Welcome to unstablemolecules.com, the discussion home for mightyavengers.net, uncanon.com and uncannyxmen.net!

New Mutants film announced!

Did you see the Dr. Strange Movie from the 70's? Me neither, but I'm sure someone did. Come here to talk about Movies and TV
User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4762
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Anna Raven » 08 Jan 2020, 20:48

EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:41

Best version of Magma was in the X-Men Legends video game haha. Hint: she basically replaced Shadowcat.
I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
X-Men Editorial 2: Wolverine | Shadowcat | Beast | Deadpool | Sabretooth | Puck | Pixie | Toad | Prodigy | Eques | Vange Whedon |Snowbird | Wolfsbane
X-Men Generations: Rogue | X-23 | Colossus | Juggernaut | Bruiser | Blink | Scout

User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2829
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Nu-D » 08 Jan 2020, 21:37

P-90 wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 15:48
Are you effing kidding me, I'm clearly not defending race-swapping because they clearly haven't been race swapped, even if you're unhappy about the actors not being 'dark enough' it's again in no way 'whitewashing' because the actors clearly aren't white.

There have been untold established white characters that have been uncecessarily race-swapped, not just supporting characters but well known characters who literally generations of fans. Just look at the huge number of white characters that have been race swapped in the MCU, let alone live action versions of other Marvel franchises and the properties of other companies. There are too many to list and yet you're complaining about these non white actors not being 'black enough' and labelling it 'whitewashing', that's ridiculous, at best laughable and goes to show the huge blindingly obvious double standard when it comes to race and the casting of established characters.

Somehow the race of a non white character, no matter how minor, is seen as sacrosanct and is met with accusations of racism, cultural appropriation and whitewashing if changed (as we saw with Ben Daimio in the recent Hlelboy movie) yet the race of a white character, even a famous iconic character somehow dosen't matter and when changed, anyone who dares to question such a casting decision immediately gets labelled a bigot. White actors playing Egytptian Gods in 'Gods of Egypt' was said to be racist and cultural appropriation despite them being fictional, famously able to change their apperance and the fact that people in Egypt for the most part didn't care and weren't the ones complaining. Those same people who complained were perfectly fine with black actors playing characters from Norse Mythology in the Thor movies and of course bullied anyone who disagreed with accusations of racism, Norse mythology is part of the cultural heritage of literally millions of people.

And yes I am against the race swapping of established characters, I don't want to see a black Human Torch anymore than I want to see a white Blade or War Machine, in fact I'm against any major change to an established character (race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality etc.) especially if the character has an existing fan base (for instance I was dissapointed that Psylocke didn't have an English accent in X-Men: Apolaypse). Changing characters in such a way is not just disrepectful, but it's often condescending and hypocritcal, most importantly it's completely unnecessary. There are untold non white, non male, non straight characters that could be introduced into live action and obviously there's the possibility of original characters (such as Hancock) but no, instead of using even a small amount of creativity we're given race swapped/gender swapped versions of existing characters, it's just so damn lazy.

I know because I'm not a member of the church of woke and disagree with you on certain issues there's nothing I can say that will convince you that I'm not a nazi or that Trump is my hero and other such ridiculous nonsense, and honestly that's fine I couldn't care less.
Personally I harbour no ill will towards you. There are however a couple of things I've noticed about your posts that provoke the occasional eye roll or audible sigh.
1) No matter the actual content of a post/coversation, yoyu find a way to connect it to something about race or how it somehow negatively effects non white people. It's like how Howard in Big Bang could take any topic and turn it to remind someone of how he went into space. It's actually quite a talent.
2) The fact that you end almost every sentence you post with 'LOL', seriously look back through your post history, everytime I see it I'm like 'really? are you really laughing out loud?'
Quoted for preservation.
He/him/his

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 20434
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Jan 2020, 21:56

Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48
EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:41

Best version of Magma was in the X-Men Legends video game haha. Hint: she basically replaced Shadowcat.
I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
Anna you watched A Different World? I love you alil more right now.
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4762
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Anna Raven » 08 Jan 2020, 22:45

Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 21:56
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48
EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46


