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Game of Thrones

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Anna Raven
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 13 May 2019, 19:11

medium13 wrote:
13 May 2019, 17:08
I agree more time would be ideal. But, Dany has executed innocents en mass before. She said herself, "Who amongst us in innocent? Perhaps, I'll let my dragons decide." I'm sad for her, but for a series built on round, flawed characters, it's one of many tragic blunders. I won't be viewing her as a "bad guy" the next episode, but someone who fell hopelessly and tragically off course when her fate is ultimately determined next week. There is no doubt in my mind that it will be with her death.
When has she executed innocents? Up until this point everyone she has killed has been either a slave-owner, a traitor to her cause, or an enemy combatant. She has in fact gone out of her way to help rescue and protect the poor and downtrodden. She's Mhysa, Breaker of Chains. I just don't see it, not like QaD said, with the lack of build up we got this season to that end. She should have gone straight for the Red Keep, not started executing women and children street by street.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 13 May 2019, 19:23

I know this is a controversial take, but it aligns with my understanding of happened last night. She crucified hundreds of masters, not because they were slave owners, but because she was angry that *some* of them chose to crucify the children. We learn from Hizzdar that his father was among those that argued against it, but he was ultimately crucified as well. It's implied that only a small contingent were actually responsible for the crime they were being punished for - which again wasn't slavery. The scale isn't as big, no. But it was hundreds and we're certain from the dialogue that some of them are "innocent" of what she was angry about. There is simply more depth to good and bad people. It's funny, looking back on the events like the sack of Astapor, sack of Mereen, the execution of the masters above, the time she takes a smaller group into the base of the pyramid where Viserion and Rhaegal are imprisoned, or her execution of the Tarlys because I thought she was in the right at the time making the decisions she makes. To some extent, I still think she was within her powers as monarch and now I look back at them with some skepticism. The show has to some extent been successful in making us re-evaluate the events as presented (while the books are so much better at it).

Q&D also said to me privately that she should have flown directly to the Red Keep at that moment, and punish Cersei (and Cersei alone with a fiery death). Maybe she should have assuming there are currently no women and children remaining inside, which I think its unrealistic. But, Dany wasn't out to get Cersei anymore. She was taking vengeance - not on the people, but on her circumstances and she wasn't looking at the micro level that we are reviewing this set of facts with. I don't like the "Mad Queen". It's a misnomer from the fact that her father certainly had mental health issues. For Dany, I think she made a tragically bad choice that will lead to her own downfall.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 14 May 2019, 10:57

Yeah, Dany's entire thing in King's Landing was no longer about the throne. It was pure rage at everything she's going through. King's Landing was a symbol of everything she'd lost and she was striking out against it.

Compared to Tyrion I still say that Dany, Cersei, and Jon are the three most consistent characters in the show. Dany and Jon have grown, but Cersei has had an "arc" that is more of a straight line. Jamie is almost similar, but he's grown some as well and I think the fact the writers had to go off on their own caused his story to end up going all over the place.

Arya is consistently inconsistent, but I think that's the point of this episode. Arya is not a true assassin. In the heat of the moment, she is completely willing and capable of killing someone. She's even able to plot and execute. Sandor basically showed her what would happen if she let vengeance consume her though. Arya is much more a hero, she's a Stark after all than an assassin.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 14 May 2019, 16:48

There is a litany of videos circulating online now each with supporting evidence of times Daeneyrs proclaims she will not be the "Queen of the Ashes" and others where she is promising to "Bring Fire and Blood" and "Burn their cities to the ground!" supporting whatever position people are taking regarding her character. I'm most intrigued by the exchange with Olenna Tyrell who encourages her to be a dragon. Olenna isn't following her out of devotion and belief in her claim, but only for revenge. I wonder if the Queen of Thorns envisioned the death of the commoners to seek her revenge?

