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Disney plans for X-men

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Anna Raven
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Anna Raven » 13 Sep 2019, 01:06

EphemeristX wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 00:50
I think the idea would be to update his origin. At a certain point, having him be a Holocaust survivor just isn't feasible. There are plenty of ethnic cleansing events in recent history they could sub in for German Jews.


I imagine you are probably right, I honestly knew the day would come where it would happen, I'm a little upset that it's here though.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by XtremeOne1 » 13 Sep 2019, 02:03

First, I think we should take any X-Men news within the next two to three years with a grain of salt. I mean, almost every day I see some random news site say they got EXCLUSIVE deets about the X-Men's future in the MCU and I'm gonna say Full Circle Cinema is as reliable as any of those sites..

Second, as a Jew, I'd be kinda hurt if Magneto wasn't a Jewish Holocaust survivor. To me, that's always been something I've been drawn to in the X-Men comics, and something that always makes Magneto, to me, as someone who had family lost in the Holocaust. a deeply personal character. It isn't hard to have a throw away line that "Oh, he's able to de-age himself due to his powers" or, what I did in my fan fiction way back when, "he has a mutant in his group that keeps him young".

This is a movie universe with a giant purple dude who snapped away half the world, a talking raccoon and tree, and one where we're supposed to believe Benedict Cumberbatch's American accent, why not stretch and suspend belief here.

Also, Magneto can be both a PoC and Jewish! There aren't mutually exclusive, so I'm all for a PoC Xavier and Magneto.

I hope we can get a REALLY diverse X-Men, right from the start. We don't need the O5, I'd love a new O5(and Wolverine). A black Cyclops(fulfilling what started here long ago), red head(a must) latina Jean, Storm, an Asian AND British Psylocke, and a gay Iceman(I'd love if he was in the closest at first. I think the 'coming out' would be great to explore). Magneto doesn't need to be white, but he does need to be Jewish, he needs to be a Holocaust survivor. The Disney X-Men need to make up for the practically diversity-free Fox X-Men.

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Anna Raven
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Anna Raven » 13 Sep 2019, 03:16

Not being a troll when I says this, but were there any dark-skinned Jews in the Concentration Camps? They were mostly Polish and German nationals, so most of them would have been pretty fair skinned I would think.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Spectral Knight » 13 Sep 2019, 03:40

Magneto has to be a Holocaust survivor. It's so strikingly obvious to me. Without that element of his backstory, it severely weakens his motives, and no other genocide in recent history (whilst all equally shameful episodes of our shared human history) have anything like the same level of public consciousness, and collective embarrassment regarding them.

More so, as we know the X-books have explicitly explored the idea of history repeating itself, from the MRA, through to DOFP and the mutant concentration camps. Magneto understands that without intervention this WILL happen again.

I'm sure there can be some timey-wimey stuff that can be used to pull Mags into the present without him being an OAP, as concerns about age are valid but I'd rather they come up with something a bit sci-fi esque than rewrite such a crucial part of the X-franchise.

Couldn't really care less if Xavier is a POC; as a caveat, I wouldn't necessarily want them to look specifically for a POC in their casting. I just think race makes zero difference to Charles's character, backstory or motives. Open casting would be the way I'd go, and if a POC best personifies the character of Charles, I've got no problem at all.

Understand the slight concerns re: being too close a parallel to the civil rights movement and it not having the same historical context (mutants were not used as a slave workforce for centuries for a start)... but I think with sensible storytelling they can be avoided.

Other suggestions re: diversity... black Scott - zero problems with this whatsoever (hi BC!!), but again I wouldn't look for a black actor per se and would prefer open casting, gay Iceman- whilst I hated the execution of this in the comics and felt it was a bit cheap, it is totally canon, so fine with this, though I'd prefer a closeted gay Iceman who uses his jokey outward personality to cover for his own insecurities as I think it does have a parallel with him being class clown and not seeing his own potential with his powers, Storm absolutely should feature and be a star of the franchise...

An "Asian" - sorry, disagree, this is the tokenism I kinda hate. Not to say I wouldn't want an Asian CHARACTER to feature (would love a main cast Jubilee, or Asian Betsy, with British accent could also work well*), but I just hate a race tick box approach to diversity inclusion.

* Shame Gemma Chan has been cast (twice!) in the MCU already, she'd make an amazing Psylocke.

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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by tokenBG1009 » 13 Sep 2019, 04:16

There are definitely recent genocides that could take the place of the Holocaust even if they aren't as significant and they could include POC actors to make it work. The Rwandan genocide is the first one that comes to mind and it ties back to racism so fits in the narrative of the X-Men in my opinion. It may be TOO recent though. Cambodia doesn't really fit the racist tone, but there's a possibility of "those that fear you" idea behind it.