I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
Anna you watched A Different World? I love you alil more right now.
I was a huge Cosby kid. Of course hindsight is 20/20. :lol:
X-Men Editorial 2: Wolverine | Shadowcat | Beast | Deadpool | Sabretooth | Puck | Pixie | Toad | Prodigy | Eques | Vange Whedon |Snowbird | Wolfsbane
X-Men Generations: Rogue | X-23 | Colossus | Juggernaut | Bruiser | Blink | Scout

User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2829
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Nu-D » 08 Jan 2020, 22:58

Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 21:56
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48
EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46


I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
Anna you watched A Different World? I love you alil more right now.
I had a huge crush on Lisa Bonet, but for some reason I wanted to be the dude with the flip-up round sunglasses.
He/him/his

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 6032
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by tokenBG1009 » 08 Jan 2020, 23:07

Nu-D wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 22:58
Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 21:56
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48


Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
Anna you watched A Different World? I love you alil more right now.
I had a huge crush on Lisa Bonet, but for some reason I wanted to be the dude with the flip-up round sunglasses.
Dwayne Wayne. Creator of the flip phone.

I'd want to be him too because Jasmine Guy is a beautiful woman.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 20434
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Jan 2020, 23:23

tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 23:07
Nu-D wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 22:58
Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 21:56


Anna you watched A Different World? I love you alil more right now.
I had a huge crush on Lisa Bonet, but for some reason I wanted to be the dude with the flip-up round sunglasses.
Dwayne Wayne. Creator of the flip phone.

I'd want to be him too because Jasmine Guy is a beautiful woman.
This cross-cultural connection literally made me actually smile in real life. I love yall so much!!!
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

User avatar
Aeon
Posts: 1016
Joined: 30 Apr 2019, 12:05

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Aeon » 08 Jan 2020, 23:30

I am a skinny white boy who watches Greanleaf.

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 20434
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Jan 2020, 23:32

Aeon wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 23:30
I am a skinny white boy who watches Greanleaf.

A good nighttime soap opera knows no race!
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

LimboMaster
Posts: 138
Joined: 18 Nov 2013, 22:10

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by LimboMaster » 08 Jan 2020, 23:37

My excitement for this thread has really been spoiled. A lot of the posts over the past day on this thread strike me as bullying behavior. It feels like people's opinions/perspectives are being shamed instead of inspiring healthy, respectful discussion.

User avatar
Anna Raven
Posts: 4762
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Anna Raven » 08 Jan 2020, 23:38

Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 23:23
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 23:07
Nu-D wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 22:58


I had a huge crush on Lisa Bonet, but for some reason I wanted to be the dude with the flip-up round sunglasses.
Dwayne Wayne. Creator of the flip phone.

I'd want to be him too because Jasmine Guy is a beautiful woman.
This cross-cultural connection literally made me actually smile in real life. I love yall so much!!!
Let's not forget the greatness of Sinbad. :D
X-Men Editorial 2: Wolverine | Shadowcat | Beast | Deadpool | Sabretooth | Puck | Pixie | Toad | Prodigy | Eques | Vange Whedon |Snowbird | Wolfsbane
X-Men Generations: Rogue | X-23 | Colossus | Juggernaut | Bruiser | Blink | Scout

Red Strings
Posts: 168
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 20:20

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Red Strings » 09 Jan 2020, 00:00

Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48
EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:41

Best version of Magma was in the X-Men Legends video game haha. Hint: she basically replaced Shadowcat.
I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
I literally cannot unhear Magma now as Susie Carmichael from Rugrats, Amara just always has that voice for me, which is really not how I imagine she would actually talk in the comics, but now I kind'a like it.

