Phoenix (Jean Grey) Original Powers

[Phoenixx9]

When Phoenix (Jean Grey) first appeared in X-Men comics, ( now retconned to be the Phoenix Force in Jean's form), it appeared that she had different powers: powers "backed by the sun itself", "Black Flames with mystical allusions" and energy blasts.

It also seemed as if Jean had two distinct forms and needed to transform into her Phoenix-form in order to use her powers. The Phoenix form had a red face, white eyes and long, wild hair.

So just what were that Jean's powers?

Did the Phoenix powers change over time?

Were these additional powers that we just have not seen since her debut?

[Monolith]

The Phoenix Force, under amnesia, believed itself to be Jean Grey. Consequently, it inaccurately assumed the "Phoenix power" came from the cosmic radiation storm Jean flew the shuttle through, similar to how the Fantastic Four received powers from a similar space flight. Phoenix therefore defined and described her powers in terms that would later be revealed to be false. Phoenix did not demonstrate any powers that could not be explained through enhanced telepathy and telekinesis. There were no "additional" powers beyond that, and Phoenix's powers did not change over time, other than the established period of her powers growing, being subconsciously by Jean after the M'Kraan incident, and then growing again after Mastermind tampered with those psychic blocks.

[Gomurr the Ancient]

I'm confused. I thought Phoenix definitely possessed some non-TP & TK abilities, at least once she went Dark Phoenix. I mean, she survived in the vacuum of space, opened a star gate, and consumed a star. That seems a bit much to explain away with TK, no? At the very least she didn't need to breathe air and she was able to consume energy from an exploding star, which would seem to suggest some alternative processes for creating and transferring energy.

[tokenBG1009]

I imagine you could explain away a lot of things with TP/TK. The energy absorbing being the most difficult. Surviving in the vacuum of space? Just tell the body it doesn't need oxygen anymore. She's also been said to affect things on a subatomic level, or something of that sort. She could've used TK to destroy the star/change it into something else.

[Monolith]

Vacuum travel - regulating heat and pressure are easy since those are controlled by molecules or molecular activity. To breathe, she either maintained a compressed supply of oxygen inside her Phoenix aura, or assembled O2 molecules from cosmic particles in the ether.

Star gate - recall she didn't create a star gate, but merely powered up the existing one placed in the solar system by the Shi'ar. Telekinetically manipulating the operating system, feeding raw energy into it, boom boom done.

Absorbing energy - Did she? I'm seriously asking, because no explanation from "I'm evil Jean" to "I'm the Phoenix Force" ever explained why she would need to absorb energy from a star. Nor did she demonstrate any power boost from the energy she allegedly absorbed, either. The best understanding I've read is that she was more focused with killing D'Bari than eating the star. Remember the Phoenix Force is the cosmic embodiment of life and death, and so all lifeforce comes from the Phoenix at birth, and then returns to it at death. So, by destroying the star, Phoenix killed the D'Bari, and all their billions of lifeforce returned to the Phoenix, empowering her.

[Blackcyclops]

At the farthest reaches, TK is essentially matter control insofar as you can finely manipulate matter (which also includes energy) at the some of the most fundamental levels.

[jesse james]

@mono:
Did Jean (later on when whe went Phoenixy on her own), Rachel or X-Man ever demonstrate such abilities. 'cause I am under the impression that neither Jean nor Rachel were ever as strong as the impersonating Force.

On a related matter': what is Rachel's level nowadays?

[RingOtaku]

During Claremont's last Uncanny X-Men run Rachel was shown being able to manipulate her own DNA to start becoming reptilian against her will. Thus molecular telekinesis.

[Phoenixx9]

Absorbing energy - Did she? I'm seriously asking, because no explanation from "I'm evil Jean" to "I'm the Phoenix Force" ever explained why she would need to absorb energy from a star. Nor did she demonstrate any power boost from the energy she allegedly absorbed, either. The best understanding I've read is that she was more focused with killing D'Bari than eating the star.

I think after defeating the X-Men, flying into space and creating a wormhole into the Shi'ar galaxy, "Jean"/DarkPhoenix states that she is ravenous and needs to refuel. And at that point states something like "This star will do nicely". She wasn't trying to commit genocide, just refuel. A major point held against her after the fact is that she didn't even consider all the planets and possible life revolving around that star.

I remember thinking how inaccurate that she would need to consume the power of a star to refuel since she never did before that point. She also had not expended that much energy prior to that time.

The explanation I read was that the star repowering was required because it was the PF in human form. While giving the Force some aspects of humanity, it was still a Cosmic being. In its natural state, the PF could and would feed off a star to replenish energy. Even in human form, it still had this need.

