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Avengers 4

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Spectral Knight
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 30 Apr 2019, 04:46

tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 00:24
The Ancient One and Bruce describe exactly what is happening when she gives him the Time Stone. There are currently three timelines in the MCU.
1. The main one
2. The "Loki gets the Space Stone" one
3. The "Thanos and his army are destroyed before the events of GotG" one

There would be additional timelines for the following events:
1. Bruce takes the Time Stone (Pre-Doctor Strange)
2. Steve takes the Mind Stone (Avengers 1)
3. The Power and Soul stones are taken (Pre-GotG and Whenever)
4. The Space Stone is taken (Post Agent Carter)
5. The Reality Stone and Mjolnir are taken (Thor 2)

Steve goes back and replaces the stones taken from those timelines. Those are no longer divergement because the stones were replaced before they were taken. This is why they don't stop Thanos from fulfilling his plan. They just undo it in the present. They can't go back and undo what Thanos has done in the past because it would create an additional timeline.
I'm not convinced that Steve can stop all of these divergences...without it creating further alternate realities...he cannot replace the Stones before they were taken (that would leave 2 Stones in each location - which clearly would ring alarm bells and consequently a divergence) so has to replace them after they've been taken, but he can't return after they have been taken (as that's in an alternate future to that divergence) but has to travel back before the original divergences to allow them to occur as happened in Endgame before he can rectify. Now looking at each of those scenarios in turn...

1. Possibly... the Ancient One has through the conversations with Banner an understanding of what's happening and may very well accept the returned Time Stone without consequences. Free pass on this one.
2. For me this alternate reality is the same reality as Loki getting the Space Stone as they were changed in the same returning actions. In this reality Cap has just fought himself and proclaimed to existing Hydra members that he too is Hydra. Now young Cap did initially believe this to be Loki but the reveal of the locket caused a serious issue. None of these things happened first time around (obviously) so whilst the Stones may be returned it doesn't annul the changes that happened as the Stones were stolen so there's still a divergence. The other issue is even if the Space Stone is returned to SHIELD post Battle of NYC, Loki is still around with another copy of the Space Stone. In this instance the Space Stone wasn't removed from the timeline, just removed from it's prior physical location, and Steve would have no idea where Loki even took the Space Stone to try to account for this loose end, but in either case he's no longer in custody to be returned to Asgard with Thor as per the timeline we have actually seen (MCU Prime). I do see that the Mind Stone could be replaced much more easily though.
3. Could the Power Stone be returned? Possibly but to when? Quill has to steal it otherwise there's a divergence from MCU Prime. But Quill has just been knocked out by Nebula and War Machine, and Nebula has interacted through her cybernetics with past Nebula. So Steve doesn't just have to return the Power Stone so that Quill can grab it, but he has to prune those branches, but he can't as we know that's happened too (as we saw in the events of Endgame and that cannot be changed even if it did happen in a temporarily alternate reality). I've no idea how this could be resolved.
4. See no issue with Steve creeping back to returning the Space Stone some time after 1970 but before Mar-Vell starts Project Pegasus. Free pass on this one. Can't work out what's going on with the Soul Stone, as it doesn't seem to be stored in a conventional way, but give you a free pass here.
5. Mjolnir can be replaced easily enough in without too many consequences. Not sure how the Reality Stone can be re-implanted into Jane sometime after Rocket does his business and before the rest of Dark World happened as we saw it.

It's the consequential effects of what happened when the Power Stone was stolen and the chaos leading up to Loki stealing the Space Stone that makes me think Steve couldn't have always gone back and rectified the timeline. Some of those divergences HAD to happen precisely because this DID happen. We saw them happen. However we also saw they didn't happen (MCU Prime).

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Milkshake08 » 30 Apr 2019, 05:02

OK I loved this for many reasons (Nat's fate aside - that was honestly crap) but one thing none of you guys has mentioned that is really, really poorly thought out time jump storytelling...