I do think that Xavier is a character who works better white due to him being from "old money" and I can't think of a lot of POC with those kinds of ties in America. It also kind of goes along with why I think Steve Rogers needs to be white. This is a guy who really embodies that old time feeling where people weren't always so friendly and a lot of older folks had less than kind views of minorities. Yet, here he is, a symbol of equality.

The rest of the X-Men I'm less opinionated on. Logan kind of goes in the same field of Xavier, but I doubt many comic fans even know he's from old money as well. He's also capable of being somewhat "ageless" considering his healing factor.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Sep 2019, 11:55

The moment you make any of the specifically “old” characters like Logan or Xavier Black, for example, you completely change who they are. Unless you do a full on Ultimates reboot of them, they couldn’t live in the world the way they did if they weren’t white.

It’s not the same as saying Danny Rand could be Asian (his family owned a tech company most of the time, Hello Samsung! Lol). Xavier not being white can only work if he’s like in his 30s (maybe 40s) and has his origins changed.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by EphemeristX » 13 Sep 2019, 12:40

It may not, but what are we going to do? Have Magneto be over a hundred years old? Xavier too? Or are they no longer contemporaries? It's not an enviable task, but I think it needs to be done.

Also, when Xavier formed the X-Men, I'm pretty sure he was supposed to be in his late 30s or early 40s. He was a Korean War vet. That was about ten years before the X-Men formed. He was young enough that the writers didn't think it was in bad taste for him to be a little in love with Jean Grey.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Sep 2019, 12:51

Well it was the 1960s.

What writer today would be think it’s good taste for a 40yr to be eyeing his teenage student? Lol
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Sep 2019, 12:51

I’m 37, I’d question myself if I was into a 17 yr old studeny of mine.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by P-90 » 13 Sep 2019, 13:30

Blackcyclops wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 11:55
The moment you make any of the specifically “old” characters like Logan or Xavier Black, for example, you completely change who they are. Unless you do a full on Ultimates reboot of them, they couldn’t live in the world the way they did if they weren’t white.

It’s not the same as saying Danny Rand could be Asian (his family owned a tech company most of the time, Hello Samsung! Lol). Xavier not being white can only work if he’s like in his 30s (maybe 40s) and has his origins changed.
That's not true, Danny's race is an important aspect of his characterisation, he's the noticeable outsider in K'un-Lun who has to train and fight harder than anyone else just to gain acceptance and having spent his formative years there he again feels like the outsider when he returns to New York. Also his race is important as a comment on race relations regarding his sibling-like relationship with Luke Cage and their very different backgrounds.

It's similar to the character Snake Eyes from G.I Joe, an Asian actor has been cast to play him in his upcoming movie ignoring the fact that his creator Larry Hama, who is Asian, specifically created the character to be white because he was annoyed by the 'All Asians are martial artists' trope and wanted to show that, as in real life, race has nothing to to with whether you can be good at martial arts, it's about hard work and determination.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by XtremeOne1 » 13 Sep 2019, 13:32

EphemeristX wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 12:40
It may not, but what are we going to do? Have Magneto be over a hundred years old? Xavier too? Or are they no longer contemporaries? It's not an enviable task, but I think it needs to be done.

Again, I don't get why he can't be over a hundred years old(which, if he was, let's say, eight, in the Holocaust, he'd be closer to 90). There are dozens of ways to explain why Magneto is physically in his 40's/50's. Sure he and Xavier won't be "contemporaries" because they can still be friends/rivals. I mean, if we're going by that, Wolverine can't have a single love interest in the film or contemporaries because of his age.

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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by P-90 » 13 Sep 2019, 13:41

Blackcyclops wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 12:51
I’m 37, I’d question myself if I was into a 17 yr old studeny of mine.
That's actually perfectly fine as long as you don't act on it, as a species it's natural to find young healthy people sexually attractive, it's a result of millennia of evolutionary reproductive instinct. What we have to remember is that the idea of an 'age of consent' or even that it's not right for humans to reproduce as soon as they're physically able is a relatively new concept and there are still cultures where it's the norm. Now don't get me wrong, I'm talking about post pubescent young adults not actual children, that is a completely different thing and obviously wrong.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Sep 2019, 13:54

P-90 wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 13:41
Blackcyclops wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 12:51
I’m 37, I’d question myself if I was into a 17 yr old studeny of mine.
That's actually perfectly fine as long as you don't act on it, as a species it's natural to find young healthy people sexually attractive, it's a result of millennia of evolutionary reproductive instinct. What we have to remember is that the idea of an 'age of consent' or even that it's not right for humans to reproduce as soon as they're physically able is a relatively new concept and there are still cultures where it's the norm. Now don't get me wrong, I'm talking about post pubescent young adults not actual children, that is a completely different thing and obviously wrong.
I’d argue attraction is just as social as it is biological, if not more but...

