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Captain Marvel

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Anna Raven
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Anna Raven » 04 Dec 2018, 05:59

Yes! Much cooler!
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by tokenBG1009 » 04 Dec 2018, 07:21

Aw, I'm kind of sad they gave away a spoiler there.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Gremlin » 04 Dec 2018, 09:27

Marvel know how to do trailers now. Look at the recent Avengers Infinity War and Deadpool 2 ones. Lots of shots that never made it into the move, shots filmed entirely for the trailer to fool us. They know people analyse the trailers to within an inch of their lives, so they create misleading ones.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 04 Dec 2018, 15:28

Chewie the Flerken makes a cameo!

Sadly, my unconscious biases are making it hard for me to hear Larsen’s little voice deliver lines like “I came here to end your war,” and take them seriously. It’s going to take some effort to readjust my prejudices.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 04 Dec 2018, 16:07

Nu-D wrote:
04 Dec 2018, 15:28
Chewie the Flerken makes a cameo!

Sadly, my unconscious biases are making it hard for me to hear Larsen’s little voice deliver lines like “I came here to end your war,” and take them seriously. It’s going to take some effort to readjust my prejudices.
I'm hoping the monotone of her voice is an aspect of her characterisation, maybe she'll become more emotionally vocal (is that a thing?) the more she remembers her human life.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 04 Dec 2018, 16:22

Yeah, I think the monotone is meant to portray emotional distance, and if/when she gets in touch with her humanity she can be more emotive.

But I was actually thinking specifically of her register. I noted in the first trailer her voice is a little girly, and it’s hard to hear that kind of voice project strength and determination. As I said before, that’s my unfair prejudice and I’ll work to get over it. There’s no reason a strong, heroic woman can’t have a girly voice except my biased preconceptions.

I just read that Larsen actually raised the register of her voice for this movie. If that’s correct, it’s unfortunate.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by EphemeristX » 04 Dec 2018, 16:51

Yeah, she did. But I think at some of her more drier points, her voice drops. I'm hoping that as she becomes more self-assured, she'll deliver the lines in her normal voice. It further limits a person's ability to emote when they're 'doing a voice'.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Anna Raven » 04 Dec 2018, 23:35

I like how this article claims to "tell you a tale of every single Captain Marvel in detail." And then completely lacks any mention whatsoever of Genis Vell.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 05 Dec 2018, 04:09

Anna Raven wrote:
04 Dec 2018, 23:35
I like how this article claims to "tell you a tale of every single Captain Marvel in detail." And then completely lacks any mention whatsoever of Genis Vell.
Does “Genis” rhyme with “penis”? Or is it more like the first and third syllables of “genesis”?
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Spectral Knight » 05 Dec 2018, 13:50

Anna Raven wrote:
04 Dec 2018, 23:35
I like how this article claims to "tell you a tale of every single Captain Marvel in detail." And then completely lacks any mention whatsoever of Genis Vell.
Or Monica Rambeau. Or Phyla-Vell. Or the 'imposter' CM's (Noh-Varr, Khn'nr). Or the Amalgam CM.

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 05 Dec 2018, 14:05

Nu-D wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 04:09
Anna Raven wrote:
04 Dec 2018, 23:35
I like how this article claims to "tell you a tale of every single Captain Marvel in detail." And then completely lacks any mention whatsoever of Genis Vell.
Does “Genis” rhyme with “penis”? Or is it more like the first and third syllables of “genesis”?
The latter, IIRC when Rick Jones was merged with Genis he called him 'Genny' and told him it was a man's name.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Dec 2018, 15:13

It’s crazy to think it took 11 yrs to get a female superhero MCu film and 10 for one led by a non-white male...so about 21 yrs to get a Monica rambeau or Ms.Marvel film? Lol or maybe in 5 more years Disney will let Valkyrie or Loki actually kiss somebody of the same sex...they can edit it for other countries lol
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by EphemeristX » 05 Dec 2018, 15:19

Another possible spoiler revealed by a toy. Take a look:
Spoiler: show
Image

Goose in chains? Seems the kitty may be a Flerkin after all.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 05 Dec 2018, 15:40

Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:13
It’s crazy to think it took 11 yrs to get a female superhero MCu film and 10 for one led by a non-white male...so about 21 yrs to get a Monica rambeau or Ms.Marvel film? Lol or maybe in 5 more years Disney will let Valkyrie or Loki actually kiss somebody of the same sex...they can edit it for other countries lol
It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Dec 2018, 18:52

P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:40
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:13
It’s crazy to think it took 11 yrs to get a female superhero MCu film and 10 for one led by a non-white male...so about 21 yrs to get a Monica rambeau or Ms.Marvel film? Lol or maybe in 5 more years Disney will let Valkyrie or Loki actually kiss somebody of the same sex...they can edit it for other countries lol
It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.