WHY ARE SPIDER-MAN'S FRIENDS STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL. WHY ARE THEY ALL GOING ON A HIGH SCHOOL FIELD TRIP IN THE NEXT MOVIE. It's been 5 years and they were all sophomores. They would be in college, while he would be back in high school.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 30 Apr 2019, 05:18

I'm guessing it's because all his friends got snapped too. Coincidence? Yes, but works within the film's logic

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Apr 2019, 05:21

2. This reality is boned in some way due to Loki having the stone, but at the same time at least it's still there and time could potential correct itself. The Mind Stone is a bit more difficult simply due to how he ended up taking the stone though. He could simply wait until after Steve leaves the reality and gives it back to the Hydra agents.

3. This timeline is so f***ed I don't honestly have an answer for it. Thanos and his entire army are just gone. Steve probably returns to this timeline, looks around and realizes what they've done and just leaves. At least the stone is back in place? As for the Soul Stone... I guess he just handed it back to Ghost Red Skull and said "Thanks, we're done with it now" and leaves. This is actually the Fox timeline and the X-Men are refugees who come from it during an incursion to settle on the MCU Prime as a burgeoning mutant population begins to grow. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

5. Stabs Jane before she wakes up.

2 and 3 are the only ones that are a bit screwy because of the events that happen in them. Coincidentally, they're the two divergement timelines I figured as well. (Funny story, I hadn't realized that when I was typing.)

Also, I'm totally gonna be wrong when the movie comes to Blu-Ray or people watch it this close enough to point out how wrong I am. In Gamora's death scene in Infinity War she lands next to a spot on the ground with red stains. This could easily be previous sacrifices, but how many people really know about the Soul Stone? I kind of want to believe it's Nat's blood on the ground next to Gamora.
Milkshake08 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 05:02
OK I loved this for many reasons (Nat's fate aside - that was honestly crap) but one thing none of you guys has mentioned that is really, really poorly thought out time jump storytelling...

WHY ARE SPIDER-MAN'S FRIENDS STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL. WHY ARE THEY ALL GOING ON A HIGH SCHOOL FIELD TRIP IN THE NEXT MOVIE. It's been 5 years and they were all sophomores. They would be in college, while he would be back in high school.
We don't know who of his friends died. It's entirely possible they all died or the ones who didn't aren't there. If they died then they missed 5 years. No one who died aged. They were all returned as they were when they were dusted.

Opening a box of worms, but why was Nat's fate crap? Is it simply because Clint had more to atone for? How is that any fairer considering we know Nat has skeletons in her closet? One of them had to die. There were compelling reasons for each of them to live. Nat's reason to sacrifice herself was honestly the stronger argument from a heroic standpoint. She died to give Clint his family back. Clint wanted to die to atone for his sins. Nat's death was a sacrifice. Clint's death would have been suicide.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Milkshake08 » 30 Apr 2019, 05:30

...because, Token, she's the only female in the original team and she misses half the movie and barely did anything in the last one. Like, whatever, I'm glad Clint didn't die either, but her death was dumb and actually wasn't that sad since it was done in an almost comical way with the same position and music as Gamora's which was actually gut wrenching in the last film. It wasn't original, it was a copy of the last film, and it felt weird. If she and Gamora were just in the Soul Stone and came back, I would've been fine with it, but it was really dumb to me. Also, her hair made me actually angry. In five years, she would've gotten rid of the blond tips, Russo brothers. Seriously.

Nebula was MVP in this film, and I cried throughout the whole thing. I got the one thing I wanted, Peggy and Cap having their dance. So I'm incredibly happy about the film as a whole, I just didn't like this one thing (well and it would've been nice to see Sif, Nakia, and Agent 13 who still exists and now her uncle apparently made out with her). And I still highly question the Spider-Man thing until they address it in the next film.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Apr 2019, 05:45

See, I understand the "She was the only woman" comment because I had the same thought process when she died. When Thanos first arrives I felt it was weird they had no women there to fight with them.

