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Avengers 4

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Nu-D
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 28 Apr 2019, 12:32

Blackcyclops wrote:
28 Apr 2019, 02:55
Kudos to Chris Evans to doing for Captain America what no actor has yet to do for Cyclops: make him feel like a complete character instead of the “lame” foil to the “cool” characters.

Also shout out to Amy Pond (sorry Karen) for giving Nebula an actual arc...more of one than Storm ever had.

Paul Rudd and Don Cheadle are comedic geniuses lol...why fox never get us jokes in x-men films?


Sorry guys I just watched Apocalypse for the first time five minutes ago lol
Because Fox’s X-Men films are gray and dull and lusterless. Fox never understood that superheroes are supposed to be fun, and you’re supposed to like the characters.

Yes, Nebula. She really rose to the front here, didn’t she? For some reason I wrote her off after the first GotG as a typical boring MCU villain. And then I failed to notice that they really worked to develop her in GotG2 and Infinity War. It wasn’t until I re-watched IW in preparation for this that she stood out to me as a possible hero and appealing character. I think I really underrated her, and will have to go back and watch the Guardians franchise with clearer eyes.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 28 Apr 2019, 12:37

I will say it works best as a second half the full story. It’s kinda like The Two towers...it was good but much better as a companion to The Fellowship of the Ring.

I don’t know, I really really liked it and felt moved. It’s a worthy ending to basically 1 story told over 11 years. RDJ and Marvel basically got to do 1 huge comic run with Iron Man lol...this was there Claremont x Uncanny X-Men if you get what I’m saying lol
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 28 Apr 2019, 13:16

Sorry for the multiple disorganized posts. There’s a lot in this movie, and my thoughts are not completely orderly.

I thought it was a good narrative choice for Cap to wield Mjolnir, but they made a mistake by having it happen off screen. The first time you see it, Thor is being defeated and Mjolnir comes to his rescue. My first thought was, hey, it’s like Strange’s cloak, acting of its own volition. Only after a couple of seconds did I realice Cap threw it. I also thought it was a mistake for Cap to keep using it. I felt it undercut Thor’s uniqueness. It should have been something Steve does when the chips are down, but is exhausting and not sustainable.

Wanda! I forgot to mention how much I really love Wanda in these movies. She’s a character I never cared for in the comics. But her inner anger and sheer power always blow me away. I always have the sense that inside she’s a boiling cauldron. I love it.

I was also pleased Hope got a nod as an Avenger, not just as Scott’s sidekick/girlfriend, when she spoke directly to Cap and took initiative. I think she could be a good yang to Carol’s yin in the next iteration of Avengers. Carol has Steve’s heroism and Tony’s power; Jan has Tony’s brains and cynicism, but Steve’s down-to-earth qualities. If they could lighten both up a little, they might make a good core-duo for the next Avengers.

I disliked that Clint was the test case for time travel. I get that he needed to see his family in the past for his character arc. But Ant-Man made a big deal of how dangerous the Quantum Realm is, and how you can be lost and go mad. Since Scott’s been there, as a tactical matter it only makes sense for Scott to be the test case to go back. You know he can handle it.

I also thought Potts’ turn as Rescue was misplaced. It was fan service without a sensible in-movie justification. At least they could have shown Rescue on a more low-key mission first, to establish some degree of ability to handle herself.

I don’t like Spiderman on a team. He takes up too much attention.

Anthony Hopkins sort of got shafted didn’t he?

I was confused by the random teenager at Tony’s funeral. I guess that was the actor who played the kid he befriended in IM 3, which is fine as far as it goes. But how were we supposed to know that? And if I hadn’t re-watched IM 3 a month ago, who would have even remembered that kid existed?

I would have like to have seen not-Kate Bishop and Cassie Lang hanging together in the funeral scene. Even a line or two of dialogue where they’re watching their parents and discussing/learning what it means to be a hero.

But it won’t be Kate Bishop, which is disappointing. The relationship between Kate and Clint is special, and it’s emphatically not a daughter-father relationship. Dad-Clint just can’t be in the same relationship with Hawkeye Jr. as batchellor-Clint. It’s not possible.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 28 Apr 2019, 13:18

Blackcyclops wrote:
28 Apr 2019, 12:37
I will say it works best as a second half the full story. It’s kinda like The Two towers...it was good but much better as a companion to The Fellowship of the Ring.