I don't agree with that thinking and believe it to be a plot device that was planned for Dark Phoenix's demise. A few issues later, she had to pay for consuming the star.

Another power usage by Phoenix/Dark Phoenix was weather control. She could create her own effects and hurled lightning bolts that she created at Storm. She also easily dispersed Storm's weather such as fog, clouds, thunder and lightning.

[Blackcyclops]

That's still explainable with telekinesis.

Telekinesis is, and I hate using this term cause I think it's overused, a deus ex machina. A uber-powerful telekinetic could theoretically manipulate matter at every level, Thus capable of almost any other superpower just about.

You combine it with a god-like telepath and there are like few things beyond their reach.

[Phoenixx9]

The Jean/Phoenix Force also seemed to fire energy bolts and withstood the cosmic energy blasts of Galactus' Herald Firelord.

Jean/PF also seemed to possess some level of enhanced strength against Beast, Colossus and Wolverine as well as Gladiator.

[Blackcyclops]

Could all be telekinesis

[tokenBG1009]

I feel like that's really the end all answer here. Telekinesis is a power that with enough creativity lets you do whatever you want.

Superboy's super strength and invulnerability were once, possibly still are, attributed to telekinesis.

[Blackcyclops]

Yeah Connor post nu52 did but current Superboy is like Supes

[InsipidLust]

Absorbing energy - Did she? I'm seriously asking, because no explanation from "I'm evil Jean" to "I'm the Phoenix Force" ever explained why she would need to absorb energy from a star. Nor did she demonstrate any power boost from the energy she allegedly absorbed, either. The best understanding I've read is that she was more focused with killing D'Bari than eating the star.

I think after defeating the X-Men, flying into space and creating a wormhole into the Shi'ar galaxy, "Jean"/DarkPhoenix states that she is ravenous and needs to refuel. And at that point states something like "This star will do nicely". She wasn't trying to commit genocide, just refuel. A major point held against her after the fact is that she didn't even consider all the planets and possible life revolving around that star.

I remember thinking how inaccurate that she would need to consume the power of a star to refuel since she never did before that point. She also had not expended that much energy prior to that time.

The explanation I read was that the star repowering was required because it was the PF in human form. While giving the Force some aspects of humanity, it was still a Cosmic being. In its natural state, the PF could and would feed off a star to replenish energy. Even in human form, it still had this need.

Well, I just reread the DPS on the train a few days ago so this is all fresh in my mind.

Phoenix states as she's nearing the D'Bari star system that she's tired from several lightyears of space flight (something we hadn't seen her do too much of before this IIRC) and everything else that preceded that. She further clarifies that she's tired and has this need because to some extent she is still human. She states "my power is not limitless, yet"--signaling that her humanity is likely the energy limitation she's experiencing here; the Phoenix itself, destroyer and creator that it is, probably didn't need the star. Jean did. One could argue based on her observation that her powers were still limited but eventually going to be unlimited that only once Jean achieved the total erosion of her humanity would she be able to manage such feats without tapping into energy sources like stars (because we all know the Phoenix's energy source is something different entirely based on future stories).

In its natural state, the Phoenix's energy is vast (but not limitless) IIRC because it taps into the life force of all life that is, was or will be (and mostly the latter). In Jean's early Phoenix and Dark Phoenix form, remember that he power waxed and waned pretty regularly--likely a limitation of Jean's humanity and not the cosmic force itself. Consuming the star was Jean's way of circumventing this in a dark moment.

Of course, all of this is later complicated by the idea that "Phoenix" was just mimicking Jean, but for the sake of the original story as it was originally conceived, Jean was limited by her humanity.

[Phoenixx9]

OK, so I was half right on this?

The Phoenix/Jean entity needed the star to refuel. It was because the Phoenix Force was in human form, but due to the human part, not the cosmic part. Right?

And the only time we ever saw this was because that was the only time we have witnessed the PF taking on a human form as it's own.

[Gomurr the Ancient]

I'm still not sure I buy that everything Phoenix/Jean did can be explained solely with telepathy and telekinesis. Quite a bit can, no doubt, but there are some things that seem to require more. Monolith, your explanation for maintaining heat and an air supply in the vacuum, I'm not sure that works. Heat is the transmission of energy. Energy, unlike matter, doesn't have mass. Telekinesis is the manipulation of matter at a distance from oneself - and as moving objects of more mass has consistently been portrayed as more difficult than moving objects of less mass, it seems reasonable to say that it is the manipulation of matter by means of exerting force against its mass. I don't know why should would be able to prevent herself from freezing to death... Maybe one could argue that the Phoenix aura contained atmosphere, and Jean caused the molecules of that to move rapidly enough to generate heat. That seems plausible enough.