At the same time, I don't think Natasha did anything less than other characters not named Tony Stark or Steve Rogers.

I'm kind of lost on your issue with Spider-Man and his (not so amazing) friends. Everyone was restored to their point before the snap. They didn't age because they were dead. At worst their graduation year changed and nothing else.

Also, Jesus Christ Natasha's hair bothered me so much. I'm even more bothered to realize they had to dye it like that.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by RingOtaku » 30 Apr 2019, 05:49

Just saw this. So many moments where I was just all "The Feels". This was a great closure to a series of movies and Tony will be missed.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Milkshake08 » 30 Apr 2019, 06:03

It's not really an "issue" with his friends, but there was no indication they were snapped so unless they explicitly say every one of his high school friends was snapped, which is awful convenient, it's a plot hole. I don't really care, but y'all are making huge theories/deals out of the time travel and that's a more obvious issue in my eyes. Time travel is always nonsensical, so I can forgive it. Unexplained plot contrivances aren't.

Cap didn't do much in Infinity War, but he got his due here. So did Clint. Clint was a huge part of this movie. Iron Man was big in both. Hulk had a decent amount of screentime in both as well, and an actual character arc, even if it was not that great. Thor had a ton to do in both films, too; literal entire plotlines revolving around him. So Natasha had significantly less to do than any of those characters and also missed out on half of this movie and the final big "every Avenger" battle, while dying in a manner that was already used to greater effect by another character in the film this was a sequel too. So, I mean, I don't really see how it wasn't crap. It was the worst part of the film and the only thing that I really didn't like. Otherwise, I truly loved it. I liked the "greatest hits" heist feeling. I loved the use of Ant-Man. I got tingles as every hero showed up in the end. I adored the use of Valkyrie (how'd she get her horse btw?). I sobbed during Tony and Howard's reunion, and Thor and Frigga, and Cap and Peggy. I yelped at the inclusion of Jarvis. I loved Pepper's armor, Tony's adorable daughter, giving the new Avengers' their due by having them football the gauntlet together. It was a great film where I disliked one moment because not only was it a poor decision on the who, but it was also not anywhere near as touching, gut wrenching, or necessary as most of the other moments in this and Infinity War.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Apr 2019, 06:26

Something that bothered me about Howard Stark, why was he so old? I know the answer is simply continuity with the role in other movies, but he should have been Dominic Cooper age Howard if that was the Jarvis we got.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Magik84 » 30 Apr 2019, 06:35

I'm accepting time travel stuff as wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff so not getting too bogged down in it. As for divergent timelines, I took it as there wasn't a major problem with creating different timelines due to character actions, but a timeline without one of the stones would be a disastrous timeline, as stones are integral to how the universe works.

I liked film a lot, better than infinity wars. Felt plot was more cohesive, like they split into teams but all had same goal. I would have liked to see some characters more, like why couldn't Okoye or Valkyrie be part of one of the teams, but otherwise happy they kept focus and smaller group of characters, mostly the old guard. Paul Rudd was delight throughout, bringing nice touch of lightness. I am going to miss young Cassie though. It was good send off for characters (surprised more didn't die!) and nice call backs to last 10 years of MCU.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 30 Apr 2019, 07:13

tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 06:26
Something that bothered me about Howard Stark, why was he so old? I know the answer is simply continuity with the role in other movies, but he should have been Dominic Cooper age Howard if that was the Jarvis we got.
No issue with this... Jarvis was clearly played as a much older Jarvis than what we'd seen in Agent Carter. In 1970 Cooper would have been 60 if he was the same age as his character (he's 40 now, last played Howard in 2016 set in '47). De-aged Slattery didn't look as old as 60. In fact, Slattery isn't even 60 now! Either way, Cooper would've had to have been aged, or we get what we had. And I think this option has more emotional connection with Tony as Slattery is physically closer to the father he lost.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 30 Apr 2019, 08:06