I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Cable » 05 Dec 2018, 19:32

Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:52
P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:40
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:13
It’s crazy to think it took 11 yrs to get a female superhero MCu film and 10 for one led by a non-white male...so about 21 yrs to get a Monica rambeau or Ms.Marvel film? Lol or maybe in 5 more years Disney will let Valkyrie or Loki actually kiss somebody of the same sex...they can edit it for other countries lol
It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.

I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
For women, let's be honest: Elektra and Catwoman dealt a serious blow to the idea that a female-driven superhero movie could be successful. They both came out around the same time and both bombed hard. The people that made those movies literally set progress back a decade lol

But the Blade trilogy showed a black hero could be successful so Marvel Studios has no excuses there.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 05 Dec 2018, 20:12

Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:52
P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:40
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:13
It’s crazy to think it took 11 yrs to get a female superhero MCu film and 10 for one led by a non-white male...so about 21 yrs to get a Monica rambeau or Ms.Marvel film? Lol or maybe in 5 more years Disney will let Valkyrie or Loki actually kiss somebody of the same sex...they can edit it for other countries lol
It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.

I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
I honestly don't believe it's as 'black and white' as that (pun sort of intended), most white male characters in the comics are also not A-list, only a small handful of character, most of whom first appeared during the renaissance in the 60's (with a few notable exceptions such as Wolverine) became icons of the industry and when even movies based on them either bomb at the box office or are not received warmly by fans (Daredevil, the recent Fantastic Four etc.) then I completely understand movie companies not wanting to risk losing money on lesser known characters.

I genuinely don't believe there is a culture of 'isms' in the comic book industry (not more than was the acceptable societal 'norm' in the past and definitely not today), nor do I believe that movie companies (who's first priority above all else is to make money) would put the kibosh on movies featuring black or female heroes if they truly believed they would be a success, they're too ruthless to make such decisions. Again I don't believe there's some conspiracy to keep black or female heroes out of movies just that the most well known icons the industry, those characters with literally generations of fans just happen to be predominantly straight white males. As for Thor, he's one of the most beloved and important members of the Avengers so if you're planning a franchise based on that team then it's a no-brainer to introduce him to the public at large (alongside Cap, Iron Man and Hulk)

Not being American I can't speak for them but I don't believe they, or white people in general are as racist as you seem to believe, I've been an avid Marvel reader for well over twenty years and not once in all that time have I ever met anyone who was a fan or the comics/cartoons/movies that was a genuine racist. The only thing most genuine fans care about is that the stories are good, things like race or gender aren't an issue unless they become the primary focus of an entire book, we read comic books for entertainment and escapism. I see it in the same way as I see movies vs documentaries, of course documentaries are important and we're all at times in the mood for such, but the majority of the time we see movies for the entertainment value alone.

Ten years may seem like a long time but in the business of making movie franchises featuring several introduction movies and their world building sequels it's really not that big of a time frame at all, maybe, just maybe they waited 'so long' to make sure that the lesser known secondary characters such as Black Widow had built a big enough fan base to warrant the risk.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 05 Dec 2018, 20:24

Cable wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 19:32
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:52
P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:40


It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.

I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
For women, let's be honest: Elektra and Catwoman dealt a serious blow to the idea that a female-driven superhero movie could be successful. They both came out around the same time and both bombed hard. The people that made those movies literally set progress back a decade lol

But the Blade trilogy showed a black hero could be successful so Marvel Studios has no excuses there.
I've always said 'Blade' showed the movie industry that films based on comic books could be fun and successful and that people tend to forget that the character that in my opinion began the modern comic book movie genre was black. However on the other hand, Blade was an very adult oriented movie (and needed to be so for it to truly work), it wasn't the family friendly summer blockbuster that most successful superhero movies tend to be so I can completely understand Marvel not wanting to risk money on movies based on lesser known characters, especially when, as I stated in another comment even the movies based on the icons aren't always successful.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Dec 2018, 20:28

Cable wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 19:32
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:52
P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:40


It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.