I don’t know, I really really liked it and felt moved. It’s a worthy ending to basically 1 story told over 11 years. RDJ and Marvel basically got to do 1 huge comic run with Iron Man lol...this was there Claremont x Uncanny X-Men if you get what I’m saying lol
Oh, I definitely agree. But the fact that it’s a the final chapter meant that it had some limitations as a standalone movie (even putting aside that you have to know what’s been going on before you walk in the door).

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 28 Apr 2019, 13:23

Funny cause I think Carol is funny...she isn’t Paul Rudd funny (honestly, every one of his jokes had the whole theater, both times cracking up) but she has a dry wit that I love.

Also can I say how happy I was to see Jarvis? Doesn’t that make him the only TV-born character to make it to the films?
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 28 Apr 2019, 13:38

I'm really interested in what the scene where Cap returns the Soul Stone would have gone like, and finding Red Skull there.

Also, anyone stick around after the credits to hear the post credit sound. I didn't and I'm curious what it sounded like and what it could mean

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 28 Apr 2019, 13:54

I think the Red Skull as the Gatekeeper to the Soul Stone needed exploring more. Does that mean pre-First Avenger there was no Gatekeeper? Also like Gibbering asks, what would Cap do finding him there, and how do you even replace this Stone?

I can definitely see the shaping of a YA team up before long, Cassie is now the right age, Shuri is in that mid to late teens bracket, we know Hawkeye will feature Kate Bishop... MCU Peter could fit in with this group (or an MCU Miles if he survived the original snap and has grown up a little).

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 28 Apr 2019, 14:20

A 5 year time skip opens up alot of stuff...like how old do we estimate Monica to be now? She was like 10-12 in 1995? So if we think she’s 10 at youngest, so she was born in 1985 and that means she’s 38 now if she wasn’t snapped. If she was snapped, she’s still 33...so she’s there.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 03:15

I cried more in this movie than I have in a while and for all the reasons.

Five Years Later... I didn't see that one coming. Monica has to be mid-20s to early-30s now right? Captain Marvel 2 definitely has to give us Spectrum!

Knowing what was coming for Clint and his family made it worse. There was this shred of hope that maybe, just maybe, it was taking place post snap and they'd been saved. Unfortunately, no. It seemed almost unfair to lose his entire family like that. I'm kind of happy SOMEONE went the route of trying to even the scales. Yes, Thanos killed indiscriminately, but it almost seems unfair that terrible people continued to live and so many innocents died in their place. Given his history in the movies, I'm not surprised it ended up being Clint, though I wouldn't have been surprised if it'd been Natasha.

Speaking of Natasha, it was nice to basically see her as the leader of the Avengers. Steve had basically hung it up, but she wanted to keep fighting for those left behind. Part of me had a gut reaction that she was basically fridged, but after thinking about it I don't mind her death as much. Both of them were willing to die for everyone. It had to be one of them. So why not Natasha? Maybe Clint's actions will result in his daughter actually being Kate Bishop as they change their name and location to attempt to hide from the gangs he surely pissed off while running around as Ronin? Thus why it was Natasha and not him.

It was also really nice to see how much Nebula had changed since her debut in Guardians. In GotG2 we saw that she wanted a family, and with time she finally built one for herself and I appreciated that kind of growth. I never really liked GotG2 and most people told me it was a movie about family, but I'd say Endgame was by far the better movie about family. The gaining of a family for some. The loss of family for others. It just hit so much harder for me than GotG2 ever did.

Brie Larson is continually growing on me as Captain Marvel. She was great in her movie and she's really starting to look the part more to me. I wish she had a bigger role in the movie than she did, but she made a very good point that there were planets across the universe dealing with the same thing Earth was. They needed heroes too.

Tony Stark gave us the MCU and he died saving the MCU. I cried during that scene. I cried during other scenes, but I cried during that one the most. I could barely breathe. He was amazing the entire movie, especially when you realize he's the one who really had almost nothing to gain by fighting back. He'd already dealt with the loss of Peter. He only had things to lose at this point, but he couldn't not be a hero. He had to help. Loved seeing Rescue, though I question exactly how non-lethal those lasers were, lol.

