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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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Anna Raven
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Anna Raven » 31 Dec 2017, 19:55

If you pay attention, Finn and Poe are discussing the plan to disable the tracker vs. evacuation loudly over the radio, and Del Toro is given a moment where you can tell he is listening in on the discussion. So he in fact did know the plan.
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Cyke
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Cyke » 01 Jan 2018, 01:12

Blackcyclops wrote:
30 Dec 2017, 17:32
That’s kind of a cop-out answer to bring in the prequels...by that standard, Johnson can say “hey in 20 years I’ll drop some in-between-quels to fully flesh out Snoke” lol
No, that's a fact. I understand the relationship and the manipulations between Palpatine and Anakin because of those films. All I know here is that I'm told that Palpatine-wannabe corrupted Vader-wannabe so they could rule Empire-wannabe.

But I suppose that should be acceptable since they're pirating the exact same story and character beats anyway.
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Gomurr the Ancient
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Gomurr the Ancient » 01 Jan 2018, 13:42

I think the main difference between the lack of solid info in the original trilogy on Palpatine, Vader's fall, the Republic's fall, etc and the lack of information on Snoke, Kylo's fall, etc is that the former was, at the time, purely exposition that established the setting, whereas the latter is being treated as if it is only setting exposition, but is also significant character development information.

We don't need to know details about the prequels in the original trilogy because we don't have a change in characters or setting that requires explanation. No one asked 'wait, how could the Republic have fallen, it was so powerful' or 'how could Kenobi have failed in training Vader, he was such a good teacher' because all we know about the Republic is it falls and all we know about Kenobi as a teacher is it didn't go so well with Vader. We have no baseline to cause us to question the situation and so only need to know enough to understand the current situation. We don't feel we need an explanation for how there's a dark side wielding Emperor because we have nothing indicating there shouldn't be.

That's not the case with the sequel trilogy. Now, I don't really have a problem with any developments in the sequels, and I'm not particularly bothered by the lack of information. BUT all that Snoke, Kylo, First Order background we're not getting isn't just setting exposition, it's also major character changes for Luke, Leia, and Han. And following the original and prequel trilogies, we knew a) there's only two Sith and b) they both died in Return of the Jedi. We have nothing in the films indicating there are Force users outside the Jedi or Sith. The appearance and prominence of a super powerful dark side Snoke guy is a change in that understanding of the setting.

The original trio are not the main characters of the new trilogy, so I can see why a director might decide we really don't need to know more about how and why Luke failed and got to where he is now, etc., but it's naive to think if a known character is changed significantly that some in the audience won't feel an explanation is due. If a big change was made to Rose, like she's with the First Order in episode 9 and we're just told something happened and Kylo got her to go evil, the fact that she's not one of the core trio for episode 7 reasonably would not satisfy a significant portion of the audience.

And none of this is saying any of the things in these new movies can't exist or shouldn't or whatever. Just that the background info of the sequels is of a slightly different nature than the background info of the originals, because it changes pre-existing characters and settings instead of just establishing them, and it's that difference that I think elicits the demand for more explanation by some viewers.


... On another topic. Can someone explain to me what is Rey's motivation for, like, everything she's doing? I am pretty unclear about why she's fighting for the Resistance, why she super-hated Kylo Ren at the start of this movie, why she was determined to bring him back to the light, etc. I thought her primary goal was to get back to Jakku and wait for her family?
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by tokenBG1009 » 01 Jan 2018, 22:01

Rey is basically destiny-incarnate. Her entire character arc is things falling into place to put her in position to be where she is. She's innately a good person, same as Kylo for instance, but where he was corrupted by Snoke she was found by Finn. This led to her meeting Han and attaching to a new father-figure, Kylo mentions this in TFA. The Resistance basically becomes a new family to her.

She hates Kylo because he killed Han, her new "father." She wants to bring him back to the light because she can feel the conflict within him. It's Empire Strikes Back 2.0 with Luke and Vader.

She basically gives up on her quest to return to Jakku because she realizes that her parents are never coming back. The Resistance is all she has now. This is why she and Finn are so close. Both had nothing and they find each other. It's why, while I don't have an issue with Rose herself, I don't like the potential pairing of Rose/Finn.

I have no excuse for why Snoke exists outside of the fact it's always been part of Star Wars Canon that there are Force Users who aren't known. It would be nice to know more about him and at some point we'll get a book to explain his back story. The same as we did with Palpatine.