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 20434
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Jan 2020, 00:13

Red Strings wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 00:00
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48
EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46


I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
I literally cannot unhear Magma now as Susie Carmichael from Rugrats, Amara just always has that voice for me, which is really not how I imagine she would actually talk in the comics, but now I kind'a like it.
Great now that’s whats in my head! I hate all of you lol
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 6032
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by tokenBG1009 » 09 Jan 2020, 00:16

Red Strings wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 00:00
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:48
EphemeristX wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 20:46


I hated her voice, though. I couldn't unhear Elmyra from Tiny Toons.
Haha yeh Cree Summers. I kept hearing her as her character from A Different World. :D
I literally cannot unhear Magma now as Susie Carmichael from Rugrats, Amara just always has that voice for me, which is really not how I imagine she would actually talk in the comics, but now I kind'a like it.
Cree Summers has one of the most distinctive voices in Voice Acting. Once you hear it you'll pick it out pretty much anywhere.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

User avatar
Milkshake08
Posts: 1259
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 23:03

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Milkshake08 » 09 Jan 2020, 05:35

She also did Suzie on Rugrats! A weird choice for Magma in the game, yes, but man did I love that game and love playing as her. I thought the sequel was great too, but needed more X-characters to be playable (like, why'd they get rid of Psylocke, Emma, Magma, and Jubilee? And ADD Iron Man?).

I'll go see this, though I'm not a horror fan (I don't find it scary and frequently find a lot of horror films mind numbingly stupid and poorly directed). It's exciting to see Magik go all out though! And it'll be fun to see these characters on the big screen. However, big, BIG complaint about Cecelia. Y'all know I love the heck out of her and I don't like that they are completely altering her character, and also that she isn't black. Like, wtf? Her hair, the way she's always been drawn and colored, all of that is a clear identifier that she is afro-Latina. Just call this person someone else.

P-90
Posts: 385
Joined: 11 Jul 2014, 02:32

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by P-90 » 09 Jan 2020, 13:58

Milkshake08 wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 05:35
She also did Suzie on Rugrats! A weird choice for Magma in the game, yes, but man did I love that game and love playing as her. I thought the sequel was great too, but needed more X-characters to be playable (like, why'd they get rid of Psylocke, Emma, Magma, and Jubilee? And ADD Iron Man?).

I'll go see this, though I'm not a horror fan (I don't find it scary and frequently find a lot of horror films mind numbingly stupid and poorly directed). It's exciting to see Magik go all out though! And it'll be fun to see these characters on the big screen. However, big, BIG complaint about Cecelia. Y'all know I love the heck out of her and I don't like that they are completely altering her character, and also that she isn't black. Like, wtf? Her hair, the way she's always been drawn and colored, all of that is a clear identifier that she is afro-Latina. Just call this person someone else.
I agree with you about horror movies, I've never found them enjoyable for the same reasons you mentioned. Your final sentense is something I've thought about many times, why bother using the names of established characters if they're not like they are in the books. The most obvious example of this is the MCU version of Flash Thompson, I know some people justify it by saying he's a different type of bully but why use the name at all, just call him something else and there would be no issue. Flash from the books has a great story, from what he started as to what he became (the bullying jock who we learn has a difficult abusive home life who becomes one of Peter's closet friends, becomes a genuine war hero and eventually a super hero in his own right), I don't see any of it happening with the MCU version, which is a shame. I find these casting decisions difficult to understand to be honest, using names of established characters, especially supporting characters will only mean something to actual comic book readers and yet as you stated with Cecelia Reyes, comic book readers will, for the most part want to see the character as they know them from the comics.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2829
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Nu-D » 09 Jan 2020, 14:37

The difference is that the Flash in the MCU occupies the same role as the Flash in 616–he’s the bully in Peter’s class. Continuing the name makes sense to connect the two characters to establish the role using clear signals to the audience. Cecelia, on the other hand, is a very different character with a very different role. Reyes in 616 never, as far as I know, ran an asylum for mutants. There’s no reason to pick this name, as far as I can tell, because the characters are unrelated. Using that name tells us nothing we wouldn’t know already.

As for the casting choices for Cecelia and Roberto, until a few years ago I was totally unaware that there are status aspects to the degree of skin color. I’m white, so I have always had the privilege of being oblivious to the spectrum of experiences of people of color based on skin color, hair texture, etc. This is all new to me.

So when people of color tell me that Roberto was dark skinned, but the casting is too light, and that this is the result of bias against dark-skinned people, I have to take them at their word. I never noticed how dark Roberto was; I just knew he was Brazilian. When people of color tell me that Cecelia’s braids are significant in defining who she is, that’s something I’m not qualified to second-guess. This is all totally outside my experience.