Guess I can do a Thor cosplay now. Y'know, except I'm black, but I've got the body for it! Surely we're getting Thor in GotG3, right? I have a weird desire to have Thor shout "Yas, Queen!" at Valkyrie when he named her leader of Asgard. A-Force assembling was a fantastic scene, but... it also felt weird? What Nu-D said was pretty much my reaction. How did we have that wide of a shot and no dudes? I understand the point of the scene. I loved the scene. I hope we get more of that later. It just felt funny.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Northstar404 » 29 Apr 2019, 03:36

Saw it on Friday, I thought it was a pretty good movie. Although I do wish that we could have gotten a scene with Carol and Fury reuniting though.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 29 Apr 2019, 03:53

Northstar404 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 03:36
Saw it on Friday, I thought it was a pretty good movie. Although I do wish that we could have gotten a scene with Carol and Fury reuniting though.
I was really expecting Fury to show up for the big battle in a helicarrier and was a little bit disappointed that he didn't...Alternatively I also wanted a scene where the new gauntlet gets snatched up by some tentacles and the camera pans up to Fury holding Goose, who's swallowed the gauntlet :D

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 04:35

As I saw a picture of it, I'm reminded that Loki just noped out of there and we got no follow up on that. I know we're getting a TV series so they had to find a way to bring him back, but it's kind of irresponsible of them to just forget about the stone like that.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 29 Apr 2019, 05:13

tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 04:35
As I saw a picture of it, I'm reminded that Loki just noped out of there and we got no follow up on that. I know we're getting a TV series so they had to find a way to bring him back, but it's kind of irresponsible of them to just forget about the stone like that.
It could be brushed away that Cap went back and stopped Loki stealing the cube when he returned the other stones. Though even if he did doesn't that just create a new branching universe? They can't change the past, just create new worlds, is what I took from that.

Presumably there's also a timeline where Thanos and his armies all vanished in 2014, because they time travelled to the future then died.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Spectral Knight » 29 Apr 2019, 08:10

Loki vanishing with the Space Stone creates a new alternate universe...

Cap (in theory) should travel back to 1970 to return the Space Stone, but also return to close to NYC 2012 to return the Mind Stone and the Time Stone. Now if he could prevent Loki's escape I'm sure he'd try, but given that there would be now 3 versions of Captain America in that timeline, alongside 2 of Tony Stark, and 2 Hulks and it was already carnage with the two prior Captains fighting each other, I think there's very little pruning of branches that can be done in that timeline as the first time-travelling Cap has already created too much disruption with the 'Hail Hydra' line etc.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by EphemeristX » 29 Apr 2019, 09:16

Nebula's older self died and her current self survived, so, like others said, I don't think you can really go back and alter the past in the MCU. The one holdover would be Old Cap, but I think he could have grown old in an alternate timeline and then traveled back to ours once his Peggy died.

I also think his returning of the Soul Stone may have brought Widow back, but she just decided to stay hidden for a time. I think the BW movie could be both a past and present movie in the shades of that recent book starring Clint and Bucky who were looking for her.

The post-credits sound was just Tony banging on that anvil from the first Iron Man. It wasn't significant to the plot but it was a nice denouement for the first three phases of the MCU and Tony Stark's character arc.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Gibbering Fool » 29 Apr 2019, 10:23

I have to give credit to the film for regularly defying my expectations. I really did not expect them to find Thanos (and kill him him!) so soon, or for him to destroy the stones. I didn't expect Captain Marvel to play such a minuscule role in the film. When Tony was dying I kept expecting Captain Marvel to pick up the gauntlet and save him, mostly because of Marvel's reputation for cheaping out on deaths, but they stuck with it.

I really loved this film. I loved the spotlight Nebula got, though I was a little disappointed she never got to wield the gauntlet like she did in the comic. I loved that Ant-Man, who's one of my favourites, really became an MVP rather than an joke. Conversely I wasn't a fan of how much of a joke Thor became, especially after the badass he was in the last film.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Apr 2019, 11:56

Yeah see I took the Ancient One’s (and the Hulk) explanation about time travel in the MCU is that any actions that could change the future in the past create alternate timelines. That’s why they were supposed to return the stones to make sure dark timelines don’t splinter off.

So when Cap returns them, he basically resets the timeline so that their main timeline occurs as it did beforehand. So there is a timeline where Nebula and all of Thanos’s forces are dead. There’s also a timeline that Loki escapes (perhaps his solo TV series?).

Now with Cap I believe that we have a paradox situation where this whole time Cap had always been there living his regular life. And he knew to show up right there all those years later. So Cap was always meant to live out his life that way.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 29 Apr 2019, 14:27

Anthony Hopkins sort of got shafted didn’t he?
From my understanding, he's very curmudgeonly and did not want to do a cameo. He's done with Marvel.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 29 Apr 2019, 14:56

EphemeristX wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 09:16
The post-credits sound was just Tony banging on that anvil from the first Iron Man. It wasn't significant to the plot but it was a nice denouement for the first three phases of the MCU and Tony Stark's character arc.
Ooh, good use of a great word.

