Phoenix (Jean Grey) Original Powers

[Phoenixx9]

Well, somebody needs to tell them that these are not your grandfather's comics!

[Gomurr the Ancient]

e=mc^2 has long been understood as a ruling that matter and energy are the same thing. Put another way, changing matter into energy and back again is no different at its core than any other state conversion, like solid into liquid, or liquid into gas. They are all made of elementary subatomic particles. And while matter is made up of massive particles (protons, electrons, and neutrons) it is held together by massless gluons.

Similarly, it is stated that matter and energy cannot be destroyed in a closed system. Instead one converts to the other (with loss in entropy also considered). So a very powerful telekinetic performing matter manipulation is also manipulating some energy as well.

Right, good points. I think there has been a bit of talking past each other about we meant by "same thing," exacerbated by the rustiness of my physics knowledge and use of some incorrect terms. You're right, matter/energy cannot be destroyed, they're transmutable and so the same in that fashion. But they are different states that have differing attributes, that's what I meant. The point I was trying to articulate is that it doesn't immediately follow that the ability to manipulate an attribute attached to one (mass) translates to being able to manipulate the other.

Disintegration (or the reverse, consolidating free-standing particles into masses) would require manipulation of massless particles, or "energy". Even your average telekinetic has some power over energy, or else your average TK force field would be useless against lasers, optic blasts, or other energy beam assaults.

Honest question - have we seen a telekinetic shield stop a laser? Most 'blasts' in the comics have some kind of matter in them generally - plasma, electrons in lightning, that kinda thing. But you can see through a telekinetic shield, so it doesn't necessarily stop photons. This is veering off topic a bit, but are we suggesting that a TK shield allows photons to pass through for of purposes sight but will stop photons when they're a laser? Does the telekine have to consciously cause it to stop the laser, since it's default couldn't be photon-stopping? Does it then not stop a laser if the telekine doesn't act fast enough or is attacked unawares? And if a telekine can stop photons like lasers, couldn't that same telekine bends light around herself using telekinesis to become invisible (although blind)? Can telekines all become invisible?

The only time I can call to mind where Jean attempted to stop what was clearly just energy with telekinesis was the radiation when piloting the shuttle back to Earth. She did state she had survived longer than Colossus would have, and I take that as Claremont narrating fact through dialogue rather than an issue of an unreliable character perspective, so I'll accept telekinesis as present in Marvel Girl was capable of at least screening (and maybe that extends to actual manipulating, depending on the mechanics of screening) certain amounts of energy. Though I think we may be hitting the edge of where scientific explanations can be applied, if we haven't passed it already.

As for optic blasts... I think if we're discussing the scientific limits of a power, we should probably limit it to forces that originate in our dimension. Though my rough concept of optics blasts is the effectively were lasers that somehow delivered concussive force instead of heat, so the same issues as photons might apply. Anyways, TK shields might not be a great measure for what telekinesis could and could not scientifically do, because I don't know that it scientifically could function like it does in the comics.

Elemental conversion (like turning a tree into gold, or drawing upon free-floating particles to reassemble your human body as it burns up in the sun) requires the separation and reassembly of subatomic particles, both massive and massless, to rearrange nucleon particles into and out of atomic nucleus (in defiance of the strong nuclear force, or massless gluons), and so Phoenix must be capable of manipulating massless particles or energy to achieve her given effects.

Probably true, but (respectfully) inapt. The crux of the question is whether such abilities, which require the ability to manipulate energy, a part of Marvel Girl's telekinesis, and thus Phoenix's powers were all just Jean's the the Nth degree, or whether Phoenix exhibited powers separate from that of Marvel Girl. So the fact that feats she performed as Phoenix exhibit energy manipulation doesn't resolve that. Did she ever do molecular manipulation when not Phoenixing?

Back in the 60's, they confirmed that even early Marvel Girl could telekinetically lift objects while blindfolded, or manipulate the inner workings of locked doors without seeing them directly.

Very good points, though I think they run into the same issue as BC's second point last time. The comics medium doesn't make clear if Jean was perceiving things with telekinesis and lifting them, or saw them, was blindfolded, and then honing her ability to use a mental image of where she knew things were to reach out and manipulate them. Same with the lock - was she feeling out the inside of the lock, or did she see how the lock was constructed and was focusing on manipulating it by visualizing the interior and applying telekinesis? I doubt there's a definitive answer, unless dialogue provided one (and even then - if one issue in the 60s said she could, and one issue in the 00s said she couldn't, what do we make of it?), though I admit these examples are more likely explained as a matter of feeling out things telekinetically. Enough that, despite Jean saying in X-Men 128 she couldn't feel things telekinetically before, I am tentatively convinced that telekinesis includes this to some degree.