I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
For women, let's be honest: Elektra and Catwoman dealt a serious blow to the idea that a female-driven superhero movie could be successful. They both came out around the same time and both bombed hard. The people that made those movies literally set progress back a decade lol

But the Blade trilogy showed a black hero could be successful so Marvel Studios has no excuses there.
Yeah...I mean Blade 3 (which was BADDDD!!!) made alot of money still. So I mean I’m not saying Black Panther right out the gate but it shows the fear they had about what people would accept that they waited so long to give him a shot.

Yeah I mean you think about it: who were the successful solo superhero films before Iron Man: Batman, Spiderman and Blade...DD did okay (right?) and Catwoman and Elektra bombed. So while I’m not saying it’s right (it’s not), thinking like a conservative (not political but financial) movie studio, I could see the hesitation on taking a female led superhero film right away.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Anna Raven » 05 Dec 2018, 20:30

I don't know if I'm up for this debate today or not, but I want to defend BC on quite a few points you've made.

First, there certainly are businessmen who are just ruthless, but there are also businessmen who are both ruthless and racist, as our Buffoon in Chief proves on a daily basis. Some company movie execs might be blunt about "well I would make movies that feature minorities and women but they don't sell." But I could just as easily see some like Ike Perlmutter, an executive at Marvel/Disney who actually got forced out of the movie side for some of his public statements (but still currently lord of Marvel's tv efforts) being blatant and saying "I don't feel a black actor or a woman could carry a movie by themselves."

Second, you are basically accusing BC of saying "white people in general are racist". He has no track record of that kind of generalization. He's speaking about a very specific culture and class of people who refused to make mainstream superheroes movies featuring black characters, for a very long time.

You say you aren't from America, and you've never met a genuine racist who loves comics. Well, sad as it may be, American racism is a very real thing, and I hazard to say its worse here than in other parts of the world. I worked in a comic store in Dallas, Texas for 3-4 years. And I can tell you they exist, especially in southern places. And cities like Dallas are better than rural areas. I have several anecdotes of genuine racist customers at that store. Some of whom were well-meaning, it was just the way they'd been brought up, and some who were much more malicious about it.

Comics are definitely going through a similar process as "gamergate" a few years ago. There are even creators, like Ethan Van Sciver and Chuck Dixon who let their alt-right flags fly on Twitter. There's the "Diversity in Comics" Youtuber who is deplorable for his views.

I want you to know I'm not lumping you in with those people P90. Sometimes we go too far by "classifying" people as this or that based on their opinions, I certainly recognize that. Recently there was a whole thing going around about was Tolkien a racist because the black people in Lord of the Rings are mostly unnamed villains, which is a topic that drives me crazy (someone who wrote this scene was almost certainly not a racist!) So, don't take offense, I just want to point out that BC's experience as a black man in America should not be taken lightly, and he makes some valid points in my opinion.
Last edited by Anna Raven on 05 Dec 2018, 20:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 05 Dec 2018, 20:31

Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:28
Cable wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 19:32
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:52



I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
For women, let's be honest: Elektra and Catwoman dealt a serious blow to the idea that a female-driven superhero movie could be successful. They both came out around the same time and both bombed hard. The people that made those movies literally set progress back a decade lol

But the Blade trilogy showed a black hero could be successful so Marvel Studios has no excuses there.
Yeah...I mean Blade 3 (which was BADDDD!!!) made alot of money still. So I mean I’m not saying Black Panther right out the gate but it shows the fear they had about what people would accept that they waited so long to give him a shot.

Yeah I mean you think about it: who were the successful solo superhero films before Iron Man: Batman, Spiderman and Blade...DD did okay (right?) and Catwoman and Elektra bombed. So while I’m not saying it’s right (it’s not), thinking like a conservative (not political but financial) movie studio, I could see the hesitation on taking a female led superhero film right away.
It was probably especially risky in some peoples minds when 'comic book movies' probably made them think of movies such as Spawn, Steel and Tank Girl.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by P-90 » 05 Dec 2018, 20:49

Anna Raven wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:30
I don't know if I'm up for this debate today or not, but I want to defend BC on quite a few points you've made.