On the other hand, as a straight white male, I loose nothing at all when a straight, white male character is portrayed by a person of a different color or gender. All of the previous portrayals of white men are still there for me to read. Lots more portrayals of white men are being made, so I lack for nothing new. But what I get is wholly new: I get to see and learn about the experiences of people who look different from me. I get to see what it might be like to be an Afro-latino Spiderman, something I never could have imagined. I get to see what it’s like to be a powerful woman running the show. For me, casting people of color or women into traditionally male roles is a great way to tell new stories that I have never heard before. It’s a win-win.

It’s not at all hypocritical to applaud casting people of color for traditionally white characters, while simultaneously criticizing lightening oR whitening of characters of color. When your goal is to improve representation to diversify and improve storytelling, those two positions are entirely consistent. The criticism is not that the character diverges from the original; it’s that the divergence minimizes or erases the experiences of people of color, which are woefully underrepresented in our cultural tales.

Complaining about traditionally white characters played by people of color is like complaining your supermarket carries white chocolate. Calling white chocolate “chocolate” takes nothing away from the milk chocolate or dark chocolate on the shelf. If you don’t like it, go buy a goddam Hershey bar. They’re both there for the taking.
He/him/his

P-90
Posts: 385
Joined: 11 Jul 2014, 02:32

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by P-90 » 09 Jan 2020, 17:11

Nu-D wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 14:37
The difference is that the Flash in the MCU occupies the same role as the Flash in 616–he’s the bully in Peter’s class. Continuing the name makes sense to connect the two characters to establish the role using clear signals to the audience. Cecelia, on the other hand, is a very different character with a very different role. Reyes in 616 never, as far as I know, ran an asylum for mutants. There’s no reason to pick this name, as far as I can tell, because the characters are unrelated. Using that name tells us nothing we wouldn’t know already.

As for the casting choices for Cecelia and Roberto, until a few years ago I was totally unaware that there are status aspects to the degree of skin color. I’m white, so I have always had the privilege of being oblivious to the spectrum of experiences of people of color based on skin color, hair texture, etc. This is all new to me.

So when people of color tell me that Roberto was dark skinned, but the casting is too light, and that this is the result of bias against dark-skinned people, I have to take them at their word. I never noticed how dark Roberto was; I just knew he was Brazilian. When people of color tell me that Cecelia’s braids are significant in defining who she is, that’s something I’m not qualified to second-guess. This is all totally outside my experience.

On the other hand, as a straight white male, I loose nothing at all when a straight, white male character is portrayed by a person of a different color or gender. All of the previous portrayals of white men are still there for me to read. Lots more portrayals of white men are being made, so I lack for nothing new. But what I get is wholly new: I get to see and learn about the experiences of people who look different from me. I get to see what it might be like to be an Afro-latino Spiderman, something I never could have imagined. I get to see what it’s like to be a powerful woman running the show. For me, casting people of color or women into traditionally male roles is a great way to tell new stories that I have never heard before. It’s a win-win.

It’s not at all hypocritical to applaud casting people of color for traditionally white characters, while simultaneously criticizing lightening oR whitening of characters of color. When your goal is to improve representation to diversify and improve storytelling, those two positions are entirely consistent. The criticism is not that the character diverges from the original; it’s that the divergence minimizes or erases the experiences of people of color, which are woefully underrepresented in our cultural tales.

Complaining about traditionally white characters played by people of color is like complaining about the existence of white chocolate. Calling white chocolate “chocolate” takes nothing away from milk chocolate or dark chocolate. If you don’t like it, go buy a goddam Hershey bar. They’re both there for the taking.
Flash is a well known part of the Spider-Man mythos and has an inetresting history, yes there are different kinds of bullies so just name him something else, no fan of the character would have an issue and nobody would have to keep making pointless justifications for the unecessary change. Cecelia had never been in charge of an Asylum but she is a medical doctor and while Flash is a bully he was never part of an affluent powerful family, nor was he educactionally gifted, he was a jock. The characters are both being used in ways that they haven't in the books.