Spectral Knight wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 07:13
tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 06:26
Something that bothered me about Howard Stark, why was he so old? I know the answer is simply continuity with the role in other movies, but he should have been Dominic Cooper age Howard if that was the Jarvis we got.
No issue with this... Jarvis was clearly played as a much older Jarvis than what we'd seen in Agent Carter. In 1970 Cooper would have been 60 if he was the same age as his character (he's 40 now, last played Howard in 2016 set in '47). De-aged Slattery didn't look as old as 60. In fact, Slattery isn't even 60 now! Either way, Cooper would've had to have been aged, or we get what we had. And I think this option has more emotional connection with Tony as Slattery is physically closer to the father he lost.
Alright. I'll accept it.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Flapflop » 30 Apr 2019, 10:26

They really meant it with if you see the trailers youve seen nothing yet.

Loved it from start to finish. Want to see it again and again 8-) 8-) 8-)

Some random notes:

- Ok, the moment I realised Clint and Natasha went to Vormir i knew she would die. Because she was the one saying from the beginning for whatever it takes and she knows she is expendable, Clint has a family that can return. Only thing is that they should have known and not be surprised that one had to die. In the end it was indeed the best couple to go there because other couples couldn't sacrifice something they loved. Tony could have gone with Pepper or Morgan, but that would be to gut wretching. So BW had to go, but it made me less crying then when Tony died (more of that below).
- Loved Big Lebowski Thor, hope we get to see more of him in GotG3: The search for Gamora :D
- We need a Valkyrie movie now!
- Cap using Mjolnir applause!
- Professor Hulk was perfect
- Ant-Man is a real Avenger now. He really became a A-lister
- Nebula's arc was perfect, didn't saw that two Nebula Thanos knows now thing becoming until it happened
- That moment everyone came back to the battlefield to confront Thanos and his army, audience was cheering and on top of that we got a A-force line up moment. More cheers. Hope we get a A-force movie in the future.
- Scarlet Witch whoop assing Thanos! 'T: Do i know you?. SW: You will' He only got saved by his reignfire and then we get Captain Marvel still whooping more ass on him! Brilliant. 8-)
- They filmed Endgame before Captain Marvel so they didn't know yet how good her solo movie would be and her audience would get so big, so it was pity but not wrong that she isn't used that much. But she was still used marvelous at the right time and at the right moment! Though her saving Tony could have got some backstory (like an extended version of her post-credit scene where she introduces herself and then they send her to get Tony).
- Time travel always tricky, but it worked. I also see it like this: Cap went back in time to all the right places to bring the stones back at exact the same time they were taken (or just one minute later or so). Then he went back to just after being iced to Peggy (ditching the timesuit), lived his live with Peggy while his younger one was also running around, and knew where and when he had to show up again and just waited for being noticed. Bucky knew it from the start if you ask me.
- I cried when Tony died and with his funeral and hologram eulogy. Fitting that the MCU atarted and ended with him but still hearth breaking. He will be missed :cry:
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Apr 2019, 11:23

Spectral Knight wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 07:13
tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 06:26
Something that bothered me about Howard Stark, why was he so old? I know the answer is simply continuity with the role in other movies, but he should have been Dominic Cooper age Howard if that was the Jarvis we got.
No issue with this... Jarvis was clearly played as a much older Jarvis than what we'd seen in Agent Carter. In 1970 Cooper would have been 60 if he was the same age as his character (he's 40 now, last played Howard in 2016 set in '47). De-aged Slattery didn't look as old as 60. In fact, Slattery isn't even 60 now! Either way, Cooper would've had to have been aged, or we get what we had. And I think this option has more emotional connection with Tony as Slattery is physically closer to the father he lost.
Slattery looks great for his age too tbh...