First, there certainly are businessmen who are just ruthless, but there are also businessmen who are both ruthless and racist, as our Buffoon in Chief proves on a daily basis. Some company movie execs might be blunt about "well I would make movies that feature minorities and women but they don't sell." But I could just as easily see some like Ike Perlmutter, an executive at Marvel/Disney who actually got forced out of the movie side for some of his public statements (but still currently lord of Marvel's tv efforts) being blatant and saying "I don't feel a black actor or a woman could carry a movie by themselves."

Second, you are basically accusing BC of saying "white people in general are racist". He has no track record of that kind of generalization. He's speaking about a very specific culture and class of people who refused to make mainstream superheroes movies featuring black characters, for a very long time.

You say you aren't from America, and you've never met a genuine racist who loves comics. Well, sad as it may be, American racism is a very real thing, and I hazard to say its worse here than in other parts of the world. I worked in a comic store in Dallas, Texas for 3-4 years. And I can tell you they exist, especially in southern places. And cities like Dallas are better than rural areas. I have several anecdotes of genuine racist customers at that store. Some of whom were well-meaning, it was just the way they'd been brought up, and some who were much more malicious about it.

Comics are definitely going through a similar process as "gamergate" a few years ago. There are even creators, like Ethan Van Sciver and Chuck Dixon who let their alt-right flags fly on Twitter. There's the "Diversity in Comics" Youtuber who is deplorable for his views.

I want you to know I'm not lumping you in with those people P90. Sometimes we go too far by "classifying" people as this or that based on their opinions, I certainly recognize that. Recently there was a whole thing going around about was Tolkien a racist because the black people in Lord of the Rings are mostly unnamed villains, which is a topic that drives me crazy (someone who wrote this scene was almost certainly not a racist!) So, don't take offense, I just want to point out that BC's experience as a black man in America should not be taken lightly, and he makes some valid points in my opinion.
Yeah, I should have been more specific with my comment, to accuse him of having those beliefs was not my intent. My point(which may have been lost) was that I personally don't believe there's any sort of conspiracy against minority characters across western based entertainment media despite there obviously being individuals that do have prejudiced views.

As I've said before, there are scumbags (including racists and sexists) in every group of people, thankfully they are a tiny minority.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Dec 2018, 20:58

P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 20:12
Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:52
P-90 wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 15:40


It's not that surprising really when you think about it, superhero movies as a whole have been very hit and miss (The MCU being mostly a notable exception) with movies based on already popular and successful characters not always being a success, I can understand the thinking behind not financing movies based on characters that aren't even big the sellers in the comics. Now though, after the success of movies such as 'GOTG' and it's sequel there's probably more willingness to risk financing movies featuring lesser known or less popular characters.

Although saying that even GOTG was a movie built around a team dynamic, they didn't have to focus an entire movie around the history and characterisation of a single character.

I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.

On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.

But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
I honestly don't believe it's as 'black and white' as that (pun sort of intended), most white male characters in the comics are also not A-list, only a small handful of character, most of whom first appeared during the renaissance in the 60's (with a few notable exceptions such as Wolverine) became icons of the industry and when even movies based on them either bomb at the box office or are not received warmly by fans (Daredevil, the recent Fantastic Four etc.) then I completely understand movie companies not wanting to risk losing money on lesser known characters.
Let’s be clear: Iron man was a lesser known character prior to 2008 and they had no issue making a film about him.