Gypsy Moth, or Skein, can perceive objects through her telekinesis. It's part of the reason she only uses her powers against soft materials, because telekinetically touching hard materials with her mind is unpleasant to her. Cable was also able to telekinetically probe people's bodies in order to isolate a virus in their system and extract it. Now, maybe you could argue Cable's TK is derived from Phoenix power levels somehow, but general telekinetic tactile sensitivity is a thing even to non-Phoenix wielders, or CAN be.

Fair enough.

So, this leaves energy manipulation as, in my book... tentative at best. TK shields might exhibit it to some degree, but in a weirdly inconsistent way that makes me hesitant to consider them definitive. And then, of course, there's the energy absorption - it's one thing for Dark Phoenix to be able to control the raw energy of a exploding sun to keep herself safe and such... but to feed off it? I guess maybe one could explain it as channeling a sun's worth of energy directly into the mitochondria and somehow not exploding or something? Though that seems like a stretch. Thoughts?

[Blackcyclops]

In the real world it might not "follow" but in the MU we've seen things pushed to a point where for the very powerful it does. Some beings, like Sersi, are restricted to matter only but then people like Silver Surfer or Blue Marvel can manipulate both as they seem to follow the Einsteinian idea of matter and energy being connected. A very powerful telekinetic is effectively the same way. When one of them creates matter from out of "thin air" they have to be manipulating at least some energy because even if they use "loose" particles some energy has to be used (they're basically doing fusion without the nuclear fallout, that alone means they're doing something with energies lol) or make solid feeling things like armor or spikes, they are manipulating psychic energy. Psychic energy is a form of energy (Handbooks even argued it was on the electromagnetic spectrum) in the MU, so a basic TK is a type of energy manipulator. The difference between them and telepaths is that their manipulation happens on the physical plane (or in the case of Nate Grey and Onslaught, they could bring things from one plane to another utilizing a combo of TK and TP). An extremely powerful telekinetic is an energy manipulator who can use TK fields to manipulate other forms of energy. So energy manipulation is not a separate power from telekinesis (high level energy-matter manipulators like Galactus and such are basically described as having telekinesis btw).

All Telekinetics can't bend light but some can (just as we've seen telekinetics deflect lasers and other types of forcefield users deflect photonic energy like Genis-Vel used). That in and of itself answers your question. Somehow telekinetics can perceive the different between different types of light and gauge which to let through and which to filter out. Same way old Superboy used tactile telekinesis to gauge differences in other types of matter (Incidentally Nate Grey used tactile telekinesis, so as Monolith said in his examples with Gypsy Moth, these are capabilities of some psychics).

MU science has different rules than real world science. Gravity, for example, in the real world has not been "proven" to have a base particle but in the MU gravitons are the photons/atoms of gravity. And any manipulator of that energy is in someway manipulating gravitons (Magneto flies by somehow manipulating them as the handbooks would say). So any time a TK makes things fly they're interacting with gravitons for example.

At this point I just don't really know your argument Gormurr. Are you saying that manipulating energy is beyond the capabilities of or distinctly different from telekinesis? Because from what the evidence Mono and I displayed, I just can't see how that argument stands. In the MU a powerful TK like Nate Grey, Cable or the JeanGrey-Phoenix can use telekinesis to manipulate matter (things with mass) and energy (mass-less things).

[Nu-D]

Star gate - recall she didn't create a star gate, but merely powered up the existing one placed in the solar system by the Shi'ar. Telekinetically manipulating the operating system, feeding raw energy into it, boom boom done.

I just reread DPS, and thought of this thread. This is not correct. When she leaves Earth and just before she consumes D'Bari, she creates her own wormhole or stargate or something from nothing.

Also interesting, as she leaves Earth she drops down toward the sun, and uses the sun's gravity as a slingshot to get out into space. The dialogue tells us that in a matter of "seconds" she's in the "vast emptiness of interstellar space," which I take to mean she's outside the Oort cloud, or at least beyond the orbit of Pluto.

Now given that it takes the light of the sun seven minutes to reach the earth, that means Jean was already travelling hundreds or thousands of times faster than the speed of light, even before she created the wormhole. Pretty damn impressive for a girl from Annondale-on-Hudson.

[Phoenixx9]

Yup, you are correct Nu-D.

DP used what scientists call the "sling-shot effect" to use the sun's massive gravity to multiply her speed while exiting her from the galaxy and most likely, way beyond the Oort Cloud.

DP also displayed a massive Phoenix Effect, as the Phoenix covered the entire sky! I don't think that she ever manifested one so huge. And she called down lightning said to brighter than the sun itself directly onto herself to amp up her energy.

[Monolith]

Man, you guys are right. I had to go back and look at the Classic X-Men reprint, thinking it was one of the little details that series changed from the original, but nope, even there it said she created a stargate herself.

I wonder where I got that from...

[Phoenixx9]

Hey, no problem, Monolith.

We are all here to help each other!

I am not sure where you got that idea....

Yeah, I kind of know some parts of the Jean Grey/Phoenix story well.

Phoenix was probably the most powerful psi to have ever existed.

While others say Onslaught or Nate Grey, I don't think either one has ever done the Stargate creation.