The First Order though? They exist of what remains of the Empire. They're basically the new, and less competent, Thrawn. The Resistance is, or was, a secret arm of the Republic. The Republic didn't want to fight the First Order in another war when they were less than 30 years old. Leia realized they needed to fight, formed the Resistance and the Republic secretly supported them. What the First Order did was basically drop a nuke on Washington DC. The Republic still exists, but all of it's leadership is basically dead at this point.

This is all information pulled from the movies. It's been explained in some way or another.

And, yes, it is a cop-out to pull in the Prequels. If you only watch the OT then Vader and Palpatine are villains with almost no back story. We knew as much about them as we did Kylo and Snoke. Kylo (Vader) was trained by Luke (Kenobi) and fell to the dark side under the control of Snoke (Palpatine) to serve the First Order (Empire). On the flip side, in two movies we know MORE about Kylo than we did Vader.

Yes, they are rehashing the story, but this isn't new in Star Wars. 1-4-7 all cover the same large beats. 2-5-8 do as well. "It's like poetry. It rhymes." They've carried this quote by Lucas into the present.

Part of me wants there to be large gaps between trilogies, but at the same time I think we'll avoid these repeats if there isn't so large a gap.
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Anna Raven
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Anna Raven » 01 Jan 2018, 22:45

Great write up token.
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Cyke
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Cyke » 05 Jan 2018, 18:20

Yes, in the OT, we knew next to nothing of the backstory of Vader and Palpatine and that was fine, we could accept that as, Gomurr points out, that was the status quo at that time, with nothing to compare it against. '

But expectations have changed now, thanks in no small part to the prequels. Lucas at least had some broad outline of their backstory relationship and he expanded upon those within those prequels. We see the level of influence, corruption, and manipulation between both that lead to the downfall of both the Jedi and the Republic. Here in these new films, because we have a similar type of relationship between two similar figures, we are again asked to accept the same similar premise as before.

But without any context for this new relationship. We have the Vader/Palpatine relationship to compare & contrast against and it's only reasonable to expect that such comparisons will inevitably be made yet we are given nothing to do so with. Ben Solo has a growing darkness within him but we're shown little examples of that beyond Luke had a bad feeling about it. Yes, he destroyed Luke's academy but that seemed the culmination instead of the match for his turn. What else did he do prior to that to indicate such a growing feeling or resentment?

Snoke's influence upon him took what shape or form? For how long? How did the two meet? How did Snoke rise to power within the First Order? Little backstory, little explanation yet I'm asked to accept the same consequence. It's frustrating because they say their goal is something new, something different but they aren't showing what is new and different about this particular relationship. I think this deserves some measure of explanation beyond what it simply stated here. And if that explanation occurs elsewhere, whether novels or comics or TV, fine but I haven't seen any hints of that yet.
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ev82
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by ev82 » 05 Jan 2018, 23:10

I agree with Cyke, especially since when the OT came out it was known that it was the middle of the story so there was a level of understand that they will have to wait for the first part. This is the end of the Trilogy, unless they do a "Snoke: A Star Wars Story" then it really should have been told here.
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Gibbering Fool
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Gibbering Fool » 14 Jan 2018, 09:35

I think the real unanswered question of the film is why Ben had to live in a little house away from the main temple. Maybe that's why he fell to the dark side... ;)

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Wings
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Wings » 14 Jan 2018, 18:27

I don't see any reason why Snoke's backstory can't be explained in Episode IX, if it needs to be. I didn't have a problem with what was done/not done with it here. There's also no need for this to be the end of Snoke's direct influence given the existence of Force ghosts.There's plenty of avenues.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 14 Jan 2018, 22:48

It's about time we got some Sith ghosts.

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Gibbering Fool
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Gibbering Fool » 15 Jan 2018, 09:47

Anyone else notice that Force Projection Luke left no red footprints in the salt? That and the fact he had a blue light saber, not green, had me thinking he wasn't real.

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Anna Raven
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Anna Raven » 15 Jan 2018, 14:37

Gibbering Fool wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 09:47
Anyone else notice that Force Projection Luke left no red footprints in the salt? That and the fact he had a blue light saber, not green, had me thinking he wasn't real.
He also looked a tad younger to me, less salt and pepper in his beard and hair.
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Gibbering Fool
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Gibbering Fool » 15 Jan 2018, 20:37

Anna Raven wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 14:37
Gibbering Fool wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 09:47
Anyone else notice that Force Projection Luke left no red footprints in the salt? That and the fact he had a blue light saber, not green, had me thinking he wasn't real.
He also looked a tad younger to me, less salt and pepper in his beard and hair.
I thought it odd that he cut his hair and scrubbed up but then figured he didn't want to see his sister lookingvlike a hobo. Then they revealled he wasnt real and it all made sense

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