I wasn’t even talking about the age thing, I said “my student” lol, it’s the power differential. That says more to me about a person than anything about age.



(And by being into I don’t just mean “oh they’re cute”, I mean like “into them” and that to me means more than physical stuff and I can’t even imagine ehat me and a 17 yr old can even talk about lol)
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by P-90 » 13 Sep 2019, 14:06

Blackcyclops wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 13:54
P-90 wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 13:41
Blackcyclops wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 12:51
I’m 37, I’d question myself if I was into a 17 yr old studeny of mine.
That's actually perfectly fine as long as you don't act on it, as a species it's natural to find young healthy people sexually attractive, it's a result of millennia of evolutionary reproductive instinct. What we have to remember is that the idea of an 'age of consent' or even that it's not right for humans to reproduce as soon as they're physically able is a relatively new concept and there are still cultures where it's the norm. Now don't get me wrong, I'm talking about post pubescent young adults not actual children, that is a completely different thing and obviously wrong.
I’d argue attraction is just as social as it is biological, if not more but...

I wasn’t even talking about the age thing, I said “my student” lol, it’s the power differential. That says more to me about a person than anything about age.



(And by being into I don’t just mean “oh they’re cute”, I mean like “into them” and that to me means more than physical stuff and I can’t even imagine ehat me and a 17 yr old can even talk about lol)
Ah okay, my mistake and yeah I completely agree.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Spectral Knight » 13 Sep 2019, 16:11

I think we as a society are a bit more aware of the power differentials than anything else, as BC rightly indicated. A 37 year old and a 17 year old who meet in casual social circumstances, is very, very different from a 37 year old who is essentially the main care provider of the 17 year old. In the UK, those sorts of relationships are actually illegal as as it's a breach of trust, even though both are over the age of consent.

I think the race / age thing is interesting... not sure I'd entirely agree; Sam L Jackson plays an 'old' Fury well enough, but I appreciate that was a reboot. With Wolverine, there's certainly a contextual element - he was an estate owner's son at the turn of the century in Canada. Very, very rare for such people to be black, even now, I think the black population of Alberta is quite low.

But there certainly were black reverends, teachers, doctors and other positions of authority in the 60s, and not just in 'black society' (one of my mum's earliest primary school teachers was a black lady, and she was in the US at the time). Those families with 'old money' would've been rarer though, but probably less so, so I can buy a black Charles much more so than a black Logan.

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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Anna Raven » 13 Sep 2019, 16:27

Spectral Knight wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 16:11
I think we as a society are a bit more aware of the power differentials than anything else, as BC rightly indicated. A 37 year old and a 17 year old who meet in casual social circumstances, is very, very different from a 37 year old who is essentially the main care provider of the 17 year old. In the UK, those sorts of relationships are actually illegal as as it's a breach of trust, even though both are over the age of consent.

I think the race / age thing is interesting... not sure I'd entirely agree; Sam L Jackson plays an 'old' Fury well enough, but I appreciate that was a reboot. With Wolverine, there's certainly a contextual element - he was an estate owner's son at the turn of the century in Canada. Very, very rare for such people to be black, even now, I think the black population of Alberta is quite low.

But there certainly were black reverends, teachers, doctors and other positions of authority in the 60s, and not just in 'black society' (one of my mum's earliest primary school teachers was a black lady, and she was in the US at the time). Those families with 'old money' would've been rarer though, but probably less so, so I can buy a black Charles much more so than a black Logan.
Did anyone ever see the movie Glory? Remember there was a character I forget his name, who was a black doctor who was buddies with Matthew Broderick's character. He was pretty well off, obviously well connected with white folks in the North, and this was set during the Civil War. So I don't think it's a stretch someone like that could have existed during Xavier's heyday.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by EphemeristX » 13 Sep 2019, 16:50

Wolverine's whole schtick is that he's a zillion years old. What happens to Magneto's children? Do they become his great-grandchildren or did he wait 80 years before having kids?

It makes more sense to sensibly update his origins. There are plenty of well established genocides to choose from.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Sep 2019, 16:54

It’s not that they couldn’t exist its just that person who came from old money (being honest, alot of depictions of well-off Black folks pre-1960s is usually done to soften how terrible white supremacy as a system and foundation of this country is) as a Black man would just have a completely different life experience than a white guy just because of his race.

Now Xavier could be a Latino or Asian too but again it would really change some stuff about his origin. But I do understand Token’s point about the ally idea of Xavier as a white guy (plus it properly contextualizes his paternalism).

Logan as anything but a white dude...nah. Nope. Maybe an Indigenous person who can pass as white sometimes, would be interesting.