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by hotknives » 15 May 2019, 10:12

I've had time to reflect and I do think Daenerys behaviour was in character - the show has been seeding this possible side of her since the first episode, and how she has punished people, etc. since then.
Her aim was to arrive in Westeros and be greeted as the saviour of these people - whereas she's arrived and been betrayed by Cersei, lost John, lost her two closest advisers, and lost two of her dragons. And then to finally arrive at the place she's longed to rule since she was a child, and find that the people are under Cersei's protection and are not running out to greet her with open arms? As far as she's concerned, they do not deserve her - she'll burn this place to ashes and rebuild it. She's a hugely flawed character, and that's what has made her journey so great to follow over the years, especially as Emilia Clarke is a fantastic actress, but I don't think the intention was ever for her to have a happy ending

Jaime - I get why people were annoyed with him going back to Cersei, but I didn't hate it - he's had a remarkable journey throughout the show, and he's recognised as a heroic character. However, his one flaw has always been his love for Cersei - and that remained his undoing.

Cleganebowl - Yes please, thank you, that was great

Arya - Her goodbye to the Hound was good, and I liked her plotline in this episode - I think she's been able to kill knowing that every person she's assassinated has completely deserved it - but here she's really seeing that war (and killing) is a horrific thing that isn't at all black and white. I'll be really intrigued to see what path the final episode sets her on.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 15 May 2019, 14:43

I've been reading a lot of articles and many discuss (although not at length) how Cersei's death was poorly done. I understand the idea that in terms of bad guys getting what they deserve, Cersei's death was wholly unsatisfying. I find it somewhat satisfying as it is more true to life that we don't often get to give out retribution they way we plan in our minds, especially in times of war. But, I am completely perplexed by criticism of the writers/show-runners decision to make her vulnerable and human in her last moments. I found this incredibly moving, even though I both love and hate Cersei at the same time, mostly because Lena Headey has done such a fantastic job with the character consistently throughout the show. Much of the criticism stems, from what I've gathered that Cersei was unrelenting and cold the entire series and her fear in the face of death was again, out of character. I simply do not agree as we've seen a vulnerable, human Cersei in many, many moments of this series. Her death was one of the real highlight scenes, again maybe due to the performance. It was perhaps only surpassed by her quickly and quietly moving down the stairs before the Clegane boys went at it.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 16 May 2019, 01:33

Cersei's death was the death Voldemort should have received in the Harry Potter movies. I actually prefer the big bads have a "boring" death every once in a while. It doesn't always need to be something spectacular. I think plenty of villains in the show had fancier deaths. Baelish and Frey got some very public executions, Baelish even got his face smashed into the mess he'd made. Ramsay Snow got fed to his dogs. Gregor Clegane got...death via Clegane Bowl.

Cersei? Cersei got crushed by rocks in a place no one will probably find her for years, if ever. The woman who wanted all the power and attention died a boring death. Dying by dragon would have been a more dignified death that she probably would have felt was befitting her station, but she didn't get that.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 May 2019, 02:27

I feel like the person sitting on the throne prolly makes more sense with the books than the series...I mean if you think about it the series starts with him and he’s like super-powerful now too...
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 20 May 2019, 02:48

Blackcyclops wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:27
I feel like the person sitting on the throne prolly makes more sense with the books than the series...I mean if you think about it the series starts with him and he’s like super-powerful now too...
Yup but in the series they neglected him for like two years so it feels kind of odd from that standpoint. Still I liked how it ended overall. (Still think they did Daneyres dirty.)
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Magnus » 20 May 2019, 05:52

Underwhelming finale to a horribly underwhelming and disappointing final season.

The first chunk was good, even if the Nazi metaphor seemed a bit on the nose with Dany in her black uniform at the top of a staircase lined with all her soldiers and her giant red and black banner behind her.

Something just felt off and anti-climatic about the stabbing scene, though... not sure quite what it was. Who knew Drogon was so anti-monarchy? And then everything after that was just stupid. Drogon flies off with Dany and no one sees Jon kill her, so how did they know? (I can see Jon being stupid enough to just tell them, but...) Then apparently they all decide to just wait around for five months, bring Tyrion out of captivity and then let him decide who the king should be. And he picks the space cadet. Suuure okay. (I agree that this is an ending plot point that GRRM likely gave them, and it'll probably make a lot more sense in the books, but I'm curious to see how he'd get there). Also Jon rejoins the Night's Watch, which still exists for... reasons. Sansa pulls the North out despite her brother just being elected king. And Bronn is on the council and Sam is now archmaester and there's a literal in-universe book called A Song of Ice and Fire and ugh so stupid.

