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Captain Marvel

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P-90
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 10 Mar 2019, 19:53

Milkshake08 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 18:53
Nu, I think the biggest moment for me was when he challenged her at the end (see every internet nerd crying DEBATE MEEEEE) and she just blasted him and said she had nothing to prove. The message I feel that was trying to portray is women don't need to hide their talents or knock themselves down to be on someone else's level or "play fair" just because they are trying to look a certain way or please the patriarchy. If you're more talented, then just BE more talented, or smarter, or whatever. You have nothing to prove to someone who isn't on your level and wants to bring you down. That was powerful, for me.

BTW, I know P-90 said something about women on the internet being obnoxious about the movie and while I'm sure it's a small minority, I encountered one on Twitter this am in sort of the opposite direction he was mentioning. She had a lengthy argument with me about why Carol should have had a love interest and why it's annoying that strong women are only ever portrayed as being super-strong/having a strong power and that's WHY they don't need a man. I argued her into a corner and she posted the "missing the point" gif at which point I was so enraged that I ended up posting like 10 paragraphs about how she didn't have a point in the first place and is an idiot an now I'm one of THOSE people on the internet. Oops. But guys, she tried to say Furiosa was for the male gaze. FURIOSA. Bald headed, one armed, dirty, man hating FURIOSA. Sigh.
They weren't being obnoxious at all they were more disappointed/angered by some of the things Brie has said recently. While there's no doubt Brie truly believes she's fighting historical discrimination, most were pointing out that she's doing so my being discriminatory herself. Basically they don't believe 'two wrongs make a right'

As for the movie, they just don't think it's very good. What could've been a great fun movie along the lines of GOTG instead is unimaginative/lackluster, unnecessarily politicized and disrespects the source material.

Also some seem to have issue with how the modern 'strong female protagonist' is represented (both in movies and comics), it's as if writers are terrified of giving female character any weaknesses so they end up barely having a personality because of it.
Look at some of the great female leads (Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner etc.) they have both strengths and weaknesses.
Last edited by P-90 on 10 Mar 2019, 20:17, edited 5 times in total.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Mar 2019, 20:00

Milkshake08 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 18:53
Nu, I think the biggest moment for me was when he challenged her at the end (see every internet nerd crying DEBATE MEEEEE) and she just blasted him and said she had nothing to prove. The message I feel that was trying to portray is women don't need to hide their talents or knock themselves down to be on someone else's level or "play fair" just because they are trying to look a certain way or please the patriarchy. If you're more talented, then just BE more talented, or smarter, or whatever. You have nothing to prove to someone who isn't on your level and wants to bring you down. That was powerful, for me.

BTW, I know P-90 said something about women on the internet being obnoxious about the movie and while I'm sure it's a small minority, I encountered one on Twitter this am in sort of the opposite direction he was mentioning. She had a lengthy argument with me about why Carol should have had a love interest and why it's annoying that strong women are only ever portrayed as being super-strong/having a strong power and that's WHY they don't need a man. I argued her into a corner and she posted the "missing the point" gif at which point I was so enraged that I ended up posting like 10 paragraphs about how she didn't have a point in the first place and is an idiot an now I'm one of THOSE people on the internet. Oops. But guys, she tried to say Furiosa was for the male gaze. FURIOSA. Bald headed, one armed, dirty, man hating FURIOSA. Sigh.