Race and gender swapping is completely unnecessary, there are untold non white/non female characters that already exist and of course there's the possibility to create new characters. The idea that it's wrong to change certain characters and perfectly fine to change others based on their race, gender or what culture they originate from is clearly discrimination. You can't fight discrimination by being driscriminatry, it makes you a hypocrite. You mentioned Miles, but Miles is not Peter, he hasn't been race swapped, he's a new character.

Well written female characters have always been loved by fans, some of the most well known successful characters in sc-fi movies, action movies and video games are female (Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leia Organa, Buffy Summers, Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Selene from Underworld, Alice from Resident Evil, Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill, Trinity from the Matrix, Wonder Woman, Hit-Girl etc.), did you see Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow or Halle Berry in John Wick 3? they were awesome. The idea that to be successful, female or minority characters need to ride the coattails of established white or male heroes is moronic and insulting. Fans want to see thse characeters and always have, they just want to see them as well as white male characters not instead of.

Minorities are just that a minority, whether it's black and Asian people living in a predominenlty white cultures or white and Black in an Asian culture, or Asian and white people in a predominently black nation, of course they're going to be less reprsented, that's not racism that's just the reality of the nation you live in. Also the fact is in countries such as Britain minorities are represented at a number far highter than is truly reprsentative, for instance the black Afro-Carribean population here makes up only 3% of the population but feature in far more than 3% of our entertainment media. Black people feature in 38% of our adverts, that's over ten times an accurate representation, if we were to go with 'true' representation then black people would be featured ten times less than they already do. Western based media is by far the most diverse on the planet, no other even comes close so when I see people complaining about representation or throwing out accusations of cultural racism I can't really take it seriously because I know for a fact that's it's just not true. If you or I grew up un India how serious do you think we'd be taken if we complained about the overwhelmingly high numer of Asian people/characters in Bollywood, how accepting would the majority of the population be if we accused the entire culture of racism because of the a lack of roles for minority white actors. Our cultural tales are just that, part of our culture, our cultural history and our cultural norms are no less important than anyone elses. James Bond is as much as part of my culture as King Arthur, Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes so if I state that he shouldn't be changed why is that seen as wrong when if anyone from another culture says the same about a characeter of their culture it's immediately respected. Even people not from those cultures can scream racism and cultural appropriation and are still listened to. There are entire movie industries devoted almost solely to black, latino and Asian characters and black, latino and Asian cultural norms, they feature predominently black, latina and Asian people, which is as it should be. The same is true in predominently white nations/cultures and yet those are the only ones called out for lack of diversity when in comparison and in reality it's clearly not true.

Just becasue a non white person says something about race dosen't mean it's sacrosanct, nobody should blindly agree with something without checking first. Recent Hollywood movies made based on foreign mythologies/franchises have been caught up in a storm of controversy with people screaming racism and cultural appropriation yet when those in the nations where these things originate are asked they have no issue with it. There was outrage over Ghost In The Shell in the US yet when Japanese people were asked they were mostly perfectly fine with it, they were excited that something of theirs was getting the Hollwood treatmant and were happy that Scarlett Johannssen was cast, in fact some even stated that they preferred it be a western actor rather than a non Japanese Asian actor pretending to be Japanese. It wasn't Japanese people complaining nor was it Egyptians complaning when Gods Of Egypt was released, it was mostly people from the US creating problems where their weren't any. When those from Japan voiced their opinion of the casting, they were told 'it's racist, you just don't understand', how ubelievably condescending.

You are taking what I've previously written, focusing on one aspect and ignoring the whole. In no comment I've ever made have I ever complained about just white characters being changed, I have alsways said that I don't want ANY established character to be changed, especially those with an existing fanbase. Human Torch and Iron Fist should be white, Psylocke and Blade should be British, North Star should be gay etc.

Let's not continue this conversation, it's a waste of both of our time. I'm never going to agree but unlike the majority of those who hold those views I'm perfectly accepting that poeple hold oponions different to mine. I'm never going to agree that being discriminatory is correct, that to build up one group it's fine to descriminate against another.

