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Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

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Quick and Dead
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Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Quick and Dead » 26 Mar 2019, 19:27

I came across the following sentence in Mastermind's wikipedia page.

"...He unbalances Rogue's shared psyche with Carol Danvers, prompting her to leave Mystique, while using an induced nightmare on Mystique to let her know he is responsible."

While I remembered Mastermind giving Mystique a nightmare before Rogue leaving, I never thought it implied that he caused Rogue's difficulties with Carol's psyche but I looked back at the issue and sure enough, he does seem to take credit for it...
Screen Shot 2019-03-26 at 12.15.07 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-03-26 at 12.15.07 PM.png (1.23 MiB) Viewed 884 times
Was Mastermind ever brought up again in relation to Rogue's struggles with Carol's psyche? Should we let Mastermind take credit for this?
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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Nu-D » 26 Mar 2019, 20:06

Interesting.

Mastermind's manipulation of Rogue and Mystique does not arise again as a relevant plot point in From the Ashes. Given that Mystique's dream involved being hunted by Lady Jean Grey and Jason Wyngarde, I have always thought it was a plot point Claremont either dropped from that story, or never developed because Jean herself was resurrected. AFAIK, Claremont never mentioned Raven's nightmare again during his tenure on Uncanny.

If this plot was ever developed, it was by someone else or in a satellite title.

In fact, as I'm sitting here, I can't remember Mastermind himself ever appearing again under Claremont's pen.

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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Nu-D » 26 Mar 2019, 20:16

Here's a complete list of his appearances from the Marvel Chronology Project, with my annotations in bold:

MASTERMIND/JASON WYNGARDE
XF 243-FB.
{X 4 (1 - 22)}
X:L 209-FB
X 4 (23)
X 5 (1 - 22:5)
X 37 (15:5)-FB
X 5 (22:6 - 24)
UACC 3
UACC 4
X 6
A 401-FB
JIM 109
X 37 (15:6)-FB
X 7
X 8
XGS 1-FB
X3 12-FB
X3 13-FB
X3 14-FB
X3 15-FB
X 11
X 26-BTS
TB 33 (13:2 - 13:5)-FB
X 37
X 38-BTS
X 39
X 59
X 60 (1 - 3)
A 102-FB-BTS
A 103 (5:2)-FB-BTS
X 60 (9)
A 103 (5:3 - 6:4)-FB
X:HY 10-BTS
X:HY 11
X:HY 12
X:HY 13
X:HY 14
AA2 12
AA2 13
TB 33 (14:3 - 15:1)-FB
CA 174
CA 175
DEF 15
DEF 16
X 104-FB-BTS
CHMPS 17-FB-BTS
XU2 6-FB
X 125 (4:2 - 4:4)-FB
X 125 (8:4)-FB
CX 24/2 (1 - 2)-BTS
CX 24 (7) ~ CX 24/2 (3)
CX 24/2 (4 - 12)
X 125 (8:5)-FB
X 122
X 125
X 126
X 129 (1 - 6)
CX 34/2
X 129 (7 - 17)
X 130
X 132
X 133
X 134--Dark Phoenix Saga conclusion
XU 33/4
COH 2--A 1997 comic called "Code of Honor"
X 135-BTS
UX 169-BTS
UX 170-BTS
UX 172
UX 173
UX 174
UX 175--From the Ashes conclusion
1985 6-BTS--I guess in 2008 there was a comic titled "1985" and he was "behind the scenes," meaning he didn't appear but his actions affected the story.
WOM/ 1/3--I guess there was a 2011 comic called "Women of Marvel" and he was in it.
XCAL 26
UX@ 17-FB--This is a flashback in Uncanny Annual #17
UX@ 17

So there are a few modern stories where some explanation may have been given. There may also be something about it in Excalibut #26, or Uncanny Annual #17. I'll see what I can find there.

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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Nu-D » 26 Mar 2019, 20:23

Neither Excalibur nor Uncanny Annual #17 have any relevant plot points. Nor does X-Men Unlimited #33.