Also...I can’t be the only person who saw the Indiana Jones-dude-with-whip parallel too, right? Like they could have done that scene ANY way but they had them facing off (in a desert-esque surrounding) and he was all boisterous and loud and s** amd she just blasts him! There’s an obviously emotional/socio-political message but layered under that is the Indy scene. And that at least for me, is like a :”In 2019, our bad-asses aren’t just people who look like Harrison ford” and a great cinephile callback. Or maybe I’m bugging lol
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P-90
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 10 Mar 2019, 20:16

Oh one last thing, some have said that they have issue with the idea that Cap Marvel will be the one who defeats Thanos and I tend to agree. Not because she's female but because it would be unbelievably cheap storytelling and feel quite disrespectful to the characters they've spent over a decade building and to the fans who have become invested in those characters.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

LimboMaster
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by LimboMaster » 10 Mar 2019, 20:35

Was anyone else asking themselves why Fury was just now using the "only for emergencies" CM beeper (during Infinity War), rather than during a previous planetary emergency (like alien's dropping out of the sky in Avengers 1 or Ultron). I had suspended my disbelief until she gave it to him and flew off to space, but when I knew she'd been on call all this time that shattered my bubble of ignorant bliss. I get it that this is more of a cosmic emergency than a planetary emergency but the stakes for the heroes was just as high in that these previous events could easily translate into annihilation. I was thinking they would have built in some other explanation (like maybe being in suspended animation like Cap was for all that time or being off planet during those events [but happened to be back on planet when he beeped her] or whatever).

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Magik84
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Magik84 » 10 Mar 2019, 20:41

LimboMaster wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 20:35
Was anyone else asking themselves why Fury was just now using the "only for emergencies" CM beeper (during Infinity War), rather than during a previous planetary emergency (like alien's dropping out of the sky in Avengers 1 or Ultron). I had suspended my disbelief until she gave it to him and flew off to space, but when I knew she'd been on call all this time that shattered my bubble of ignorant bliss. I get it that this is more of a cosmic emergency than a planetary emergency but the stakes for the heroes was just as high in that these previous events could easily translate into annihilation. I was thinking they would have built in some other explanation (like maybe being in suspended animation like Cap was for all that time or being off planet during those events [but happened to be back on planet when he beeped her] or whatever).
I think I saw somewhere else, a suggestion that we don't know whether or not Fury pressed beeper before and we don't know what was happening with Marvel at those times.

As for Carol defeating Thanos, I'm sure everyone will have their part, and actually think I've seen more people say Goose will be the one to defeat him :p
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Nu-D
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 10 Mar 2019, 20:46

Milkshake08 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 18:53
Nu, I think the biggest moment for me was when he challenged her at the end (see every internet nerd crying DEBATE MEEEEE) and she just blasted him and said she had nothing to prove. The message I feel that was trying to portray is women don't need to hide their talents or knock themselves down to be on someone else's level or "play fair" just because they are trying to look a certain way or please the patriarchy. If you're more talented, then just BE more talented, or smarter, or whatever. You have nothing to prove to someone who isn't on your level and wants to bring you down. That was powerful, for me.
See, that’s an interesting take and one I wouldn’t have picked up on because I’m a guy and I don’t have that experience very often.

Which was exactly Larson’s point when she said we need more reviews by minorities and we don’t need more reviews by white dudes.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 10 Mar 2019, 21:10

Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 20:46
Milkshake08 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 18:53
Nu, I think the biggest moment for me was when he challenged her at the end (see every internet nerd crying DEBATE MEEEEE) and she just blasted him and said she had nothing to prove. The message I feel that was trying to portray is women don't need to hide their talents or knock themselves down to be on someone else's level or "play fair" just because they are trying to look a certain way or please the patriarchy. If you're more talented, then just BE more talented, or smarter, or whatever. You have nothing to prove to someone who isn't on your level and wants to bring you down. That was powerful, for me.
See, that’s an interesting take and one I wouldn’t have picked up on because I’m a guy and I don’t have that experience very often.