And again I'll reiterate was I've always said, I don't know how many time I can say it before it sinks in, I don't want ANY established character to be unnecssarily changed, they should all be treated with equal repect when it come to casting them in live action.
Last edited by P-90 on 09 Jan 2020, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2829
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Nu-D » 09 Jan 2020, 17:28

P-90 wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 17:11
Flash is a well known part of the Spider-Man mythos and has an inetresting history, yes there are different kinds of bullies so just name him something else, no fan of the character would have an issue and nobody would have to keep making pointless justifications for the unecessary change. Cecelia had never been in charge of an Asylum but she is a medical doctor and while Flash is a bully he was never part of an affluent powerful family, nor was he educactionally gifted, he was a jock. The characters are both being used in ways that they haven't in the books.

Race and gender swapping is completely unnecessary, there are untold non white/non female characters that already exist and of course there's the possibility to create new characters. The idea that it's wrong to change certain characters and perfectly fine to change others based on their race, gender or what culture they originate from is clearly discrimination. You can't fight discrimination by being driscriminatry, it makes you a hypocrite. You mentioned Miles, but Miles is not Peter, he hasn't been race swapped, he's a new character.

Well written female characters have always been loved by fans, some of the most well known successful characters in sc-fi movies, action movies and video games are female (Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leia Organa, Buffy Summers, Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Selene from Underworld, Alice from Resident Evil, Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill, Trinity from the Matrix, Wonder Woman, Hit-Girl etc.), did you see Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow or Halle Berry in John Wick 3? they were awesome. The idea that to be successful, female or minority characters need to ride the coattails of established white or male heroes is moronic and insulting. Fans want to see thse characeters and always have, they just want to see them as well as white male characters not instead of.

Minorities are just that a minority, whether it's black and Asian people living in a predominenlty white cultures or white and Black in an Asian culture, or Asian and white people in a predominently black nation, of course they're going to be less reprsented, that's not racism that's just the reality of the nation you live in. Also the fact is in countries such as Britain minorities are represented at a number far highter than is truly reprsentative, for instance the black Afro-Carribean population here makes up only 3% of the population but feature in far more than 3% of our entertainment media. Black people feature in 38% of our adverts, that's over ten times an accurate representation, if we were to go with 'true' representation then black people would be featured ten times less than they already do. Western based media is by far the most diverse on the planet, no other even comes close so when I see people complaining about representation or throwing out accusations of cultural racism I can't really take it seriously because I know for a fact that's it's just not true. If you or I grew up un India how serious do you think we'd be taken if we complained about the overwhelmingly high numer of Asian people/characters in Bollywood, how accepting would the majority of the population be if we accused the entire culture of racism because of the a lack of roles for minority white actors. Our cultural tales are just that, part of our culture, our cultural history and our cultural norms are no less important than anyone elses. James Bond is as much as part of my culture as King Arthur, Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes so if I state that he shouldn't be changed why is that seen as wrong when if anyone from another culture says the same about a characeter of their culture it's immediately respected. Even people not from those cultures can scream racism and cultural appropriation and are still listened to. There are entire movie industries devoted almost solely to black, latino and Asian characters and black, latino and Asian cultural norms, they feature predominently black, latina and Asian people, which is as it should be. The same is true in predominently white nations/cultures and yet those are the only ones called out for lack of diversity when in comparison and in reality it's clearly not true.

Just becasue a non white person says something about race dosen't mean it's sacrosanct, nobody should blindly agree with something without checking first. Recent Hollywood movies made based on foreign mythologies/franchises have been caught up in a storm of controversy with people screaming racism and cultural appropriation yet when those in the nations where these things originate are asked they have no issue with it. There was outrage over Ghost In The Shell in the US yet when Japanese people were asked they were mostly perfectly fine with it, they were excited that something of theirs was getting the Hollwood treatmant and were happy that Scarlett Johannssen was cast, in fact some even stated that they preferred it be a western actor rather than a non Japanese Asian actor pretending to be Japanese. It wasn't Japanese people complaining nor was it Egyptians complaning when Gods Of Egypt was released, it was mostly people from the US creating problems where their weren't any. When those from Japan voiced their opinion of the casting, they were told 'it's racist, you just don't understand', how ubelievably condescending.