My fiancee kept saying how great everyone not named Paltrow looked lol
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Apr 2019, 11:29

Spectral Knight wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 04:46
tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 00:24
The Ancient One and Bruce describe exactly what is happening when she gives him the Time Stone. There are currently three timelines in the MCU.
1. The main one
2. The "Loki gets the Space Stone" one
3. The "Thanos and his army are destroyed before the events of GotG" one

There would be additional timelines for the following events:
1. Bruce takes the Time Stone (Pre-Doctor Strange)
2. Steve takes the Mind Stone (Avengers 1)
3. The Power and Soul stones are taken (Pre-GotG and Whenever)
4. The Space Stone is taken (Post Agent Carter)
5. The Reality Stone and Mjolnir are taken (Thor 2)

Steve goes back and replaces the stones taken from those timelines. Those are no longer divergement because the stones were replaced before they were taken. This is why they don't stop Thanos from fulfilling his plan. They just undo it in the present. They can't go back and undo what Thanos has done in the past because it would create an additional timeline.
I'm not convinced that Steve can stop all of these divergences...without it creating further alternate realities...he cannot replace the Stones before they were taken (that would leave 2 Stones in each location - which clearly would ring alarm bells and consequently a divergence) so has to replace them after they've been taken, but he can't return after they have been taken (as that's in an alternate future to that divergence) but has to travel back before the original divergences to allow them to occur as happened in Endgame before he can rectify. Now looking at each of those scenarios in turn...

1. Possibly... the Ancient One has through the conversations with Banner an understanding of what's happening and may very well accept the returned Time Stone without consequences. Free pass on this one.
2. For me this alternate reality is the same reality as Loki getting the Space Stone as they were changed in the same returning actions. In this reality Cap has just fought himself and proclaimed to existing Hydra members that he too is Hydra. Now young Cap did initially believe this to be Loki but the reveal of the locket caused a serious issue. None of these things happened first time around (obviously) so whilst the Stones may be returned it doesn't annul the changes that happened as the Stones were stolen so there's still a divergence. The other issue is even if the Space Stone is returned to SHIELD post Battle of NYC, Loki is still around with another copy of the Space Stone. In this instance the Space Stone wasn't removed from the timeline, just removed from it's prior physical location, and Steve would have no idea where Loki even took the Space Stone to try to account for this loose end, but in either case he's no longer in custody to be returned to Asgard with Thor as per the timeline we have actually seen (MCU Prime). I do see that the Mind Stone could be replaced much more easily though.
3. Could the Power Stone be returned? Possibly but to when? Quill has to steal it otherwise there's a divergence from MCU Prime. But Quill has just been knocked out by Nebula and War Machine, and Nebula has interacted through her cybernetics with past Nebula. So Steve doesn't just have to return the Power Stone so that Quill can grab it, but he has to prune those branches, but he can't as we know that's happened too (as we saw in the events of Endgame and that cannot be changed even if it did happen in a temporarily alternate reality). I've no idea how this could be resolved.
4. See no issue with Steve creeping back to returning the Space Stone some time after 1970 but before Mar-Vell starts Project Pegasus. Free pass on this one. Can't work out what's going on with the Soul Stone, as it doesn't seem to be stored in a conventional way, but give you a free pass here.
5. Mjolnir can be replaced easily enough in without too many consequences. Not sure how the Reality Stone can be re-implanted into Jane sometime after Rocket does his business and before the rest of Dark World happened as we saw it.

It's the consequential effects of what happened when the Power Stone was stolen and the chaos leading up to Loki stealing the Space Stone that makes me think Steve couldn't have always gone back and rectified the timeline. Some of those divergences HAD to happen precisely because this DID happen. We saw them happen. However we also saw they didn't happen (MCU Prime).

See to me given that time travel can replace you mere seconds after the thing happens and the stones themselves have power too to assist him. So while there is a possibility of each moment being a divergent timeline, like it was explained that’s okay just as long as the stones are there to keep them from splintering into “the darkest” timelines.