Which was exactly Larson’s point when she said we need more reviews by minorities and we don’t need more reviews by white dudes.
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation, if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed (For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)

Now if you're saying that there needs to be more better written, less one dimensional minority characters then yes, I completely agree.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Magik84
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Magik84 » 10 Mar 2019, 21:14

P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 20:46
Milkshake08 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 18:53
Nu, I think the biggest moment for me was when he challenged her at the end (see every internet nerd crying DEBATE MEEEEE) and she just blasted him and said she had nothing to prove. The message I feel that was trying to portray is women don't need to hide their talents or knock themselves down to be on someone else's level or "play fair" just because they are trying to look a certain way or please the patriarchy. If you're more talented, then just BE more talented, or smarter, or whatever. You have nothing to prove to someone who isn't on your level and wants to bring you down. That was powerful, for me.
See, that’s an interesting take and one I wouldn’t have picked up on because I’m a guy and I don’t have that experience very often.

Which was exactly Larson’s point when she said we need more reviews by minorities and we don’t need more reviews by white dudes.
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation, if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed (For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)

Now if you're saying that there needs to be more better written, less one dimensional minority characters then yes, I completely agree.
I don't see why it can't it be both, better written characters and more diversity in reviewing.
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P-90
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 10 Mar 2019, 21:21

Magik84 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:14
P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 20:46


See, that’s an interesting take and one I wouldn’t have picked up on because I’m a guy and I don’t have that experience very often.

Which was exactly Larson’s point when she said we need more reviews by minorities and we don’t need more reviews by white dudes.
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation, if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed (For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)

Now if you're saying that there needs to be more better written, less one dimensional minority characters then yes, I completely agree.
I don't see why it can't it be both, better written characters and more diversity in reviewing.
It can be but it not 'being' isn't inherently wrong nor is it in an way discriminatory.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Mar 2019, 21:30

P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 20:46
Milkshake08 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 18:53
Nu, I think the biggest moment for me was when he challenged her at the end (see every internet nerd crying DEBATE MEEEEE) and she just blasted him and said she had nothing to prove. The message I feel that was trying to portray is women don't need to hide their talents or knock themselves down to be on someone else's level or "play fair" just because they are trying to look a certain way or please the patriarchy. If you're more talented, then just BE more talented, or smarter, or whatever. You have nothing to prove to someone who isn't on your level and wants to bring you down. That was powerful, for me.
See, that’s an interesting take and one I wouldn’t have picked up on because I’m a guy and I don’t have that experience very often.

Which was exactly Larson’s point when she said we need more reviews by minorities and we don’t need more reviews by white dudes.
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation, if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed (For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)

Now if you're saying that there needs to be more better written, less one dimensional minority characters then yes, I completely agree.
I mean since you do love to pull out your stats, shouldn’t we say it’s discriminatory if it isn’t perfectly matching those statistics you consistently roll out as a defense? Lol

And for the love of Doom, stop misrepresenting our stats in the US. Non-hispanic whites are only 60% of the population (and that’s shaky given our undocumented population). We are on our way (estimates now put it as close as 2040/-ish) to being a minority majority country.

And as Several reports point out EVERY year TV and film are not nearly close to that (except on TV characters for Blacks in 2018...we made it baby!). Which is the funny part, you’d have no problem if the representation goes in the mainly white/malr direction. Then it’s just “normal”. It’s only an issue when other people want a seat at the table.

It’s prolly be a real issue if representation smore closely match the state TV and film are made in then the US as a whole. Atlanta and Cali are pretty diverse states lol
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Mar 2019, 21:33

https://socialsciences.ucla.edu/wp-cont ... 1-2019.pdf

Just to fully drive how unbalanced it all is...since statistics are the only way to make a point.
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Spectral Knight » 10 Mar 2019, 22:22

I can't see Carol being the one to defeat Thanos. It's almost certainly going to be a collective dust-up where one of the longer tenured MCU characters (an original Avenger) will make the ultimate sacrifice to save the universe. RDJ is probably the most obvious candidate as the one who kickstarted the franchise, but as Happy is still around and Paltrow said she's not disregarding future cameos (tho won't be a starring role) there's a chance we'll see him again (although maybe as an AI?). Thor could easily be written out now given Asgard has been wiped out, as well as Odin being dead so even if the Asgardians who died in Thanos' assault are revived via the Infinity Gauntlet he can return there as king. Cap can pass the shield onto either Bucky or Falcon.

