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Captain Marvel

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 14:40

P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:08
Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 01:14
My only question is (and really only question), who does it hurt to show more varied people in a media? Will white people lose anything if there are more brown and black faces? Or how will men be hurt if more women are on TV in more varied roles? Because there’s nothing but positives (for the minorities and the majority) to adding diversity that fills varied roles in media...

And just so we’re clear the US has no where near proportionate representation in front or behind the camera in film or TV (both for major and minor projects). And definitely not in terms of diverse roles for those people...
As I stated, diversity and representation is fair and right, my issue however is purely about those who wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry as weapons. Again my question was about genuine factual statistics and how to answer such accusations with the reality of the issue. I'm in no way saying that more black people or women or whoever else you might mention would hurt anyone just that those accusations are wrong.
Could you Elaborate please? Because I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say or ask. I think some clarity might make this conversation alot easier for all parties...because I don’t know what you mean by “wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry as weapons”.

And what I referring to by the post you quoted was that you bring up representation matching up with the demographics of the population they exist in. And I was just asking what does it hurt to have more people than that number in the media, since dynamic (meaning varied and complex) representation appears to have no downsides i can think of.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 14:46

Nu-D wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:21
Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:04
Well A4, for it be a conclusion to a larger story HAS to focus on the original Avengers. You can quibble about them being the chosen original avengers (as I did above) but for it give closure to their story it has to be about Iron Man, Thor, Cap, the Hulk, Hawkeye and Black Widow...CM will undoubtedly play a role (as Strange and BP did in Infinity wars) but this is the end of their story/contracts. Only Black widow has solid plans for anything going forward. She’ll be the only one who has to survive the experience lol

So I think if your issue is going to be that, then you might want to honestly prepare yourself to be disappointed tbh.
I would say while that’s the starting premise, there’s some wiggle room. One of the big three could have been omitted. And a couple more later additions could have been included. I’m glad they kept Lang around, but why not also Wasp? Could have let Wanda survive. Maybe give Okoye or one of BP’s awesome supporting cast more of a role?

I’m sure in the third act just about everyone will be there. But they’re missing a chance to develop some of their better b-listers into genuine a-listers be leaving them out of the opening acts.
Spoiler: show
I mean we’re totally basing this all off a teaser (since like everybody is slated to be features in this film and Nebula was shown in the trailer), but I still think you gotta focus on their story (the OG avengers) to complete the circle.

But to be clear: We don’t know when or where Scott Lang pops up or when Carol will either or where Okoye is at or who else did or didn’t survive the decimation. In alot of ways we’re (myself included) overanalyzing what the movie is or isn’t doing off a teaser lol
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 08 Dec 2018, 14:54

Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:40
P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:08
Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 01:14
My only question is (and really only question), who does it hurt to show more varied people in a media? Will white people lose anything if there are more brown and black faces? Or how will men be hurt if more women are on TV in more varied roles? Because there’s nothing but positives (for the minorities and the majority) to adding diversity that fills varied roles in media...

And just so we’re clear the US has no where near proportionate representation in front or behind the camera in film or TV (both for major and minor projects). And definitely not in terms of diverse roles for those people...
As I stated, diversity and representation is fair and right, my issue however is purely about those who wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry as weapons. Again my question was about genuine factual statistics and how to answer such accusations with the reality of the issue. I'm in no way saying that more black people or women or whoever else you might mention would hurt anyone just that those accusations are wrong.
Could you Elaborate please? Because I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say or ask. I think some clarity might make this conversation alot easier for all parties...because I don’t know what you mean by “wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry as weapons”.

And what I referring to by the post you quoted was that you bring up representation matching up with the demographics of the population they exist in. And I was just asking what does it hurt to have more people than that number in the media, since dynamic (meaning varied and complex) representation appears to have no downsides i can think of.
On the most basic level it's people who wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry to shut down anyone who has a different viewpoint to them even when that viewpoint is factually accurate.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by EphemeristX » 08 Dec 2018, 15:38

Okay, I've sat on the sidelines for awhile because... wow.

Does anyone here not understand the difference between personal racism/sexism and systemic racism/sexism? Does anyone here not understand the difference between explicit and implicit bias? Because, in reading this thread, it very much sounds like a few folks here do not have a clear understanding of the differences between them and what they mean.

It looks to me like you're moving the goalposts in order to win an argument, P-90.

ALSO: This argument is really bringing my mellow down, man. Why is it, every time we have a thread about a movie that stars someone who isn't white or male, this happens? And, maybe, can we move this discussion off this thread?
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 15:42

P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:54
Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:40
P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 14:08


As I stated, diversity and representation is fair and right, my issue however is purely about those who wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry as weapons. Again my question was about genuine factual statistics and how to answer such accusations with the reality of the issue. I'm in no way saying that more black people or women or whoever else you might mention would hurt anyone just that those accusations are wrong.
Could you Elaborate please? Because I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say or ask. I think some clarity might make this conversation alot easier for all parties...because I don’t know what you mean by “wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry as weapons”.

