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Selene and Apocalypse

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Red Strings
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Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Red Strings » 22 Oct 2019, 22:24

Has Selene had any kind of contact with Apocalypse ever and, if so, around which titles/issues? For some reason in my head I feel like they might have but I'm also not sure if I'm getting mixed up with something else.

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Nu-D
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Nu-D » 22 Oct 2019, 23:54

Red Strings wrote:
22 Oct 2019, 22:24
Has Selene had any kind of contact with Apocalypse ever and, if so, around which titles/issues? For some reason in my head I feel like they might have but I'm also not sure if I'm getting mixed up with something else.
BITD there was some effort to shoehorn them both into the Externals with Gideon, et al. Not sure how much of that was canon, and how much was on the backs of trading cards and data pages.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by tokenBG1009 » 23 Oct 2019, 12:09

Think Apocalypse was definitely mentioned to be one. That was why Cable wanted Cannonball beneath his wing. I'm not 100% sure on Selene, but I believe she was debunked as one because her immortality came from draining the life of others.
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Monolith
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Monolith » 23 Oct 2019, 12:53

Selene was definitively an External in the last Cable arc that dealt with them. Apocalypse and Cannonball were not. (For Selene, I'd theorize her YOUTH is because of her power, while her immortality still comes from being an External.)

But, to the question at hand: No, I can't recall Selene and Apocalypse even being in the same room until House of X #5.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by tokenBG1009 » 23 Oct 2019, 14:41

I may be mixing up Selene and Apocalypse then. I remember one of them being disregarded because their extended life span was due to outside factors and not just mutant immortality.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

Red Strings
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Red Strings » 23 Oct 2019, 15:57

Thanks guys, I was just trying to rack my brain because, in theory, I don't understand why they haven't met. In my mind they would be a dream power duo.

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InsipidLust
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by InsipidLust » 28 Oct 2019, 17:47

Just adding that Selene's status as an External has never been questioned in-universe.

I don't think it's been discussed at length for Apocalypse but I can't recall.

Sam's status as an external has been questioned (and derided) by Selene.
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Dr House
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Dr House » 10 Nov 2019, 15:56

Sam's Status has been questioned only by Selene.

The other Externals have said that Apocalypse is one of them (in X-Force #37 and issues of Gambit's 3rd volume). He's been referred to as an "External High Lord" at several points.
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Lavettye
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Lavettye » 10 Nov 2019, 17:10

Cable also said that Cannonball being an External was just a rumor in Cable #151.
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Dr House
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Dr House » 25 Nov 2019, 13:18

Lavettye wrote:
10 Nov 2019, 17:10
Cable also said that Cannonball being an External was just a rumor in Cable #151.
I take that with a grain of salt since Cable tends to frequently lie (his paternity regarding Tyler is one example).

Cannonball now once again no longer being an External does not explain how he was resurrected when Sauron killed him in X-Force #7 or how the other Externals sensed his "awakening" in X-Force #10.
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Lavettye
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Lavettye » 25 Nov 2019, 14:28

Well, we have one storyline stating he is an External, and two later storylines saying he ain't, though with next to no explanation for the things you mentioned. On the other hand, Cannonball not being an External at least explains why Selene didn't go after him when she killed all the other Externals, or why he didn't sense the passing & return of the others.

"But he's not" is probably one of the weakest retcons ever, only surpassed by retcons that outright contradict the original story. I don't mean it as in the retcon alters/changes the original story, (that's the very definition of a retcon) but when the retcon claims to be fixing/altering something from the original story which isn't in the original story. Case in point: Nicieaza introduced Revanche to explain how Psylocke got the asian body after emerging from the Siege Perilous, as he apparently didn't know that Caucasian Betsy was found amnesiac by the Hand in UXM #256 and then got transformed in #257. He only knew of UXM #257 and thought he had some backstory to fill. And then he had to re-retcon his own scene of Kwannon's and Betsy's accidental mind-meld.
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Dr House
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Dr House » 25 Nov 2019, 15:22

Lavettye wrote:
25 Nov 2019, 14:28
Well, we have one storyline stating he is an External, and two later storylines saying he ain't, though with next to no explanation for the things you mentioned. On the other hand, Cannonball not being an External at least explains why Selene didn't go after him when she killed all the other Externals, or why he didn't sense the passing & return of the others.

"But he's not" is probably one of the weakest retcons ever, only surpassed by retcons that outright contradict the original story. I don't mean it as in the retcon alters/changes the original story, (that's the very definition of a retcon) but when the retcon claims to be fixing/altering something from the original story which isn't in the original story. Case in point: Nicieaza introduced Revanche to explain how Psylocke got the asian body after emerging from the Siege Perilous, as he apparently didn't know that Caucasian Betsy was found amnesiac by the Hand in UXM #256 and then got transformed in #257. He only knew of UXM #257 and thought he had some backstory to fill. And then he had to re-retcon his own scene of Kwannon's and Betsy's accidental mind-meld.
When Selene killed off the other Externals, she remarked that only she and another remain. At the time, I thought the other could've been Cannonball or Apocalypse (The other Externals held a pact of avoiding En Sabah Nur). But then a friend mentioned Candra, but she was thought dead at the time.

And I remember that. The Revanche/Psylocke retcon happened all because Nicieza didn't fully read the original story of Psylocke's transformation.
"You come at the king, you best not miss."

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Lavettye
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Lavettye » 25 Nov 2019, 16:00

When Selene mentioned that only "one other" was left, X-Force assumed she was refering to Cannonball, to which she then responded that Cable had lied about Sam being an External in the first place. It's both in the same issue (X-Force #54) and the same person making these claims, so you either accept them both as fact or you both file them under dubious, not credible witness.

Anyway, Candra is obviously the "other one" Selene was talking about there. She had previously appeared in the Gambit mini series, an issue of X-Men Unlimited, got mentioned in X-Force #37 and then appeared in the 1995 Rogue miniseries. I don't know why she would have been assumed dead at this point. X-Force #54 was released in May 1996. The issue in which Candra dies is X-Men (2nd series) #61, from February 1997.
Last edited by Lavettye on 25 Nov 2019, 20:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Dr House
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Re: Selene and Apocalypse

Post by Dr House » 25 Nov 2019, 18:15

Lavettye wrote:
25 Nov 2019, 16:00
When Selene mentioned that only "only one other" was left, X-Force assumed she was refering to Cannonball, to which she then responded that Cable had lied about Sam being an External in the first place. It's both in the same issue (X-Force #54) and the same person making these claims, so you either accept them both as fact or you both file them under dubious, not credible witness.

Anyway, Candra is obviously the "other one" Selene was talking about there. She had previously appered in the Gambit mini series, an issue of X-Men Unlimited, got mentioned in X-Force #37 and then appeared in the 1995 Rogue miniseries. I don't know why she would have been assumed dead at this point. X-Force #54 was released in May 1996. The issue in which Candra dies is X-Men (2nd series) #61, from February 1997.
Because of the X-Men Unlimited #7 issue from December 1994, that's what made me think she was dead (I confused that with the X-Men #61 issue).
"You come at the king, you best not miss."

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