I reckon Widow is surviving, as is Hulk. Clint's survival chances? 50:50 I'd say.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 10 Mar 2019, 22:44

P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation,
I’d does “adhere to the reality of the situation.” Women and POC are underrepresented in Hollywood and the press compared to their respective populations in the US.

P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed
It is a problem, because white men need to hear the perspectives of other people too. Even if your facts were accurate, (and they’re not), it wouldn’t matter because an all-white, all-male society has just as much need to listen to women and POC as they do to their own demographic.

Moreover, we’re not just talking about race. We’re talking about gender, and half our society are women (almost half; I’m not ignoring non binary folks, I just don’t know the levels of representation). Don’t even pretend that women are equally represented in Hollywood or the press as men.
P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
(For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)
As BC said, the statistics are irrelevent. (And yours are wrong). The loudest, most dominant voice in America is the white male voice, and it always has been. We need to listen more to what women and POC are saying, what lives they lead, how they experience our society, and to learn from them. They’ve been chronically silenced and sidelined for hundreds or thousands of years.

Guys like me need to shut up and listen more. Our opinions of movies written for little girls are mostly Irrelevent. Larsen was right on that.

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Mar 2019, 22:54

Renner I just don’t think is going to make it out tbh...
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P-90
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 10 Mar 2019, 23:57

Blackcyclops wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:30
P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 20:46


See, that’s an interesting take and one I wouldn’t have picked up on because I’m a guy and I don’t have that experience very often.

Which was exactly Larson’s point when she said we need more reviews by minorities and we don’t need more reviews by white dudes.
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation, if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed (For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)

Now if you're saying that there needs to be more better written, less one dimensional minority characters then yes, I completely agree.
I mean since you do love to pull out your stats, shouldn’t we say it’s discriminatory if it isn’t perfectly matching those statistics you consistently roll out as a defense? Lol

And for the love of Doom, stop misrepresenting our stats in the US. Non-hispanic whites are only 60% of the population (and that’s shaky given our undocumented population). We are on our way (estimates now put it as close as 2040/-ish) to being a minority majority country.

And as Several reports point out EVERY year TV and film are not nearly close to that (except on TV characters for Blacks in 2018...we made it baby!). Which is the funny part, you’d have no problem if the representation goes in the mainly white/malr direction. Then it’s just “normal”. It’s only an issue when other people want a seat at the table.

It’s prolly be a real issue if representation smore closely match the state TV and film are made in then the US as a whole. Atlanta and Cali are pretty diverse states lol
Wow, you have an uncanny knack for coming to conclusions about what I 'mean' and what I 'would or wouldn't' have a problem with despite neither of those things being alluded to in any part of the words that I've actually posted, it's quite the talent.

I may have been mistaken (there are many sites with conflicting numbers, some say 60% others over 70% but as you said, who knows given the non documented immigration), even so, I still stand by my original point, at least 60% of people in the US are Caucasian, that still's the huge majority of people with the next minority group coming in a just 12%. If you're doing a press tour in US it shouldn't take a genius IQ to realise that the majority of people you interact with will be white and once again that's not actually in any way wrong in the same way as if you were doing a tour of Nigeria most people you speak to will be black.

I've noticed that many people on the extreme left and right don't accept statistics when they don't adhere to their own views, sadly for them facts don't care about feelings. Why shouldn't statistics be used to defend untrue accusation of discrimination? if you're a black actor in the UK accusing the nation of 'institutional racism' because of the lack of black faces in our media (which we've had happen and is in no way true anyway) why shouldn't we be able to shut down such unfairness with the truth, why can't truth and frankly just common sense about a situation be used to dismiss a claim without being labelled racist just because they go against something 'woke'. Just because someone is championing something that seems righteous doesn't make it's automatically correct nor does it make anyone who questions it automatically anti the intention.