And because in my mind the proto-SHIELD lab is the furthest back in time and one of the easiest to replace the stone for, that’s still the MCU and no divergent timeline is created. It is here where Steve eventually meets back with Peggy (I couldn’t tell from the cars if there dance was in the 50s or 60s) and lives out his life. That’s what me, my fiancee and our kids all came to a conclusion happened.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 30 Apr 2019, 12:07

It becomes Legends of Tomorrow with a much bigger budget & a wider range of canon characters.
Ant-Man explains that his five years trapped in the Quantum Realm only felt like five hours to him. From this the Avengers extrapolate that traversing the Quantum Realm would allow them to travel back in time to collect the Infinity Stones before Thanos. This plan doesn’t compute. Just because Scott perceived the flow of time differently while subatomic doesn’t mean it can be used as a method for time travel. (Janet Van Dyne aged more than thirty-one hours whilst trapped there.)

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 30 Apr 2019, 12:53

tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 00:24

5. The Reality Stone and Mjolnir are taken (Thor 2)
Ah! That's why Steve has Mjolnir at the end! I was thinking about this last night, and worried there was an Alt-MCU where Thor was without Mjolnir from the middle of Dark World.

I still think the Cap-wields-Mjolnir bit was overdone. But at least it fills a need for a streamlined way to get it back to its home.

I'm telling y'all, the only way to avoid this morass of divergent timelines is for there to be a grace period in which the past can be disturbed but not too much without a new timeline being created. It's the simplest most elegant solution. It also allows writers to play with time travel that has stakes. If the past can't be changed, then there are no stakes. And if a divergent timeline results no matter what, there are no stakes because there will always be both the better and the worse outcome.

Instead, the hero has to accomplish the mission without screwing up the past, which gives the story something to lean on. And since that's consistent with how the Ancient Once treated giving up the Time Stone, it has narrative support in the canon.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Flapflop » 30 Apr 2019, 13:00

Very interesting interview with the writers of Ifinity War and Endgame about the choices that were made and stuf that happened(for both movies) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/movi ... swers.html
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 30 Apr 2019, 13:02

Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 22:12

The problem with this theory, though, is that the Ancient One agreed to let Bruce take the gem. If the very instant someone comes back generates a divergent timeline, then the ancient one's logic fails. When Steve came back to return the time stone, a new reality would be generated: one where he did, and one where he didn't. The Ancient One, knowing this, would then not be able to give the stone to Bruce, because one of her two futures would be without the Stone.
The Ancient One states that letting him take their gem would doom her timeline while saving theirs. Them being back in the past already branched the timeline. If they return the gem back to the moment they took it, it just doesn't branch it in a catastrophic fashion.

If Cap had been there the whole time, then there's gonna be a real big issue when Thanos and the Black Order vanish in 2014.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Apr 2019, 13:10

EphemeristX wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 13:02
Nu-D wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 22:12

The problem with this theory, though, is that the Ancient One agreed to let Bruce take the gem. If the very instant someone comes back generates a divergent timeline, then the ancient one's logic fails. When Steve came back to return the time stone, a new reality would be generated: one where he did, and one where he didn't. The Ancient One, knowing this, would then not be able to give the stone to Bruce, because one of her two futures would be without the Stone.
The Ancient One states that letting him take their gem would doom her timeline while saving theirs. Them being back in the past already branched the timeline. If they return the gem back to the moment they took it, it just doesn't branch it in a catastrophic fashion.

If Cap had been there the whole time, then there's gonna be a real big issue when Thanos and the Black Order vanish in 2014.
See but that’s what different about how NuD and I took it.