You are taking what I've previously written, focusing on one aspect and ignoring the whole. In no comment I've ever made have I ever complained about just white characters being changed, I have alsways said that I don't want ANY established character to be changed, especially those with an existing fanbase. Human Torch and Iron Fist should be white, Psylocke and Blade should be British, North Star should be gay etc.
TL;dr.
Last edited by Nu-D on 09 Jan 2020, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
He/him/his

P-90
Posts: 385
Joined: 11 Jul 2014, 02:32

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by P-90 » 09 Jan 2020, 17:29

Nu-D wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 17:28
P-90 wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 17:11
Flash is a well known part of the Spider-Man mythos and has an inetresting history, yes there are different kinds of bullies so just name him something else, no fan of the character would have an issue and nobody would have to keep making pointless justifications for the unecessary change. Cecelia had never been in charge of an Asylum but she is a medical doctor and while Flash is a bully he was never part of an affluent powerful family, nor was he educactionally gifted, he was a jock. The characters are both being used in ways that they haven't in the books.

Race and gender swapping is completely unnecessary, there are untold non white/non female characters that already exist and of course there's the possibility to create new characters. The idea that it's wrong to change certain characters and perfectly fine to change others based on their race, gender or what culture they originate from is clearly discrimination. You can't fight discrimination by being driscriminatry, it makes you a hypocrite. You mentioned Miles, but Miles is not Peter, he hasn't been race swapped, he's a new character.

Well written female characters have always been loved by fans, some of the most well known successful characters in sc-fi movies, action movies and video games are female (Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leia Organa, Buffy Summers, Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Selene from Underworld, Alice from Resident Evil, Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill, Trinity from the Matrix, Wonder Woman, Hit-Girl etc.), did you see Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow or Halle Berry in John Wick 3? they were awesome. The idea that to be successful, female or minority characters need to ride the coattails of established white or male heroes is moronic and insulting. Fans want to see thse characeters and always have, they just want to see them as well as white male characters not instead of.

Minorities are just that a minority, whether it's black and Asian people living in a predominenlty white cultures or white and Black in an Asian culture, or Asian and white people in a predominently black nation, of course they're going to be less reprsented, that's not racism that's just the reality of the nation you live in. Also the fact is in countries such as Britain minorities are represented at a number far highter than is truly reprsentative, for instance the black Afro-Carribean population here makes up only 3% of the population but feature in far more than 3% of our entertainment media. Black people feature in 38% of our adverts, that's over ten times an accurate representation, if we were to go with 'true' representation then black people would be featured ten times less than they already do. Western based media is by far the most diverse on the planet, no other even comes close so when I see people complaining about representation or throwing out accusations of cultural racism I can't really take it seriously because I know for a fact that's it's just not true. If you or I grew up un India how serious do you think we'd be taken if we complained about the overwhelmingly high numer of Asian people/characters in Bollywood, how accepting would the majority of the population be if we accused the entire culture of racism because of the a lack of roles for minority white actors. Our cultural tales are just that, part of our culture, our cultural history and our cultural norms are no less important than anyone elses. James Bond is as much as part of my culture as King Arthur, Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes so if I state that he shouldn't be changed why is that seen as wrong when if anyone from another culture says the same about a characeter of their culture it's immediately respected. Even people not from those cultures can scream racism and cultural appropriation and are still listened to. There are entire movie industries devoted almost solely to black, latino and Asian characters and black, latino and Asian cultural norms, they feature predominently black, latina and Asian people, which is as it should be. The same is true in predominently white nations/cultures and yet those are the only ones called out for lack of diversity when in comparison and in reality it's clearly not true.

Just becasue a non white person says something about race dosen't mean it's sacrosanct, nobody should blindly agree with something without checking first. Recent Hollywood movies made based on foreign mythologies/franchises have been caught up in a storm of controversy with people screaming racism and cultural appropriation yet when those in the nations where these things originate are asked they have no issue with it. There was outrage over Ghost In The Shell in the US yet when Japanese people were asked they were mostly perfectly fine with it, they were excited that something of theirs was getting the Hollwood treatmant and were happy that Scarlett Johannssen was cast, in fact some even stated that they preferred it be a western actor rather than a non Japanese Asian actor pretending to be Japanese. It wasn't Japanese people complaining nor was it Egyptians complaning when Gods Of Egypt was released, it was mostly people from the US creating problems where their weren't any. When those from Japan voiced their opinion of the casting, they were told 'it's racist, you just don't understand', how ubelievably condescending.