If you or I grew up as part of the minority white and black population in in say, Japan or South Korea how seriously would we be taken if we began decrying the overly high number of Asian people/characters in the media or we we're openly accusing the nation of racism because of the lack of jobs for white/black actors? how is that any different from black actors saying the same in a traditionally/predominantly white nation. Western based media is the single most diverse media on the planet, no other media even comes close yet it's western based media that is endlessly being accused of racism and discrimination by minority groups within those nations, it's not just unfair it's actually just not true.

Honestly it's the blinding double standards that irritate me.
1) The race of a black or Asian character, no matter how minor is seen as sacrosanct and is met with accusations of racism/cultural appropriation if changed yet somehow the race of a white character, even a world famous industry icon doesn't matter and if anyone complains about such a change they're just racist. Personally I believe all characters should be treated with equal respect when it comes to casting them in live action, no established character with an existing fan base should be changed, no matter what that change may be (race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality etc.) especially when that change is wholly unnecessary. I don't want to see a black Human Torch anymore than I want to see a white Blade. I've seen untold female, black and Asian fans say the same, they want to see the characters they grew up with fully realised on screen, they don't want to be pandered to and they find the whole race/gender swapping of established character condescending. But I suppose because I'm white my opinion on the subject doesn't matter.

As I stated before I've spent a lot of time (probably too much if I'm honest) watching reaction videos to movie trailers, you want to know what I noticed? a huge huge number of them were female, black and Asian fans, there are literally thousands of clips (featuring single viewers to whole groups of people) and not a single person seemed to have any problem 'Identifying' with the characters, not one was complaining about the characters being predominantly white males, they were all just ecstatic to see the characters they love on screen. I've always believed genuine fans don't use race or gender as an indicator as to whether they like a character or whether they'd pick up a title or not but could never really point to anything tangible to prove that point, now because of these reaction videos I believe I was correct all along.
If race is so damn important to some people, if seeing someone of their own (in this case non white) ethnicity is a primary factor behind whether they can identify with a character then there a entire industries featuring almost solely black and Asian characters in traditionally/predominantly black and Asian nations. These entertainment industries are an accurate representation of the nations in which they're based, why then in predominantly white nations where obviously white people/characters are the majority is this seen as wrong or discriminatory.

2) The whole 'cultural appropriation' argument rarely stands. All movie/entertainment industries on the planet take stories from elsewhere and tailor them to better suit their target audiences including casting their own bankable stars, western based media in no different. White actors playing gods in the 'Gods of Egypt' movie was met with cries of racism and cultural appropriations (despite them being mythical, known shape-changers) yet those same people who made such a fuss were perfectly fine with black actors portraying characters from Norse mythology (Heimdall, Valkyrie etc.) and openly accused anyone who queried that casting of being racist. Norse mythology is a part of the culture of millions of people across Europe, why is their culture deemed less important, why are their wishes about how their culture is represented ignored.

The 'Ghost in the Shell' movie was another perfect example of this double standard, not only was the character supposed to look completely different to her original body (that was kind of the point of the movie) when asked the Japanese themselves had no issues with the movie. They were mostly excited that something of 'theirs' was getting the big budget Hollywood treatment and were perfectly fine with casting a western actor, in fact not only did they expect that to happen some even said they preferred that to a 'non-Japanese' Asian pretending to be Japanese. Once again it was a minority in the US who were the ones crying foul, they even had the audacity to say that the Japanese 'were wrong' and that they 'didn't understand' I mean seriously, how condescending can you be.

What about Apu in the Simpsons, there's recently been a call to axe him from the show (or at least change his voice actor) why? yes he's a stereotype but so are all the characters in that show, that's kind of the point. No his accent isn't a true representation of an Indian accent but neither does Willy have a genuine Scottish accent. What's more is that Apu is generally liked, he's as popular as any other characters in that show, him being Indian doesn't matter to any of the fans, he's treated the same as the rest. Surely that's a good thing.

