-man that's straight up murdered humans that weren't necessarily "bad." The difference is nobody trusts the other three, nor do they forget or deny that those characters have that history. The entire comic world seems to be all "oh Quire became a hero from being a rebellious dickish kid" not "oh yeah he like legit murdered people and stalked a girl and also threatened the UN on national television and tried to blow up Utopia and kill all the X-Men." It's not that Aaron didn't do work on him, it's that his starting point was wildly different from the character before that.

Now your memory of the Morrison stuff is definitely better than mine but he, as Jazz said, on Sublime when he committed his most heinous acts (stalking and actual murder) during that run right? So I think, and just my view, that stuff isn’t as acknowledged because of that fact. When he returned in endsong he wasn’t fully himself again (due to PF) and didn’t murder anybody. But his next appearance as a pawn of the HFC, I don’t see it the same as you I think. In the Schism series (which I remember pretty good I hope cause I loved it), his main problem was his threat and “attack” on the UN. But to be honest, while the consequences were bad, what he did wasn’t “evil” in my mind. And I think that’s why Logan took the interest in him to reform him and that’s how I took that run and how Quire has behaved since. Now yes, he never explicitly apologized and still never really talked it out on-panel with the Cuckoo he basically killed.
So really at this point we’re disagreeing about degrees and both find him interesting.
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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Milkshake08 » 07 Dec 2018, 16:48

He was NOT on SUblime when he attacked Utopia or when he tried to kill the Cuckoos after his resurrection (in revenge cuz he got rejected by their sister...that's messed up). Anywho, I'm tired of arguing about it. I like Quire fine as a character, I just think it's problematic that everyone forgets that he was intended as a villain and kind of an incel-at-the-time stand in, and that persisted after his revival until he was a completely different character when Aaron took over and stripped him of his more sinister aspects.

And token, that's a fair point. I actually really love Martha and I like Beak, too. And Beak was frequently drawn VERY ugly. Marrow has been too, in "not cool" ways. Glob's appearance doesn't bother me, though it's not a terribly good design; it's a solid mass of one color with no dimension to it--it makes the image look flat and stands out poorly with the other characters on the page, like a 2D object with a bunch of 3D ones.

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Re: Uncanny X-men #4

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Dec 2018, 17:05

Fair enough but a non-opinion point: he didn’t attack utopia though. That was the HFC kids (Kade specifically)...Schism #4 and #5.
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