Merry Christmas!

[Nu-D]

Man, you guys are right. I had to go back and look at the Classic X-Men reprint, thinking it was one of the little details that series changed from the original, but nope, even there it said she created a stargate herself.

I wonder where I got that from...

I think she powered up a Stargate in the first Shi'ar story, to take the X-Men and L'landra to stop D'ken.

Edit: yep, it's at the end of the fight with Firestorm, following Erik the Red and L'landra through. Classic X-Men #13 or Uncanny X-Men #105

The original Uncanny run follows-up with a filler issue where the new X-Men fight the originals in one of Xavier's dreams. It's pretty bad, and of course we just saw that fight four issues earlier. I'm not surprised the Classic reprints skipped that issue.

[Phoenixx9]

I think she powered up a Stargate in the first Shi'ar story, to take the X-Men and L'landra to stop D'ken.

Edit: yep, it's at the end of the fight with Firestorm, following Erik the Red and L'landra through. Classic X-Men #13 or Uncanny X-Men #105

I think you mean Firelord. (Firestorm is a DC character, lol.)

Yup, Jeannie/Phoenix did power up the Stargate saying "Calm down, Professor! Things aren't that bad yet. Phoenix has enough power to get us there at least!"

[LimboMaster]

Back in the 60's, they confirmed that even early Marvel Girl could telekinetically lift objects while blindfolded, or manipulate the inner workings of locked doors without seeing them directly.

Gypsy Moth, or Skein, can perceive objects through her telekinesis. It's part of the reason she only uses her powers against soft materials, because telekinetically touching hard materials with her mind is unpleasant to her. Cable was also able to telekinetically probe people's bodies in order to isolate a virus in their system and extract it. Now, maybe you could argue Cable's TK is derived from Phoenix power levels somehow, but general telekinetic tactile sensitivity is a thing even to non-Phoenix wielders, or CAN be.

I just ran across this old discussion about TK and it reminded me of Grant Morrison's focus on this aspect of Jean's TK during his run on X-Men, namely that she could 'feel' objects she was manipulating with TK. I remember Fanotomex was involved in the story and Jean was manipulating spoons and either Fantomex or Professor X was marveling that Jean should not be able to feel him pressing on the spoons she was manipulating, but she was able to. This was just as Jean was starting to manifest the Phoenix and he seemed to be attributing this distinction of sensory experience through TK as something special about her power or the Phoenix. This struck me as particularly interesting and has always stuck in my mind. Granted this could just have been a Morrison thing and have no broader basis than his pointing it out, but do we know if there is any officially recognized distinction between TK users who can manipulate objects only (i.e., feed-forward control) vs. TK users who can manipulate and feel/perceive objects (i.e., feed-forward AND feedback) and whether there is any significance to this distinction. I'm also curious if there are any examples of just feedback (meaning where someone can 'feel' their environment without being in direct contact with it, but can't manipulate it). Mono, you pointed out a few examples above of the latter suggesting that it's not just limited to Phoenix, but I'm just wondering if this distinction has been a point of focus anywhere else in the Marvel Universe besides Morrison's run on X-Men and, if so, what if any significance there may be to the distinction. Is there anything that suggests that it's a distinction in type of power, power levels, training, or anything else or is it simply sometimes just mentioned by writers but has never really been flushed out beyond that?

[das_boot]

It wasn’t just that she could feel him touching the spoons, it was that she could feel his pulse through them... Jean had been showing massive increases in her telekinetic abilities (lest we forget, she’d just had them returned to her following the death of Psylocke, who had been using Jean’s telekinesis due to being unable to access her telepathy because she was holding the Shadow King prisoner). Her TK had come back at an increased level and she was exhibiting not only a higher degree of fine control, but also levels of raw power that were previously only exhibited by the Phoenix. She was also manifesting the Phoenix raptor on several occasions. This test wasn’t just to show off her fine motor control, but based on knowledge Xavier had of the Shi’ar’s mythology of the Phoenix, he knew that such a level of sensitivity (Jean feeling sensations through objects she was manipulating telekinetically) was a sign that she was perhaps wielding Phoenix power-levels again. She was even (an issue or two earlier or later) able to determine that the molecular composition of a bullet aimed at Xavier wasn’t from Earth. Other than demonstrating that Jean’s telekinesis wasn’t just growing in power, but also sensitivity. If you look at previous examples given in this thread, you can usually see that sensitivity comes at the expense of raw power (Gypsy Moth/Skein) whilst raw power often comes at the cost of fine control (Psylocke “I CAN SHATTER MOUNTAINS BUT CAN’T PICK UP A PENNY”, Hellion after his power’s increased and he lost his hands), but a combination of the two is usually a symptom of having been exposed to the Phoenix (Jean, Rachel...)

[LimboMaster]

Very interesting. Just the sort of distinction I was curious about. Thanks das. I hope this subtlety isn't lost with later writers. It's such a Morrison thing to pick up on. Love it.