And yes I'll revisit the whole unfair furor over the Iron Fist TV show where Marvel was accused of racism for casting a white actor to play a long established white character. As I said I don't want any established character changed but in this case Danny's race is an important aspect of his characterisation. He's the noticeable outsider in K'un-Lun who had to train and fight harder than anyone else just to gain acceptance. Then having spent his formative years in K'un-Lun he again feels like the outsider when he returns to New York. His race is also important as a comment on race relations when it comes to his sibling-like relationship with Luke Cage. There's no cultural appropriations as K'un-Lun isn't real, it's a mystic city state situated in another dimension founded by aliens. The white saviour trope doesn't stand either, there have been over 60 Iron Fist's throughout history, Danny is only the second white man to hold the title. Also in the real world anyone from anywhere can become martial arts champions. If a white person being a better martial artists than most Asian's equals 'white saviour' then that would make characters such as Batman and Daredevil white saviours, it would also make someone like Blade a 'black saviour'
The worst part of this was when comic book writer Marjorie Liu called out the casting when she as someone in the industry should know the importance of Danny's race and know how the fans would react to such ridiculousness. We also had the actress Chloe Bennett backing the change, which is frankly laughable given that she's primarily known for playing a character that was race swapped from white to Asian and who stars in a show where multiple white characters have been changed.
But no let's all ignore all his established history, important aspects of his character, the wishes of the actual fans of the character and race swap him to Asian, why? because he does Kung-Fu :roll: Oh and of course if you disagree you're racist.
Last edited by P-90 on 11 Mar 2019, 00:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 11 Mar 2019, 00:52

Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 22:44
P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
Which is one of the comments people have issue with, just saying 'we need more' of something doesn't always adhere to the reality of the situation,
I’d does “adhere to the reality of the situation.” Women and POC are underrepresented in Hollywood and the press compared to their respective populations in the US.

P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
if you're doing press junkets in western nations then of course the majority of those you talk to will be white, most of the people and most of the characters in our media will be white, that in of itself is not a problem nor is it an 'issue' that needs to be addressed
It is a problem, because white men need to hear the perspectives of other people too. Even if your facts were accurate, (and they’re not), it wouldn’t matter because an all-white, all-male society has just as much need to listen to women and POC as they do to their own demographic.

Moreover, we’re not just talking about race. We’re talking about gender, and half our society are women (almost half; I’m not ignoring non binary folks, I just don’t know the levels of representation). Don’t even pretend that women are equally represented in Hollywood or the press as men.
P-90 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 21:10
(For instance In the US non-Hispanic whites are 77% of the population, the second largest ethnic group is African Americans at 12%, here in the UK the population is 87% white with the black Afro-Caribbean population only making up just 3% of the populace)
As BC said, the statistics are irrelevent. (And yours are wrong). The loudest, most dominant voice in America is the white male voice, and it always has been. We need to listen more to what women and POC are saying, what lives they lead, how they experience our society, and to learn from them. They’ve been chronically silenced and sidelined for hundreds or thousands of years.

Guys like me need to shut up and listen more. Our opinions of movies written for little girls are mostly Irrelevent. Larsen was right on that.
Underrepresented maybe, but to fix that it doesn't mean there has to be less white males. I don't want to see a world where the person who is most qualified/better suited/most experienced for a job is doesn't get that job or is let go just to tick a box. Positive discrimination is still discrimination, not only that but many of those that would be 'punished' to rectify historical discrimination are wholly innocent of that crime. Surely the best way to address the issue is to give a push to some of the many characters that already exist or create new characters. There's a monumental lack of creativity in Hollywood (and western entertainment as a whole) where the prevailing 'big idea' is to have female and minority characters ride the coattails of established white/male characters. Not only is that creatively lazy it just creates a backlash from the fans of the original.
Again just because someone doesn't agree with something (or know it to be factually wrong) doesn't mean they're against it's prevailing intent, as I posted before strong female protagonists (such as Sarah Conner) have always been loved by movie goers. The point is they're not a just female versions of an existing male character, they're great characters in their own right.