But then we get to the consuming a star for energy. It's one thing to say Jean could generate energy with TK, by rapidly moving air molecules to generate heat, and by disrupting a star, or any matter, at a subatomic level to release energy with a fission reaction... but how does TK allow her to take destructive energy, which TK should not effect, and absorb it to fuel herself? This isn't a heat or flame blast in atmosphere, which TK could divert by redirecting the heated air, or a concussive blast which TK could counter by lashing out at it with equal but oppositely directed force, or plasma, which is a state of matter (though I'm sure there was plenty of that). There's massive amounts of matter-less energy released in such an explosion, including radiation that would destroy a physical form.

On the air supply, sure, she could have brought some air with her, even compressed... but my understanding is she was in space for quite some time. The vacuum probably doesn't have enough particulate matter to gather it and transform it into a sufficient air supply, but maybe she was able to transform the CO2 she expired back into good old O2 to keep breathing.

But then that gets to how the hell Jean can perceive atoms and subatomic molecules with such clarity that she can pull them apart and put them back together as something else. Telepathy? That's the ability to read minds and such. Atomic particles shouldn't register on that. More than once she performs feats of molecular transformation, but neither telepathy nor telekinesis should give her the ability to perceive the atoms and molecules that she reshapes. At the very least she seems to have powers of perception beyond her TP and TK.

[Phoenixx9]

At the very least she seems to have powers of perception beyond her TP and TK.

Now that you mention it, I remember reading an article from Marvel back when Phoenix appeared, stating she had enhanced psychic senses.

I guess that would be similar to what Xavier demonstrates in the movies, knowing things that are going on outside the room he is in, that someone had left the mansion, etc.?

Later, after Jean returned, the PF in Jean's form was said to have cosmic senses as well as cosmic abilities, since it was a cosmic entity.

When the Dark Phoenix defeated all the X-Men, as she left the Earth, there was such an enormous burst of energy that many different characters took notice, among them: Reed Richards ( who said this power rivals Galactus), Dr Strange, Spider-Man and Silver Surfer. Other versions show Thor and Eternity noticing. I don't think any of these individuals would notice psychic energy, but they would cosmic or pure destructive energies...

Dr Strange states that he notices great mystical powers and the Silver Surfer, another non-psychic character, not only notices Jean, but thinks she is a kindred soul, so like him...

All of these examples demonstrate that either are they were going with a cosmic idea for Phoenix, a ix of psychic plus cosmic or they just weren't sure...

[Blackcyclops]

Well matter and energy are one and the same (sorta) give Einsteinian physics. And as it's besn shown, beings with complete control over one (like Galactus) has control over the other. If telekinesis is the use of psychic energy (which old MU handbooks even put on the electromagnetic spectrum) to manipulate matter (I mean telekinetics move things they aren't looking at sometimes, so clearly normal perception isn't a concern), so if matter and energy are so related, the most powerful of telekinetic can manipulate energy as well. Not to mention that in the MU every form of energy (with the possible exception of "cosmic" or interdimensional energy) has some fundamental unit (gravitons, photons,etc) then a high order TK would be manipulating those units.

Then since TP is the specific manipulation of psychic energy, at the uttermost level perception of things like cosmic awareness can be explained through that.

Really all energy manipulators (at least those manipulating external energies) are telekinetics, just specific to a certain type of energy. And anything that allows a person to perceive things between our "normal" senses (the big five, heat, balance, etc) is just a finely tuned form of telepathy.

[InsipidLust]

Further, for those who think that Jean's ability to perceive and alter molecular structures is problematic -- an answer for why she was able to do that was provided many years later in Grant Morrison's New X-Men #128, when Charles Xavier is testing Jean's ability with the silverware and comments that he believes a Phoenix manifestation is imminent based on Jean Grey's remarkably developed "telekinetic sensitivity"--the ability to "feel" the molecular composition of the objects she's dealing with.

Not to mention, even back during Chris Claremont's run, Chris played fast and loose with molecular transmutation anyway.

[Gomurr the Ancient]

Sorry for resurrecting the dead, but I've been super busy and haven't had time to keep up with the board. Somehow my first year as a lawyer is even more time consuming that law school was, which I did not think was possible.