You are taking what I've previously written, focusing on one aspect and ignoring the whole. In no comment I've ever made have I ever complained about just white characters being changed, I have alsways said that I don't want ANY established character to be changed, especially those with an existing fanbase. Human Torch and Iron Fist should be white, Psylocke and Blade should be British, North Star should be gay etc.
:roll: :lol: :P
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 20434
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Jan 2020, 17:51

Alot to unpack (definitions of words, missing points, ignoring of points, etc.) and I don’t have the energy for it...I’ll just say I live in America so I can only speak for my country but underrepresentation in media (particularly mainstream ones) is very much a problem in Tv, film, newsrooms, etc. And thats true for racial and ethnic minorities, gender identities, sexual orientation, region of the country, religion and in some regards socioeconomic status.

The exclusionary (as well as ahistorical) feel of the “our culture” made me cringe though and I’m leaving the conversation for good.
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

User avatar
Gremlin
Posts: 7622
Joined: 17 Apr 2007, 16:55

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Gremlin » 09 Jan 2020, 18:39

Yeah I understand there are controversies surrounding the casting of this film and for the most part the discussion here has been civil. But I feel this is one of those subject that could reeeaallly get out of hand so it would be appreciated if all parties just left it alone. This isn't really the forums for that.

Feel free to talk about the hopes and expectations you have about the film but can we leave that subject alone now. Thank you.
Everybody is entitled you their opinion...but yours is wrong.

User avatar
Nu-D
Posts: 2829
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 00:22
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Nu-D » 09 Jan 2020, 20:44

If a woman tells me what menstruation is like, I’ll take her word for it because it’s an experience I’ll never have.

If a person of color tells me what it’s like to be a person of color, I’ll take their word for it because it’s an experience I’ll never have. I don’t get to deny that colorism exists, because other people have experienced it first hand and I never will.

So when someone tells me that Roberto’s dark skin is significant to them because darker skinned minorities suffer a different form of racism than lighter skinned minorities, I have no grounds to challenge that. When someone tells me Cecelia’s braids have cultural meaning that I don’t know about, I don’t get to deny it.
He/him/his

P-90
Posts: 385
Joined: 11 Jul 2014, 02:32

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by P-90 » 09 Jan 2020, 21:21

Nu-D wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 20:44
If a woman tells me what menstruation is like, I’ll take her word for it because it’s an experience I’ll never have.

If a person of color tells me what it’s like to be a person of color, I’ll take their word for it because it’s an experience I’ll never have. I don’t get to deny that colorism exists, because other people have experienced it first hand and I never will.

So when someone tells me that Roberto’s dark skin is significant to them because darker skinned minorities suffer a different form of racism than lighter skinned minorities, I have no grounds to challenge that. When someone tells me Cecelia’s braids have cultural meaning that I don’t know about, I don’t get to deny it.
:lol: You know, I used the term 'The Church of Woke' before as a joke based on something I saw an actor say while being interviewed, but it's true..
'It's a religion of one, you are the God in the religion and if people don't agree with you they're the heretic and they need to be punished'
'It bares all the hallmarks of a religion, it's intolerant in it's extreme form and those that don't subscribe to it are heretics and the enemy'
'It feels very dangrous though because at least with other religions the godhead is outside of you whereas with the woke religion the godhead is within you so you cannot be hypocritical for example because you are God'

As for the 'braids' well braided hair is a part of the cultual history of mutiple cultures including the Greeks and the Celts so the idea that Cecelia not having braided hair equals some sort of ingrained cultural racism is frankly laughable.

Anyway, someone said this should end so let's end it here.
Last edited by P-90 on 12 Jan 2020, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

User avatar
Gremlin
Posts: 7622
Joined: 17 Apr 2007, 16:55

Re: New Mutants film announced!

Post by Gremlin » 09 Jan 2020, 21:42

Yes let’s end it here. Please stop trying to have the last word. You blatantly aren’t listening to each other in any constructive manner. So please just stop.
Everybody is entitled you their opinion...but yours is wrong.

Post Reply