Statistics are not irrelevant on any level, only those of the extremes of political ideology (both left and right) won't accept statistics because if they did they'd be forced to change their ingrained blinkered worldview. Statistics when used correctly can help a society address it's problems.

Your comment about Brie is exactly the sort of thing that many have an issue with (both male and female fans), the movie is not just for little girls or women nor is it 'not for white men' to even insinuate say such a thing is frankly ridiculous, to outright say it is insulting. Captain Marvel is a comic book character, historically and even today the biggest audience for this product has been white males, generations of fans have grown up reading comic books featuring Carol Danvers, why all of a sudden are those fans no longer important, why are their views and wishes no longer valid.
The Wonder Woman movie arguably could have been far more feminist, the character was raised on an island where men were forbidden, not only was the movie set at a time that was far less 'concerned' about women's rights/opinions she fought on the battlefield of WW1. Yet there was none of this 'no men allowed' bullshit, no months of crusading by the actress alienating huge swathes of fandom and potential moviegoers, the character didn't spend the entire movie fighting against repressive men and she even had a traditional 'love interest'
Last edited by P-90 on 11 Mar 2019, 02:22, edited 5 times in total.
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Mar 2019, 01:09

Guys, a lot of this discussion isn't focused on Captain Marvel now... whilst I know it did originate from points discussing the movie, the conversation appears to have drifted majorly. Suggest starting another thread as it's still opening week and lots of posters might still be ready to offer their feedback on CM that might end up getting lost in the current wave of mega quote and reply posts that are now only slightly referencing the thread title.

Just a suggestion...

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 11 Mar 2019, 02:37

Spectral Knight wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 01:09
Guys, a lot of this discussion isn't focused on Captain Marvel now... whilst I know it did originate from points discussing the movie, the conversation appears to have drifted majorly. Suggest starting another thread as it's still opening week and lots of posters might still be ready to offer their feedback on CM that might end up getting lost in the current wave of mega quote and reply posts that are now only slightly referencing the thread title.

Just a suggestion...
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by manuel_mc89 » 11 Mar 2019, 05:06

Just saw this (and a lot of your discussion that I'm not going into) and I enjoyed just fine. Like you all have said, oats not bad and not one of the better ones. It's ok. Definitely Brie Larson is one of the better aspects of the movie, the weakness comes from the writing and directing in some points.

I dont see the point in showing us how Fury lost the eye, but they did that.

Loved that Flerken.

My biggest complaint was that I'm Just A Girl had to sound louder.

I was excited for a Secret Invasion movie, but I guess we won't get it now.

My boyfriend, who wasn't really into the movie, really enjoyed the detail about the " I don't have to prove anything to you". I loved it too. Such a cowardly way to manipulate her into submission by insinuating she had to fight on his level.

I want to see Brie again. Don't know if I love how overpowered she is, she was going through those space ships like it was nothing. That's some serious power, and I would of liked it better if they showed us she can't keep that level for long, like her Binary powers.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Magik84 » 11 Mar 2019, 07:09

manuel_mc89 wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 05:06
I was excited for a Secret Invasion movie, but I guess we won't get it now.
It's not impossible for those to happen future. Like a breakaway Skrull group deciding to take over earth, they may already be here not knowing about Captain Marvel finding them a new home. They could still make it work
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Mar 2019, 10:59

Magik84 wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 07:09
manuel_mc89 wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 05:06
I was excited for a Secret Invasion movie, but I guess we won't get it now.
It's not impossible for those to happen future. Like a breakaway Skrull group deciding to take over earth, they may already be here not knowing about Captain Marvel finding them a new home. They could still make it work
I’m still debating whether or not MCU could do it still myself.

