Welcome to unstablemolecules.com, the discussion home for mightyavengers.net, uncanon.com and uncannyxmen.net!

Avengers 4

Did you see the Dr. Strange Movie from the 70's? Me neither, but I'm sure someone did. Come here to talk about Movies and TV
User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4125
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 30 Apr 2019, 14:59

Magik84 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 14:55
Anna Raven wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 14:32
Milkshake08 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 05:02
OK I loved this for many reasons (Nat's fate aside - that was honestly crap) but one thing none of you guys has mentioned that is really, really poorly thought out time jump storytelling...

WHY ARE SPIDER-MAN'S FRIENDS STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL. WHY ARE THEY ALL GOING ON A HIGH SCHOOL FIELD TRIP IN THE NEXT MOVIE. It's been 5 years and they were all sophomores. They would be in college, while he would be back in high school.
I hate to dip into spoiler territory, but do we know for sure all of them are back? I don't think we've seen Liz Allen in a trailer yet have we? Supposing Liz did not get dusted that means just Ned, Flash, and MJ did for sure. And the same number of people central to Hawkeye's life also got dusted. I'm always eager to look for no-prizes, and you could argue there was some kind of cosmic formula used that centered more on the loved ones of earth's heroes.
Well didn't Liz Allen move away with her mom at end of Homecoming, so I was assuming she wouldn't be back anyway.
Oh yeh that's true. But my point about it dusting an equal number of Hawkeye's family still stands.
Thunderbolts Draft: Punisher | Black Cat | Moon Knight (as Kraven the Hunter) | Diamondback | Taskmaster | Domino | Nuke | Trickshot | Jolt | Troll
Avengers International Draft: France | Monica Rambeau | Tamara Devoux | Jacques Duquesne | Batroc |

User avatar
EphemeristX
Posts: 4620
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 16:50
Contact:

Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 30 Apr 2019, 15:44

All of the Van Dyne-Pyms were dusted. All of the Langs survived. It happens that way sometimes.
http://dancehall-daze.tumblr.com

"Take your baby by the ears
And play upon her darkest fears"

User avatar
Spectral Knight
Posts: 1095
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:00

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 30 Apr 2019, 18:36

Anna Raven wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 14:38
Nu-D wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 12:53
tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 00:24

5. The Reality Stone and Mjolnir are taken (Thor 2)
...there are no stakes because there will always be both the better and the worse outcome.

Instead, the hero has to accomplish the mission without screwing up the past, which gives the story something to lean on. And since that's consistent with how the Ancient Once treated giving up the Time Stone, it has narrative support in the canon.
Your way is more dramatic, and works for the story so I won't tell you are wrong. But the way Quantum Physics/String Theory works (which is exactly how they laid it out in the film) there literally IS always a better and worse outcome. In fact it's an infinite number of outcomes. Somewhere, there's a universe where Cap never got frozen in ice and thus Thanos won during the battle of New York.

In the end, it was kind of silly for them to berate Back to the Future in the dialogue, because for all their psuedo-scientific talk, time travel is still just as silly a notion in this film as when Marty McFly did it. You just have to go with it or not.
Berating BTTF is especially silly since so much of Endgame borrowed from BTTF 2. Not that I'm complaining but the whole time travel to see a prior film's events from a different angle was genius in 1989, and still genius three decades later. I'm sure I mentioned how much I love that film and it's still my all time favourite movie ever...

BTTF even somewhat got around the changing the past does change the future paradox, by arguing that it does, just not instantly (it's essentially a ripple effect), which is why Marty didn't fade away immediately and why Old Biff could return to the future despite him now creating an alternate universe. I guess this would be a variation on the grace period argument proposed by Nu-D. The challenge to me is can a returning Steve 'fix' the divergent before the ripple takes effect? And to me that's a yes for some of the scenarios (returning the Space Stone to 1970 ish, returning the Soul Stone, returning the Time Stone), but no to others (the most drastic changes where the ripple would have a more immediate and damaging effect).

From my understanding the only reason Steve can and does go back is because they've previously created a non-pre-destined time travel divergence (or four...) resulting in the events of the final battle in Endgame. Does Steve go back in time if they hadn't already? Nope, so therefore his actions cannot be predetermined.

User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4125
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 30 Apr 2019, 19:29

Spectral Knight wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 18:36
Anna Raven wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 14:38
Nu-D wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 12:53


...there are no stakes because there will always be both the better and the worse outcome.

Instead, the hero has to accomplish the mission without screwing up the past, which gives the story something to lean on. And since that's consistent with how the Ancient Once treated giving up the Time Stone, it has narrative support in the canon.
Your way is more dramatic, and works for the story so I won't tell you are wrong. But the way Quantum Physics/String Theory works (which is exactly how they laid it out in the film) there literally IS always a better and worse outcome. In fact it's an infinite number of outcomes. Somewhere, there's a universe where Cap never got frozen in ice and thus Thanos won during the battle of New York.