But Magneto has to be Jewish...he could be non-white but I don’t think we should get rid of that Jewish connection...especially NOT today in our current climate.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by XtremeOne1 » 13 Sep 2019, 17:52

EphemeristX wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 16:50
Wolverine's whole schtick is that he's a zillion years old. What happens to Magneto's children? Do they become his great-grandchildren or did he wait 80 years before having kids?

It makes more sense to sensibly update his origins. There are plenty of well established genocides to choose from.
Again, he's been deaged, aging slower or kept young jt doesn't matter. So he doesn't have kids until his 60s, that isn't unheard of in the real world, let alone a world where we can he ages slowly or some other excuse. I'm really not sure why his age is an issue in a world of powers, aliens and magic

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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by RingOtaku » 13 Sep 2019, 18:09

Blackcyclops wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 16:54
Logan as anything but a white dude...nah. Nope. Maybe an Indigenous person who can pass as white sometimes, would be interesting.

But Magneto has to be Jewish...he could be non-white but I don’t think we should get rid of that Jewish connection...especially NOT today in our current climate.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Spectral Knight » 13 Sep 2019, 18:10

...and TIME TRAVEL!

And yeah, with I agree BC - Mags HAS to be Jewish. With rampant anti-semitism again on the rise (look at the Labour party of today), I think race / ethnic origin switching him would be an utter disgrace frankly.

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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by EphemeristX » 13 Sep 2019, 19:39

At the same time, imagine if you make him a victim of Rwandan or Bosnian genocide. Yes, the Holocaust is still remembered today, but these are things that happened in our lifetimes. The emotional impact could easily work. And there are plenty of other groups that are being demonized today that the parallels could easily be drawn. Muslims, africans, south americans, gays, etc.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Sep 2019, 19:52

See I get your point EphX. I only think the complexity of Magneto being a Jewish man is important just to keep in the collective conscious the truly precarious situation of Jewish people.

I mean unless you’re going to make some other prominent character Jewish, I do believe that there’s certain stories that have to be included in the story of the X-Men. Like Wakanda bring unconquerored, Magneto’s agenda being shaped by that tragedy provides a humanity to Jewish people that some people want to rob of them. That’s why I say keep Magneto Jewish because it’s an inclusion of Jewish people you dont have to add...it’s there. Otherwise, yeah you gotta like make someone else Jewish if you’re going to make Magneto Rawandan or Sudanese.
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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by XtremeOne1 » 13 Sep 2019, 20:58

EphemeristX wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 19:39
At the same time, imagine if you make him a victim of Rwandan or Bosnian genocide. Yes, the Holocaust is still remembered today, but these are things that happened in our lifetimes. The emotional impact could easily work. And there are plenty of other groups that are being demonized today that the parallels could easily be drawn. Muslims, africans, south americans, gays, etc.
The Holocaust is "in our lifetime" for many Jews though, in terms of our families. If you visit the Holocaust memorial, Anne Frank's house, go to Germany and see the memorials everywhere, it's still current. The Holocaust isn't just "remembered" its still felt. It's still relevant to every single Jew.

It's why Magneto's past as a Holocaust survivor is so important to me. The Holocaust isn't "in the past" for many. My grandma is still afraid to go to Germany.

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Re: Disney plans for X-men

Post by Spectral Knight » 13 Sep 2019, 21:01

EphemeristX wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 19:39
At the same time, imagine if you make him a victim of Rwandan or Bosnian genocide. Yes, the Holocaust is still remembered today, but these are things that happened in our lifetimes. The emotional impact could easily work. And there are plenty of other groups that are being demonized today that the parallels could easily be drawn. Muslims, africans, south americans, gays, etc.
I don't really want to get into a which genocide was worse type argument as no-one wins, but I think the specific context of the Holocaust is something that more closely mirrors the persecutions that mutants have faced in the comics, leading to Mags in the future once again being confined to a concentration camp for nothing more than for who he is, despite all of his "never again" proclamations, which is understated reason why DOFP is so tragically brilliant. I'm not trying to belittle any subsequent genocide but I think as an extended program of extermination the Holocaust was probably the first time that the world was completely collectively (and rightly) totally ashamed of itself, and I think Magneto's Jewish history of being a victim of it is such an all-defining part of his character.

For me, switching Magneto's very specific background would be an insult to the memories of all those who died, and those survivors that continue to suffer from the actions of that regime, as it's essentially arguing one genocide can be swapped for another without any contextual understanding of how each mass campaign of murder and extinction differ...while all undoubtedly wrong, there's specific causes behind all of them, and the Holocaust was the culmination of centuries and centuries of persecution and demonisation.

I know it's only a fictional character and that but for many Jews, that kind of thinking would sting hard.

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