One way to do it and possibly connect it back to this film is to have the creation of super-skrulls be the fault of the Kree (even in the MCU we know they like experimenting on folks) and that allows them to then begin the invasion of Earth. A place that could be prophesized to be their new homeland.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Milkshake08 » 11 Mar 2019, 15:33

manuel_mc89 wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 05:06
Just saw this (and a lot of your discussion that I'm not going into) and I enjoyed just fine. Like you all have said, oats not bad and not one of the better ones. It's ok. Definitely Brie Larson is one of the better aspects of the movie, the weakness comes from the writing and directing in some points.

I dont see the point in showing us how Fury lost the eye, but they did that.

Loved that Flerken.

My biggest complaint was that I'm Just A Girl had to sound louder.

I was excited for a Secret Invasion movie, but I guess we won't get it now.

My boyfriend, who wasn't really into the movie, really enjoyed the detail about the " I don't have to prove anything to you". I loved it too. Such a cowardly way to manipulate her into submission by insinuating she had to fight on his level.

I want to see Brie again. Don't know if I love how overpowered she is, she was going through those space ships like it was nothing. That's some serious power, and I would of liked it better if they showed us she can't keep that level for long, like her Binary powers.
Yeah, I'm fine with her being highly overpowered, but blasting through a spaceship was a bit much for me, too. I'm like...where can they go from there? Also when she was flying off through space without her breathing helmet in the end instead of, you know, just being on the damn ship.

Still really loved the movie, but there were a few things like those that kind of made me roll my eyes. We get it! She's powerful! That said, the audience in the theater seemed to REALLY love that stuff. There were cheers, gasps, and "Oh DAAAAMMMNS" whenever she did something like that. It's anecdotal, I know, but my point is the audience is made up of people who aren't necessarily fans of comic books.

And we may still get a Secret Invasion! Just because these Skrulls are good doesn't mean they all are! And they could come up with some really good backstory for that as well where the invaders aren't evil at all, kind of like how Thanos isn't evil, we just don't agree with his methods.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Mar 2019, 15:41

I don’t necessarily think she was overpowered, I just think everyone else has been so underpowered that she just seems like alot in comparison. Hell I been waiting to see Marvel superheroes fight like in a comic and we may actually get it now.

I’ve always said I disliked how weak alot of the MCU was.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by LimboMaster » 11 Mar 2019, 16:14

I strongly dislike the concept of over-powered heroes. It's just lazy writing and it reduces creativity. I remember one of the things I loved about the X-Men (historically) and it was especially salient to me with the New Mutants when it spun off of X-Men was how limited their powers were and how interesting it made them and the stories. I always find that when they get powered up the characters become far less interesting. Think of Phoenix. It's just not sustainable.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by medium13 » 11 Mar 2019, 16:20

I really enjoyed this. It's funny, my friend who I saw the movie with asked me where I'd rank it with the other movies in the MCU and for me, it's just such a subjective evaluation. Thor: Ragnorok gets such good reviews for being humorous and engaging, but that is not usually one that jumps out for me. Hela was decidedly underdeveloped aside from being a weapon for destruction, and here we have a very nuanced set of "villains" and "heroes" with motivations and complexity. One of my favorite set of scenes looking back is the seemingly nefarious Skrull mourning the dead versus his presentation at Maria's home. I really like the Skrulls in this, much more than I anticipated. I wouldn't love to see Secret Invasion on film, because the comic itself kind of sucked but we'll see. So far, the MCU has done really great work.

Like others, one of the standout portions of the movie was when Captain Marvel didn't need to prove anything to her enemy and I didn't enjoy the bit about Fury losing his eye. It just didn't seem grand enough. I was thinking this morning how sweet the Stan Lee cameo was, especially when Carol smiles at him. I don't mind Captain Marvel being super powerful. I actually really liked it.

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