In the end, it was kind of silly for them to berate Back to the Future in the dialogue, because for all their psuedo-scientific talk, time travel is still just as silly a notion in this film as when Marty McFly did it. You just have to go with it or not.
Berating BTTF is especially silly since so much of Endgame borrowed from BTTF 2. Not that I'm complaining but the whole time travel to see a prior film's events from a different angle was genius in 1989, and still genius three decades later. I'm sure I mentioned how much I love that film and it's still my all time favourite movie ever...

BTTF even somewhat got around the changing the past does change the future paradox, by arguing that it does, just not instantly (it's essentially a ripple effect), which is why Marty didn't fade away immediately and why Old Biff could return to the future despite him now creating an alternate universe. I guess this would be a variation on the grace period argument proposed by Nu-D. The challenge to me is can a returning Steve 'fix' the divergent before the ripple takes effect? And to me that's a yes for some of the scenarios (returning the Space Stone to 1970 ish, returning the Soul Stone, returning the Time Stone), but no to others (the most drastic changes where the ripple would have a more immediate and damaging effect).

From my understanding the only reason Steve can and does go back is because they've previously created a non-pre-destined time travel divergence (or four...) resulting in the events of the final battle in Endgame. Does Steve go back in time if they hadn't already? Nope, so therefore his actions cannot be predetermined.
Honestly my ONLY requirement for a time travel story is that, if you are going to bother to set up rules for it, you better follow the rules. I don't really care what those rules are. Just as long as it's consistent.
Thunderbolts Draft: Punisher | Black Cat | Moon Knight (as Kraven the Hunter) | Diamondback | Taskmaster | Domino | Nuke | Trickshot | Jolt | Troll
Avengers International Draft: France | Monica Rambeau | Tamara Devoux | Jacques Duquesne | Batroc |

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 18455
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Apr 2019, 21:37

EphemeristX wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 15:44
All of the Van Dyne-Pyms were dusted. All of the Langs survived. It happens that way sometimes.

Realistically if it is actually random you would situations in which an entire city could be untouched while one whole coty could be dusted. Random doesn’t behave by any rule of “this family”
I'm Team Remender, Waid, Hickman and Gillen

My X-Men Draft Picks:
Prof. X, Legion, Polaris, Quicksilver, Meggan, Deadpool, Pixie, and Danger

User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4125
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 01 May 2019, 01:13

This is the official statement by the Russo's:

“Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can’t change the future by simply going back to past. But it’s possible to create a different alternate future. It’s not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”

They went on to say that Cap's method to jump back to the main reality is a secret that may or may not be revealed later.

https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endg ... explained/
Thunderbolts Draft: Punisher | Black Cat | Moon Knight (as Kraven the Hunter) | Diamondback | Taskmaster | Domino | Nuke | Trickshot | Jolt | Troll
Avengers International Draft: France | Monica Rambeau | Tamara Devoux | Jacques Duquesne | Batroc |

User avatar
Gibbering Fool
Posts: 3664
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 03:10

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 01 May 2019, 02:28

Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 01:13
This is the official statement by the Russo's:

“Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can’t change the future by simply going back to past. But it’s possible to create a different alternate future. It’s not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”

They went on to say that Cap's method to jump back to the main reality is a secret that may or may not be revealed later.

https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endg ... explained/
Well at least that answers that question :D

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 4882
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 01 May 2019, 04:30

Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 01:13
This is the official statement by the Russo's:

“Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can’t change the future by simply going back to past. But it’s possible to create a different alternate future. It’s not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”

They went on to say that Cap's method to jump back to the main reality is a secret that may or may not be revealed later.

https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endg ... explained/
Well blow my dress up.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4125
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 01 May 2019, 04:36

tokenBG1009 wrote:
01 May 2019, 04:30
Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 01:13
This is the official statement by the Russo's:

“Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can’t change the future by simply going back to past. But it’s possible to create a different alternate future. It’s not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”

They went on to say that Cap's method to jump back to the main reality is a secret that may or may not be revealed later.

https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endg ... explained/
Well blow my dress up.
I mean, every once and a while I know what I'm talking about guys. :)
Thunderbolts Draft: Punisher | Black Cat | Moon Knight (as Kraven the Hunter) | Diamondback | Taskmaster | Domino | Nuke | Trickshot | Jolt | Troll
Avengers International Draft: France | Monica Rambeau | Tamara Devoux | Jacques Duquesne | Batroc |

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 4882
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 01 May 2019, 04:37

Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 04:36
tokenBG1009 wrote:
01 May 2019, 04:30
Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 01:13
This is the official statement by the Russo's:

“Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can’t change the future by simply going back to past. But it’s possible to create a different alternate future. It’s not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”

They went on to say that Cap's method to jump back to the main reality is a secret that may or may not be revealed later.

https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endg ... explained/
Well blow my dress up.
I mean, every once and a while I know what I'm talking about guys. :)
Oh I have no issues believing that. I just didn't realize that was the way they went.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

User avatar
Spectral Knight
Posts: 1095
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:00

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 01 May 2019, 05:03

I really need to watch this again. So according to that quote, actions in the past have the potential to create divergent realities. Got that, makes sense. It's possible to avoid divergent realities if the Stones are returned without consequential divergences. Understood.

The question I therefore have is if there is even a need for Steve to go back for MCU Prime or is it only out of the goodness of his heart for those other realities? Is not returning them actually better for the futures of those realities?

Without the Space Stone in the alternate reality where they stole it in the 70s, there's no Battle of NYC or Snap. If there's no Mind Stone after the Battle of NYC, Ultron is not created (nor is Vision) and the Twins stay unpowered. There's also no Snap. Without the Reality Stone being returned to Jane, Malekith can't sense it, there's no dust-up in London and the Stone doesn't end up with the Collector, for Thanos to steal it, consequently no Snap. If the Power Stone isn't returned the GOTG isn't formed, but equally Ronan can't get his hand on it, Xandar won't get custody of it, and there's no Snap. What this means for Quill and Ego I don't know though. Without the Soul Stone, Thanos cannot sacrifice Gamora, and consequently, no Snap.

The Time Stone is probably the only one which really makes a difference being absent, as without it Dormamu wins, as Strange can't time loop him into boredom, which could probably be the one outcome worse than the Snap, for Earth at least.

Of course we have no way of knowing if Steve even did return the Stones at all. If he's crossing realities to meet with Sam, and we know that whatever happened in MCU Prime happened, how do we know Old Steve hasn't just got them rattling around in his pocket.

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 4882
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 01 May 2019, 10:06

Unrelated, but people keep saying Slattery and it took me a while to realize that's the actor that played Howard Stark. I was wondering why we kept talking about Ben Kingsley.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya


User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2385
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 01 May 2019, 17:11

Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 01:13
For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”
Boo. Unnecessary and unappealing.

The movie drops a notch in my estimation because of this.

User avatar
EphemeristX
Posts: 4620
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 16:50
Contact:

Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 01 May 2019, 21:02

Anna Raven wrote:
01 May 2019, 01:13
This is the official statement by the Russo's:

“Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can’t change the future by simply going back to past. But it’s possible to create a different alternate future. It’s not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.”

They went on to say that Cap's method to jump back to the main reality is a secret that may or may not be revealed later.

https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endg ... explained/
Boom. 8-)
http://dancehall-daze.tumblr.com

"Take your baby by the ears
And play upon her darkest fears"

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 18455
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 01 May 2019, 21:07

Spectral Knight wrote:
01 May 2019, 05:03
I really need to watch this again. So according to that quote, actions in the past have the potential to create divergent realities. Got that, makes sense. It's possible to avoid divergent realities if the Stones are returned without consequential divergences. Understood.

The question I therefore have is if there is even a need for Steve to go back for MCU Prime or is it only out of the goodness of his heart for those other realities? Is not returning them actually better for the futures of those realities?

Without the Space Stone in the alternate reality where they stole it in the 70s, there's no Battle of NYC or Snap. If there's no Mind Stone after the Battle of NYC, Ultron is not created (nor is Vision) and the Twins stay unpowered. There's also no Snap. Without the Reality Stone being returned to Jane, Malekith can't sense it, there's no dust-up in London and the Stone doesn't end up with the Collector, for Thanos to steal it, consequently no Snap. If the Power Stone isn't returned the GOTG isn't formed, but equally Ronan can't get his hand on it, Xandar won't get custody of it, and there's no Snap. What this means for Quill and Ego I don't know though. Without the Soul Stone, Thanos cannot sacrifice Gamora, and consequently, no Snap.

The Time Stone is probably the only one which really makes a difference being absent, as without it Dormamu wins, as Strange can't time loop him into boredom, which could probably be the one outcome worse than the Snap, for Earth at least.