The fact is that it was irrelevant what comic book fans liked or knew because these films were made to appeal to a much larger audience, so it doesn’t really matter about their history. And it’s a history that only someone who was straight up lying to themselves can’t see was much more racist, sexist and alot of things when compared to today. I mean no person is going to say 1962 socially is the same as today (first of all a Black man couldnt even legally marry a white woman in parts of the country lol). So it doesn’t matter who was created in the Silver Age (or Golden age) because the studios could have chosen any number of characters to create their franchise around. They themselves chose Iron Man, again outside of comics was not well know (same for Thor who didn’t even have a 90s cartoon as I said above). We’ll get to the argument about risk below.
I genuinely don't believe there is a culture of 'isms' in the comic book industry (not more than was the acceptable societal 'norm' in the past and definitely not today), nor do I believe that movie companies (who's first priority above all else is to make money) would put the kibosh on movies featuring black or female heroes if they truly believed they would be a success, they're too ruthless to make such decisions. Again I don't believe there's some conspiracy to keep black or female heroes out of movies just that the most well known icons the industry, those characters with literally generations of fans just happen to be predominantly straight white males.
If we’re talking about “conspiracy” like the Illuminati, then of course not. And it’s not as nefarious or over the top as you’re making it in an attempt to discredit my argument. But if we’re talking about groups of people plotting something then sure movie execs make decisions like that. Like you said, they would do what they think will succeed. And even though they keep getting “surprised” (Hollywood has a history of forgetting that Black people will support stuff about them and then be all “surprised” at the success of the films- see Get Out, Best Man holiday, Girls Trip, etc), execs do (or did) believe that minority led films would not be successful to larger white audiences and global ones. This isn’t some left-wing conspiracy, this is straight up things they’ve said before...feel free to google it.

And don’t say “just happen” as though it was something that arose naturally or by chance. It happened because of industry choices and practices that favored some groups of people over others. It was caused by discriminatory factors that disrupted actual free market forces (if execs were true free market folks they would have been capitalized on appealing to broader audiences). You can definitely argue it isn’t as true today but in the 1960s? Cmon now...
As for Thor, he's one of the most beloved and important members of the Avengers so if you're planning a franchise based on that team then it's a no-brainer to introduce him to the public at large (alongside Cap, Iron Man and Hulk)

But this isn’t the comics, this is a new film universe that could have been structured any way they chose. Last time I checked: Black widow wasn’t a founding Avenger but look at the films. Or conversely, why wasn’t Wasp in the film since comics matter so much? Lol...the fact that someone’s mind could grasp adding another white dude to the OG MCU Avengers lineup (Hawkeye) but not a Black dude (because it’s not “canon”) should kinda say something lol

And Thor was a non-factor to non-comic fans before the films (unless of course you remember the 80s classic: Adventures in babysitting)...so why is it less of a risk to make a film on him so early on than Black Panther or hell Rage or Night thrasher lol? I mean we saw that markets were cool with bad-ass Black dudes with attitudes lol
Not being American I can't speak for them but I don't believe they, or white people in general are as racist as you seem to believe, I've been an avid Marvel reader for well over twenty years and not once in all that time have I ever met anyone who was a fan or the comics/cartoons/movies that was a genuine racist.
The part you’re referring to was clearly a joke and was actually aimed poking fun at execs and what they think people will support. You’re placing some words in my mouth in that regars, I didn’t call anyone racist (or sexist). And I can almost guarantee based on this post that you’re idea of a geniune racist is prolly someone with a noose in their hand and spouting out super-harsh racist rhetoric on Gab while drawing Nazi iconography on a poster or something extreme like that..so we’ll agree to disagree on that one point, especially since it’s irrelevant to the conversation or the points I made. I just wanted to make sure my joke was clear.
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Spectral Knight » 05 Dec 2018, 21:15

Do I think there was a consciously or aware racist element to why it look longer than many would have hoped to see a person of colour head up an MCU movie? Nah, not really. But I do think there's been social ignorance for want of a better word that didn't really appreciate the market demand for films featuring BAME characters, or maybe an uncertainess about how to feature and utilise BAME characters effectively.

I wouldn't want T'Challa to have been given the token Hawkeye role of a barely spotlighted founder member, as I think his personal story deserved more, even though BP isn't a fav character of mine and both Falcon and War Machine's are closely related to the mythos of Cap and Iron Man respectively, though I like their MCU interpretations to date, even with the actor swap for the latter.

Could they have featured a different BAME character in a central role? Perhaps, after all Cage was a big part of the New Avengers during the early years of the MCU, but I feel Luke's story in the MCU as told through the Netflix series has been (to me as a white Brit lol) a believable and enjoyable interpretation of the character, that tells more of a story than a single movie would have done.

I think more than anything is was commercial conservatism rather than anything, shown to be a massively incorrect appraisal of the market given BP's box office successes (even though to me it is not quantifiably "better" than other MCU origin movies).

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Nu-D
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Re: Captain Marvel

Post by Nu-D » 05 Dec 2018, 22:16

Y’know, I was going to weigh in, but BC has it right and I don’t have the emotional energy to do this all over again.
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