And what I referring to by the post you quoted was that you bring up representation matching up with the demographics of the population they exist in. And I was just asking what does it hurt to have more people than that number in the media, since dynamic (meaning varied and complex) representation appears to have no downsides i can think of.
On the most basic level it's people who wrongly use accusations of racism and bigotry to shut down anyone who has a different viewpoint to them even when that viewpoint is factually accurate.
Well 1)an accusation shouldn’t shutdown an argument that has merit but I do think people do assume they do and can serve that purpose and 2)something can be factually accurate and still be biased or discriminatory. But really still trying to figure out how we got to this from the actual conversation we started with (I feel like I tried to do an adequate job of giving my points and addressing yours but things drifted incredibly) but at this point I think Milkshakes is right...
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Jazzkantine » 08 Dec 2018, 16:10

Guys (and girls?), please, it’s near Christmas. Be merry, joyful, and sexy.

We don’t know why filmmakers do things the way they do it, and except complaining and threatening them on Twitter we really can’t do much against that, but only hope that they will change their attitude.

I have no problem with Danvers, it’s the way she is hyped nowadays as super-duper-über-drüber-better-than-anyone-MarthaStewart character since she donned that colourful Air-Force costume.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 16:47

Is she really though? She’s presented in comics as a stern and flawed superheroine (see: current Avengers, the Ultimates series, her many solo series).

And by whom? Fans? I mean fans hype who they like, that’s why they’re fans.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Spectral Knight » 08 Dec 2018, 16:58

Yeah, I mean if you look at Carol's history I think there's a great contrast between her times of immense personal strength, as well as huge personal fragility. I think her development into a sterner leader character over the last ten years is her growing as a character, and taking control of her life when previously stuff like Marcus, the conflict with Rogue and it's aftermath, the alcoholism prevented in different ways her being a reliable superhero leader. Carol appears to me all about taking on that control and being the best she can be.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Jazzkantine » 08 Dec 2018, 17:07

By the media and writers. I mean that’s my own opinion but they behave like Danvers is the only female hero Marvel has to offer.

And then this:

CAPTAIN MARVEL: BRAVER & MIGHTIER #1
HERO FOR A DAY, HERO FOR A PLANET!
It’s CAROL DANVERS Day! Air Force Pilot Carol Danvers is a hero to many…so what could possibly delay her to her own celebration? Only her other job—as Earth’s Mightiest Hero, CAPTAIN MARVEL! Stuck between her duty to her community and her responsibility to the wider world, Carol will have to make a tough decision, and muster all of her power to fend off an invasion force! Don’t miss the excitement of the STRONGEST & MIGHTIEST hero of all in her latest adventure!

So basically she is the only important hero to give her own day. And she seems to be stronger and mightier than anyone else because..?
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Milkshake08 » 08 Dec 2018, 17:17

tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 07:30


Go look at the Black Panther thread. There are months between some posts. The trailer came out and there were about 7 posts talking about it, before about a 4 month gap with no posts. It capped out at 5 pages. This is already at 11 with only the last 2 or so being the current discussion. I'm not sure what your argument is here.

Minor Edit: Real discussion started around page 5 for this movie after the EW cover came out. Regardless, there was more discussion on the trailers for Captain Marvel.
My "argument" is that the thread got hijacked into a sociopolitical discussion - I'm sure there are plenty of Black Panther threads that have too. My point is that we can also just discuss the damn trailers/movie. It's not a criticism of anyone, it's just the facts of what happened and it's telling of a larger social issue. I don't see tons of discussion on Ant-Man or Iron Man or Thor's threads, though Dr. Strange and BP may have had similar lengthy arguments.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 08 Dec 2018, 17:17

EphemeristX wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 15:38
Okay, I've sat on the sidelines for awhile because... wow.

Does anyone here not understand the difference between personal racism/sexism and systemic racism/sexism? Does anyone here not understand the difference between explicit and implicit bias? Because, in reading this thread, it very much sounds like a few folks here do not have a clear understanding of the differences between them and what they mean.

It looks to me like you're moving the goalposts in order to win an argument, P-90.