The Black order vanishing is a new thing, different, so it changes the timeline thus creating a divergence. Because you’re right (I saw it again), any changes to the past creates a divergent timeline (like Gruenwald’s rules). But Cap in the past isn’t a change, what we’re saying is that he was always in the past. Meaning that Cap was always supposed to have this journey, it’s the Thing as Blackbeard aspect of time-travel.
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EphemeristX
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 30 Apr 2019, 13:11

Predestination doesn't actually fit in with the infinite branching theory, though. At some point, there has to be an undisturbed timeline where Cap didn't go back. If that Cap had 'always' been there, then, by definition, it cannot be 'our' Cap.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 30 Apr 2019, 14:24

EphemeristX wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 13:11
Predestination doesn't actually fit in with the infinite branching theory, though. At some point, there has to be an undisturbed timeline where Cap didn't go back. If that Cap had 'always' been there, then, by definition, it cannot be 'our' Cap.
Look those are the rules Gruenwald created back in the day (another example involves the Two-Gun Kid) lol...and they appear to apply here just as well. He stated that you had really only two types of time travel: 1)the predestination type and the 2)traveling to different universes not your actual past type...it works for me lol...I guess your mileage just varies lol
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 30 Apr 2019, 14:32

Milkshake08 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 05:02
OK I loved this for many reasons (Nat's fate aside - that was honestly crap) but one thing none of you guys has mentioned that is really, really poorly thought out time jump storytelling...

WHY ARE SPIDER-MAN'S FRIENDS STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL. WHY ARE THEY ALL GOING ON A HIGH SCHOOL FIELD TRIP IN THE NEXT MOVIE. It's been 5 years and they were all sophomores. They would be in college, while he would be back in high school.
I hate to dip into spoiler territory, but do we know for sure all of them are back? I don't think we've seen Liz Allen in a trailer yet have we? Supposing Liz did not get dusted that means just Ned, Flash, and MJ did for sure. And the same number of people central to Hawkeye's life also got dusted. I'm always eager to look for no-prizes, and you could argue there was some kind of cosmic formula used that centered more on the loved ones of earth's heroes.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 30 Apr 2019, 14:38

Nu-D wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 12:53
tokenBG1009 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 00:24

5. The Reality Stone and Mjolnir are taken (Thor 2)
...there are no stakes because there will always be both the better and the worse outcome.

Instead, the hero has to accomplish the mission without screwing up the past, which gives the story something to lean on. And since that's consistent with how the Ancient Once treated giving up the Time Stone, it has narrative support in the canon.
Your way is more dramatic, and works for the story so I won't tell you are wrong. But the way Quantum Physics/String Theory works (which is exactly how they laid it out in the film) there literally IS always a better and worse outcome. In fact it's an infinite number of outcomes. Somewhere, there's a universe where Cap never got frozen in ice and thus Thanos won during the battle of New York.

In the end, it was kind of silly for them to berate Back to the Future in the dialogue, because for all their psuedo-scientific talk, time travel is still just as silly a notion in this film as when Marty McFly did it. You just have to go with it or not.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Magik84 » 30 Apr 2019, 14:55

Anna Raven wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 14:32
Milkshake08 wrote:
30 Apr 2019, 05:02
OK I loved this for many reasons (Nat's fate aside - that was honestly crap) but one thing none of you guys has mentioned that is really, really poorly thought out time jump storytelling...

WHY ARE SPIDER-MAN'S FRIENDS STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL. WHY ARE THEY ALL GOING ON A HIGH SCHOOL FIELD TRIP IN THE NEXT MOVIE. It's been 5 years and they were all sophomores. They would be in college, while he would be back in high school.
I hate to dip into spoiler territory, but do we know for sure all of them are back? I don't think we've seen Liz Allen in a trailer yet have we? Supposing Liz did not get dusted that means just Ned, Flash, and MJ did for sure. And the same number of people central to Hawkeye's life also got dusted. I'm always eager to look for no-prizes, and you could argue there was some kind of cosmic formula used that centered more on the loved ones of earth's heroes.
Well didn't Liz Allen move away with her mom at end of Homecoming, so I was assuming she wouldn't be back anyway.
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