Anyways, BC - what? Ok, I'm no physicist, and I know you're not either, but I am pretty sure Einstein never indicated Matter and Energy were the same thing even sort of. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that Einstein showed that a physical system (any given amount of matter) contained energy equal to the mass of that system multiplied by the speed of light, squared. While the destruction of matter releases a precise amount of energy, matter and energy have distinct properties - the most notable of which is mass. Matter has it, energy doesn't. Things that effect mass effect matter, but not energy. Telekinesis has been repeatedly shown to act upon mass - things that have more mass require more telekinetic power to move. Anyone who actually understands relativistic physics please feel free to correct me - I haven't taken a physics class since undergrad, and sadly Neil DeGrasse Tyson didn't show up to explain this to me just now when I said his name three times in a row.

As for telekines moving things they aren't looking at - I don't know there's any indication they are aware of things they can't perceive rather than simply moving things they perceived earlier and are not looking at that second. The comics medium certainly doesn't present an easy answer to this - if we see Jean gathering objects from all sides, the comic page won't show if she quickly scanned the room grabbing things as she saw them and pulled them in, or saw all these things when she entered the room and then grabbed them telekinetically because she knew they were their (much like one grabs something behind oneself without looking) or if she has some kind of TK awareness allowing her to pinpoint things around her - though I would think the last is somewhat ruled out by the fact that such a thing is never mentioned, she doesn't appear to have total situational awareness when her TP was out at various times in comics, and that such an awareness would constitute a power in its own right similar to Daredevil's. Point is, I don't pretend I have a means of definitively proving that your second point is incorrect, but I doubt there's any way you could prove your point either.

IL - interesting point on Morrison. It's always hard to sustain an argument on an isolated instance, though, especially in a medium as full of various instances as comics. Additionally, I have my misgivings about Morrison's grasp of the Phoenix Force (and the X-Men in general). He largely seemed to just be treating it as a level of power Jean could attain rather than an separate entity and external source of power. That aside, though, in #128 Jean feels the silverware telekinetically as her hair is increasingly appearing like fire and says that she didn't know she could do that. This to me would indicate that telekentic perceptions like this were not the norm for her. Xavier explains that such senses are called a Phoenix manifestation by the Shi'ar, and then in black voice bubbles with white text, Jean states to Xavier that she is the Phoenix and Jean is only the house in which she resides. Just based on this comic, I'm inclined to think that the ability to perceive through telekinesis, particularly at a molecular level, is distinctly tied to the Phoenix. You may read it differently, but I respectfully remain unconvinced as of yet.

[Monolith]

e=mc^2 has long been understood as a ruling that matter and energy are the same thing. Put another way, changing matter into energy and back again is no different at its core than any other state conversion, like solid into liquid, or liquid into gas. They are all made of elementary subatomic particles. And while matter is made up of massive particles (protons, electrons, and neutrons) it is held together by massless gluons.

Disintegration (or the reverse, consolidating free-standing particles into masses) would require manipulation of massless particles, or "energy". Even your average telekinetic has some power over energy, or else your average TK force field would be useless against lasers, optic blasts, or other energy beam assaults. Elemental conversion (like turning a tree into gold, or drawing upon free-floating particles to reassemble your human body as it burns up in the sun) requires the separation and reassembly of subatomic particles, both massive and massless, to rearrange nucleon particles into and out of atomic nucleus (in defiance of the strong nuclear force, or massless gluons), and so Phoenix must be capable of manipulating massless particles or energy to achieve her given effects.

Back in the 60's, they confirmed that even early Marvel Girl could telekinetically lift objects while blindfolded, or manipulate the inner workings of locked doors without seeing them directly.

Gypsy Moth, or Skein, can perceive objects through her telekinesis. It's part of the reason she only uses her powers against soft materials, because telekinetically touching hard materials with her mind is unpleasant to her. Cable was also able to telekinetically probe people's bodies in order to isolate a virus in their system and extract it. Now, maybe you could argue Cable's TK is derived from Phoenix power levels somehow, but general telekinetic tactile sensitivity is a thing even to non-Phoenix wielders, or CAN be.

[Blackcyclops]

Similarly, it is stated that matter and energy cannot be destroyed in a closed system. Instead one converts to the other (with loss in entropy also considered). So a very powerful telekinetic performing matter manipulation is also manipulating some energy as well.

[Phoenixx9]

Very interesting!

Lots of good science going on here, and it explains a lot!

Who said comics were just for kids?

[Rincewind]

Who said comics were just for kids?

Primarily people who haven't read a comic in years, and are convinced that they're still stuck in the Silver Age. (We get it, Aquaman talks to fish; find a new joke!)

Angry rant ends.