ALSO: This argument is really bringing my mellow down, man. Why is it, every time we have a thread about a movie that stars someone who isn't white or male, this happens? And, maybe, can we move this discussion off this thread?
How was I 'moving goalposts', one comment was on the understanding of societal bias and how that can be eradicated, another was about how a society deals with unfair accusations of racism, they are two completely different things.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 17:21

No offense but that’s a terrible example because It’s a solicit. The whole point of them is to use exaggerated language in an effort to sell a story (it’s like criticizing a movie trailer for being too grandiose). Like we could cherry pick solicits to say anything about any number of characters lol...And on top of that it’s a book coming out before her movie comes out...everybody has big stuff being hyped before their film comes out. See: Black Panther, Venom, Deadpool, Etc.

I mean you say it’s your opinion so it’s no way SK, I or anyone can dissuade you but Carol is currently touted to the larger public as the premiere female Marvel superhero (the answer to DC’s Wonder Woman) but that doesn’t negate the layers and complexity to her character or the stories she is in that aren’t really about her being “uber”. At least no more “uber” than any number of male or other female characters lol
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 17:23

Milkshake08 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:17
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 07:30


Go look at the Black Panther thread. There are months between some posts. The trailer came out and there were about 7 posts talking about it, before about a 4 month gap with no posts. It capped out at 5 pages. This is already at 11 with only the last 2 or so being the current discussion. I'm not sure what your argument is here.

Minor Edit: Real discussion started around page 5 for this movie after the EW cover came out. Regardless, there was more discussion on the trailers for Captain Marvel.
My "argument" is that the thread got hijacked into a sociopolitical discussion - I'm sure there are plenty of Black Panther threads that have too. My point is that we can also just discuss the damn trailers/movie. It's not a criticism of anyone, it's just the facts of what happened and it's telling of a larger social issue. I don't see tons of discussion on Ant-Man or Iron Man or Thor's threads, though Dr. Strange and BP may have had similar lengthy arguments.
Good point...

Token is right in one regard though, non-X-Men movie threads get no real action around lol
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Jazzkantine » 08 Dec 2018, 17:32

I know what you mean, and Danvers was always one of my favourite (Avengers) character. I don’t like the way she is promoted for business as the hero who does what others can’t.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 08 Dec 2018, 17:40

Jazzkantine wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:32
I know what you mean, and Danvers was always one of my favourite (Avengers) character. I don’t like the way she is promoted for business as the hero who does what others can’t.
Despite not believing Carol should be touted to be the 'most powerful hero in the MCU' I've always liked her in the comics (well up until her actions during stories such as the two Civil Wars at least), her history as a fighter pilot and intelligence agent has always been cool, also I loved how she kicked major Skrull butt during the invasion, I think she was shown defeating more powered Skrulls than anyone else.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Jazzkantine » 08 Dec 2018, 17:45

P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:40
Jazzkantine wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:32
I know what you mean, and Danvers was always one of my favourite (Avengers) character. I don’t like the way she is promoted for business as the hero who does what others can’t.
Despite not believing Carol should be touted to be the 'most powerful hero in the MCU' I've always liked her in the comics (well up until her actions during stories such as the two Civil Wars at least), her history as a fighter pilot and intelligence agent has always been cool, also I loved how she kicked major Skrull butt during the invasion, I think she was shown defeating more powered Skrulls than anyone else.
Yep, she slowly became unlikeable for me since she hunted down the non-registered heroes and especially Julia Carpenter. Civil War II was just plain ugly.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by EphemeristX » 08 Dec 2018, 18:11

P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:40
Despite not believing Carol should be touted to be the 'most powerful hero in the MCU' I've always liked her in the comics (well up until her actions during stories such as the two Civil Wars at least), her history as a fighter pilot and intelligence agent has always been cool, also I loved how she kicked major Skrull butt during the invasion, I think she was shown defeating more powered Skrulls than anyone else.
At her Binary levels, Carol basically has the power of a black hole, right? That's pretty far beyond everybody. I don't know why that's so hard to swallow or why it rubs people the wrong way. She's that way because a writer decided to make her that way. Done. She's far from the first character to be created and then given a massive upgrade. Claremont did it constantly with the X-Men. Magneto, Storm, Jean Grey. Hell, even Dazzler.

And someone making bad decisions does not equal being a bad character. If everyone was their best selves, there'd be no point. Civil War I had Tony Stark being an unreasonable, insufferable asshat. That doesn't make him a bad character -- it makes him an asshat. Negative traits are important to storytelling.

As far as the moving goalposts thing, I've decided to disengage unless it's moved off-thread. So, apologies for being part of the problem.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 08 Dec 2018, 18:24

EphemeristX wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 18:11
P-90 wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:40
Despite not believing Carol should be touted to be the 'most powerful hero in the MCU' I've always liked her in the comics (well up until her actions during stories such as the two Civil Wars at least), her history as a fighter pilot and intelligence agent has always been cool, also I loved how she kicked major Skrull butt during the invasion, I think she was shown defeating more powered Skrulls than anyone else.
At her Binary levels, Carol basically has the power of a black hole, right? That's pretty far beyond everybody. I don't know why that's so hard to swallow or why it rubs people the wrong way. She's that way because a writer decided to make her that way. Done. She's far from the first character to be created and then given a massive upgrade. Claremont did it constantly with the X-Men. Magneto, Storm, Jean Grey. Hell, even Dazzler.