If it was ever clarified it happened in one of those modern issues, or in a comic where Rogue and Raven discuss it without Mastermind being part of the story at all.

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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Quick and Dead » 28 Mar 2019, 06:37

Thanks for your research efforts, Nu-D! Until proven otherwise, I'm gonna take it as Mastermind being delusional about his efforts. Using his powers to even cause Carol's psyche to show up the way it eventually does would take quite a lot of manipulating on his part, similar to what he did to Jean.
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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Nu-D » 28 Mar 2019, 20:08

FWIW, I think the Wikipedia quote is unsupported by the scenes in question. First, Raven doesn’t know Mastermind is behind the nightmare, and in fact Destiny suggests Xavier may be responsible. So if Masterminds goal was to “let her know who’s responsible,” he failed. Indeed, I think the only reason the readers know it’s Mastermind is because the dream parallels some of Jean’s hallucinations. I don’t think the text or art is ever explicit that Mastermind did it. Unless Raven knew the content of Jeans hallucinations, she’d have no way to tie that dream to Mastermind.

Second, though Mastermind is said in that caption to be “responsible” for Rogue leaving, that doesn’t say he unbalanced her psyche. He may have done any number of other things to make her decide to leave.

Perhaps there’s text elsewhere to support the Wikipedia quote’s thesis, but I don’t know of it.

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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Lavettye » 28 Mar 2019, 22:49

It seems to relate to an intended but only partially released storyline from the first Ms. Marvel series, which was also written by Claremont at the time. Starting with issue #25, there was supposed to be a longer arc spanning several issues about a three- or even four-sided conflict between Ms. Marvel, Mystique's Brotherhood, the Hellfire Club and Mastermind. Unfortunately, Ms. Marvel was cancelled with #23 due to bad sales, but Claremont kept treating it, as if the story had been released. For instance, in UXM #209 Rogue thinks about a previous battle between her and Sebastian Shaw which occured before she joined the X-Men. This also seems to refer to this unreleased storyline.

In 1992, over 10 years after Ms. Marvel's cancellation, the finished pages of Ms. Marvel #24 and #25 were published in #10 and #11 of the anthology series Marvel Super Heroes. #24 was a battle against Sabretooth with a premonition of the Mystique conflict on the last page, and the material from #25 has Ms. Marvel exposing an arms deal of the Hellfire Club (Tessa, Pierce and Leland) and also having a run-in with Pyro from Mystique's Brotherhood. Mystique and Destiny were also in the story. There's also a scene where Ms. Marvel experiences a precognitive flash/hallucination, which foreshadows her conflict with Rogue and has Carol wear the Hellfire Club's Black Queen costume, so apparenly that was Mastermind's doing.

Though it's unclear how the storyline would have progressed, it apparently would have left Mystique and Mastermind on very bad terms, as such providing a reason for Mastermind to include Mystique in his vendetta against everyone who had wronged him (Emma Frost in UXM #168, then Mystique and then the X-Men in #173-175). If the Ms Marvel storyline had more hystorical-based illusions, then indeed Mystique would have been able to deduce Mastermind's identity.
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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Nu-D » 29 Mar 2019, 11:34

Interesting stuff. I tried to read CC’s Ms. Marvel a few years back, but it was too Silver Age for my tastes.

CC’s habit of treating his unpublished stories as canon used to bother me. It resulted in a lot of danglers and other bits that never made any sense to the reader. With the perspective of time, however, I can see how much richer the published work was with the sense that real things had happened to these characters in the past that we hadn’t read about yet. And when some of those stories later were published, it made the whole continuity more full.

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Re: Mastermind's Effect on Rogue

Post by Quick and Dead » 29 Mar 2019, 20:20

Yeah, Shaw and Rogue also reference fighting before in Uncanny X-Men Annul #7.

All these years, I''m surprised Claremont never worked the Hellfire VS Brotherhood thing into flashbacks or an issue of Classic X-Men or Unlimited.
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