Of course we have no way of knowing if Steve even did return the Stones at all. If he's crossing realities to meet with Sam, and we know that whatever happened in MCU Prime happened, how do we know Old Steve hasn't just got them rattling around in his pocket.
Well the Ancient One says timelines without stones are basically the darkest timelines...so he has to return them. Otherwise you get the dark multiverse situation like at DC.
I'm Team Remender, Waid, Hickman and Gillen

My X-Men Draft Picks:
Prof. X, Legion, Polaris, Quicksilver, Meggan, Deadpool, Pixie, and Danger

User avatar
EphemeristX
Posts: 4620
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 16:50
Contact:

Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 01 May 2019, 21:31

AVENGERS METAL! *guitar riff*
http://dancehall-daze.tumblr.com

"Take your baby by the ears
And play upon her darkest fears"

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 18455
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 01 May 2019, 22:07

EphemeristX wrote:
01 May 2019, 21:31
AVENGERS METAL! *guitar riff*
I’m here for it tbh
I'm Team Remender, Waid, Hickman and Gillen

My X-Men Draft Picks:
Prof. X, Legion, Polaris, Quicksilver, Meggan, Deadpool, Pixie, and Danger

User avatar
Gibbering Fool
Posts: 3664
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 03:10

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 02 May 2019, 04:39

I have to wonder if this time travel/alternate time line stuff is laying the ground work for setting up the X-Men in an alternate timeline of the MCU

...or at least setting up Kang as a future villain.

User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2385
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 02 May 2019, 15:02

Gibbering Fool wrote:
02 May 2019, 04:39
I have to wonder if this time travel/alternate time line stuff is laying the ground work for setting up the X-Men in an alternate timeline of the MCU

...or at least setting up Kang as a future villain.
I would love an X-Men movie with Elizabeth Olsen’s Scarlet Witch and her brother as defectors from Magneto’s Brotherhood.

User avatar
EvilMonkeyPope
Posts: 5327
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 22:07
Contact:

Re: Avengers 4

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 03 May 2019, 09:14

How'd Thanos's ship get through the time portal without Pym particles or Quantum Realm shielding?

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 4882
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 03 May 2019, 09:37

EvilMonkeyPope wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:14
How'd Thanos's ship get through the time portal without Pym particles or Quantum Realm shielding?
2014 Nebula gave him a vial of the particles. Most likely replicated the Pym Particles. Maybe Reed Richards is on board since he knows them better than Hank anyways.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

User avatar
Gibbering Fool
Posts: 3664
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 03:10

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 03 May 2019, 12:46

tokenBG1009 wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:37
EvilMonkeyPope wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:14
How'd Thanos's ship get through the time portal without Pym particles or Quantum Realm shielding?
2014 Nebula gave him a vial of the particles. Most likely replicated the Pym Particles. Maybe Reed Richards is on board since he knows them better than Hank anyways.
I'd assumed they'd recreated Pym particles with their advanced technology, from the vial Nebula had. That or they just flew to Earth and took more particles from Pym himself, since he was alive during that time.

User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4125
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 03 May 2019, 13:27

tokenBG1009 wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:37
EvilMonkeyPope wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:14
How'd Thanos's ship get through the time portal without Pym particles or Quantum Realm shielding?
2014 Nebula gave him a vial of the particles. Most likely replicated the Pym Particles. Maybe Reed Richards is on board since he knows them better than Hank anyways.
I had really wished Reed was already a part of the MCU for this movie. It was a real stretch for me to believe Tony or Banner would be able to come up with the formula for time travel. Reed and Pym (or Doom) would really be the only ones I feel could have a realistic shot at it. But then again I guess it's pretty easy when the answer was just an inverted circle with a twist in it. :P
Thunderbolts Draft: Punisher | Black Cat | Moon Knight (as Kraven the Hunter) | Diamondback | Taskmaster | Domino | Nuke | Trickshot | Jolt | Troll
Avengers International Draft: France | Monica Rambeau | Tamara Devoux | Jacques Duquesne | Batroc |

User avatar
RingOtaku
Posts: 1509
Joined: 17 Apr 2007, 17:12
Location: The Library Of Stories Never Written

Re: Avengers 4

Post by RingOtaku » 03 May 2019, 15:57

tokenBG1009 wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:37
EvilMonkeyPope wrote:
03 May 2019, 09:14
How'd Thanos's ship get through the time portal without Pym particles or Quantum Realm shielding?
2014 Nebula gave him a vial of the particles. Most likely replicated the Pym Particles. Maybe Reed Richards is on board since he knows them better than Hank anyways.
I always hated that comic book quote. Like it was so unnecessary except to dress down Hank Pym in front of the reader. Seriously, I have so much sympathy for the guy as it seems like Marvel's long-term editorial direction is "Pym is that guy that is the loser among the nerds but they let him hang out with them so the nerds have someone to bully".

Back to the movie no-prizing. I figure Thanos is smart enough to keep some major league scientists in his army so reverse-engineering Pym Particles wasn't that hard once he got the sample from Nebula.
D20 Roulette: A Podcast of Geeks and Raging. https://rouletteproductions.com

Post Reply