And someone making bad decisions does not equal being a bad character. If everyone was their best selves, there'd be no point.

As far as the moving goalposts thing, I've decided to disengage unless it's moved off-thread. So, apologies for being part of the problem.
Yes as Binary she's was a cosmic level hero, nobody denies or, as far as I know has any issue with that, however she was only Binary for a relatively short period of her super career and as Ms.Marvel/Warbird/Captain Marvel she's never been at that level. Carol has a baseline strength level of about 50 tons which she can increase by absorbing various types of energy (at her highest levels she probably maxes out in the hundreds tons range).
Characters such as Hercules, Thor and Hulk have a baseline well above the hundred ton level and have at times been shown lifting thousands of tons, Hulk's strength is said to be incalculable given enough rage. I'm in no way saying she shouldn't be powerful just not more so than Thor or Hulk given their history of being the more powerful characters. Saying that however, neither of them have shown their comic book power levels in the movies as yet, hopefully we'll get to see them let loose against Thanos (I'd at least like to see Hulk win a rematch against him), I know Thanos had the power stone but I felt the fight ended far to quickly.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by EphemeristX » 08 Dec 2018, 18:25

And that trailer is showing you Binary Carol. She's got the flame hair and everything.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 18:31

It’s why I’m cool with a CM movie...even if you wipe your hands of CW2 because you think it was a bad portrayal of her, she’s a hero who actually worked up to be as top notch as she is. She’s earned a right to be treated as the “hero who does what other can’t” (which incidentally every hero is when they star in a story, see: Deadpool, spider-man, Black Panther, etc). We saw this in her journey from the post-HoM to now. And even now she isn’t some “perfect girl scout” like a female Superman. In fact the Ultimates series and really everything DeConnick did with her shows how flawed, yet strong she is.

And I think it was a brilliant move to create the Carol Corps and build that around her...it arguably led to Ms. Marvel and really a number of other great female superheroes in the modern era. And along the way the writers who wrote her made a journey wrote taking (really it fits so much with the person CC first wrote too). That’s the kind of character I hope I see in the films...
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Dec 2018, 18:34

The MCU has downplayed the strength really of every superhuman hero and played up the strength of the “normies”. MCU Cap is stronger than comic comic but MCU Thor is definitely weaker than comic Thor.

I really wonder if we could get super-skrulls (not THE super-skrull but super powered Skrulls)
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 08 Dec 2018, 18:39

EphemeristX wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 18:25
And that trailer is showing you Binary Carol. She's got the flame hair and everything.
Carol can 'energise' herself (is that a the right word?) like that even at her 'normal' levels.

You might be right though, they may be heading down the 'Binary' route, personally I feel it's a bit too early in her MCU appearances to be given such an upgrade, we need to be shown who she is first and at least giver her some sort of struggle to overcome, if she's at Binary level there's not much jeopardy in the story.
If she does (hopefully at a later date) achieve such high power levels it would be interesting to see how others react to someone so potentially dangerous. They may see her as a Sentry type threat or she may feel the need to leave Earth herself just to be sure she never losses control of such power.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by EphemeristX » 08 Dec 2018, 18:41

And current Captain Marvel has gone Binary a number of times in recent history, too. The power isn't gone. She just uses it sparingly because it's alot and it drains her for awhile. Chances are, that's how this will work too. As BC said, the MCU tends to underpower their stronger characters (because, frankly, having someone who can lift 100 tons fight anyone without essentially turning their opponents into a red paste is a big, big stretch). I bet everyday Carol won't be nearly as strong as the Carol we're seeing on the trailer.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Jazzkantine » 08 Dec 2018, 18:43

Maybe I just have a problem with blonde caucasian female superhero bombshells in uniform?

In 2002 a Fortune Teller once told me I should be careful, a blonde women will betray me.

There is a connection...
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 08 Dec 2018, 18:45

Blackcyclops wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 18:34
The MCU has downplayed the strength really of every superhuman hero and played up the strength of the “normies”. MCU Cap is stronger than comic comic but MCU Thor is definitely weaker than comic Thor.

I really wonder if we could get super-skrulls (not THE super-skrull but super powered Skrulls)
Though it's something I may have mentioned before, I'd say that outside of Cap and now the Winter soldier almost every Marvel comic book character featured in a movie is less powerful than their original comic counterparts. I don't read the comics of DC or any of the other companies so I can only assume it's the same with their respective characters.
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