I’m assuming that everything that has happened has created a new timeline, except Cap staying in the past. I’m going with the assumption that Old Man Steve has been in the MCU all along, but lived a quiet life out of the spotlight. Peggy was always married to him. When young Steve went to see dying Peggy, she mentioned that she had a husband, but not who. It was always Steve. That means Steve and Peggy might have kids. It also makes the bit with Sharon maybe a little icky (maybe not; she’s a niece which means she might not be related to Steve. But still she grew up with uncle Steve, right?).

If I was George LucasKevin Feige, I might doctor the death scene a bit on future releases of the movie to make it fit the Endgame reveal a little better. But I don’t think it’s seriously contradicted.

Assuming Steve returned the stones in such a way that nobody in the original timelines ever missed them. Then we have:
(1) The main MCU
(2) The MCU where Thanos and his armies left in 2014.
(3) The MCU where Loki escaped during A1 with the tesseract.

All the others were left unchanged, right?
—Steve gets the Space stone back to Starlord before he fights Ronan’s minions.
—The ether is returned into Portman’s body.
—The soul stone is returned to Vormir where Thanos can kill Gamora to get it.
—The time stone is returned to the Ancient One in New York.
—The mind stone is returned to Shield in the scepter, to be used to make Vision.

(For the record, this post represents the first time ever that I could list all the stones and their respective stories from memory without looking it up; it’s taken me this long to get it all sorted out!)

It’s awfully handy Clint and Nat were sent to get the soul stone. Since you have to sacrifice “what you love most,” it it had been Rocket and War Machine, neither would have had anything handy to toss over the cliff. It’s also handy that Clint’s family were dead, so Nat could be his sacrifice.

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Apr 2019, 15:46

Question: was Agent 13 ever explicitly called Peggy’s niece?
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Anna Raven » 29 Apr 2019, 15:48

Blackcyclops wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 15:46
Question: was Agent 13 ever explicitly called Peggy’s niece?
I think in Civil War, yeah? Great-niece, though.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 29 Apr 2019, 15:50

Blackcyclops wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 15:46
Question: was Agent 13 ever explicitly called Peggy’s niece?
According to Wikipedia, in Civil War she tells Steve that Peggy was her great-aunt. So a little less icky, since she might not have really been close to Geezer Steve, or even met him.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by sambadaemon » 29 Apr 2019, 15:51

I must have missed something significant in the movie, since there was so much. What "2 words" are you guys talking about?

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Re: Avengers 4

Post by tokenBG1009 » 29 Apr 2019, 16:10

So, at this point, is it kind of a given that Gamora isn't in Guardians 3? Unless they make the weird decision to have a movie that comes out almost two years after the movie with her death take place BEFORE that. At that point will the Guardians ever catch up to the MCU? That would mean they'd forever be stuck quite a few years behind the main timeline.
sambadaemon wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 15:51
I must have missed something significant in the movie, since there was so much. What "2 words" are you guys talking about?
I'm not sure why we're spoiler tagging the line when it's clearly the most recognizable phrase connected to the Avengers, but I'm going with "Avengers Assemble" at this point.
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Re: Avengers 4

Post by Nu-D » 29 Apr 2019, 16:14

tokenBG1009 wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 16:10
So, at this point, is it kind of a given that Gamora isn't in Guardians 3? Unless they make the weird decision to have a movie that comes out almost two years after the movie with her death take place BEFORE that. At that point will the Guardians ever catch up to the MCU? That would mean they'd forever be stuck quite a few years behind the main timeline.
sambadaemon wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 15:51
I must have missed something significant in the movie, since there was so much. What "2 words" are you guys talking about?
I'm not sure why we're spoiler tagging the line when it's clearly the most recognizable phrase connected to the Avengers, but I'm going with "Avengers Assemble" at this point.
Based on the end of Endgame, I predict GotG3 will be Asguardians of the Galaxy, with Thor. Whether the movie will include young Gamora, I do not know. That was left unclear. But I don’t think there’s any reason to expect it will be a prequel to Infinity War. So if they’re going to include Gamora, it’ll either be young Gamora or the story will have to involve resurrecting the original.

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