I don't know whether to be hopeful we'll get another book to do everything right or disappointed that this is the only ending we'll ever likely get.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Milkshake08 » 20 May 2019, 08:06

This was laughably dumb to me *shrugs* The book title reference was CRINGE worthy.

To think, if Jamie and Cersei had stood ten feet to their right, they wouldn't have been crushed by....ten bricks? That didn't even do any visible bodily damage to them?

Why is ANYBODY listening to Tyrion at this point? Like, he's only given bad advice and then reneged or betrayed said advice. He and Sansa played the game best, I guess, since he in effect rules everything with an absent, emotionless king and Sansa gets to be queen which I'm for, but damn do these points not play out satisfactorily in the context of the show. And Jon, my least fave, still manages to undo all his *little* character development, ending in the place he began for, as Magnus said, "reasons." Like, why do they need a Night's Watch now? Didn't we kill the Night King? WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT STORY? And why did Arya spend several seasons learning to literally steal faces to...use that on the Freys once and never again? Why was Bronn even there?

"Uncle, take your seat" was a good line, and kudos to Drogon for burning the symbol of power everyone was obsessed with and Robin Arryn for his glow up, but yup this show did not end well.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by das_boot » 20 May 2019, 10:19

I mean... this entire series I’ve just felt kind of whelmed. Like, this wasn’t the big emotional payoff I expected from GoT. It felt like they didn’t know how to end this to everyone’s satisfaction and so we’ve ended up with a middle ground where no one’s REALLY happy.

Although kudos to Tyrion for installing a puppet king and remaining the real power behind the throne...
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by manuel_mc89 » 20 May 2019, 11:56

So, i know it's not supposed to be the case, but this could easily be interpreted as Bran plotting the whole thing to be crowned, like a mastermind that positioned everybody "where they are supposed to be" so they decide to choose him as the new King.

Even so, after he supposedly doesn't "want" things anymore, he even seemed eager to take this position and showed more emotion in that room with his council than with his family before.

Also, they definitely did Dany dirty, she deserved a better ending than almost feeling delusional, like there was no pretense that she is mad.

Also, Sansa really told everybody Bran can't get it up and that she doesn't want to be ruled by him. That's on another level lol, it would've worked better is she had said earlier that no matter who gets chosen, the North wants to be independent.

Edit: I mean, what was the point of him telling him Jon that he was a Targaryen, it didn't affect his personal journey against the Night King in any way, it only set in motion the downfall of Daenerys and nothing else. Bran... could've easily plotted this lol.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 May 2019, 13:50

I think Bran as king makes sense from a larger narrative perspective (again moreso from the books than the show). The series starts with his perspective and him being taught a lesson about ruling from his dad. That full circle and the fact that he seems like (although I like manuel’s mastermind theory alot better lol) he doesn’t want it, just makes sense for me, story-wise. Add in the fact that technically he’s the best suited from an ability standpoint because he knows all the history, can see the past and future and can sorta change the past. It’s the one aspect of the finale that works in a “okay, I get it” not in an earned kind of way because they didn’t show him enough.

I did like the idea of Arya exploring the world though. That would’ve made a better final season lol

I’ll be alone in saying, I’m glad Jon is gone to his stupid wall. Leave’em there...good riddens
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 20 May 2019, 15:02

I found this laughable. With the exception of the first 40 or so minutes, I don't think I have much praise for this episode and conclusion at all. I'll try not to repeat the same points that everyone has already made, but the resolution to most of the plot points are so unsatisfactory. First, the episode was strong with some visuals. The opening montage of walking through the war torn Kings Landing was powerful and I loved Tyrion uncovering the bodies of Cersei and Jamie. I think that shot was beautiful and it evoked some (but not much) emotion from me. Next, we move on to Daenerys, who has some of the most striking images in the entire episode. I loved the lighting and her make-up throughout the episode. She's shot in such a way that her belief in her own divinity is shining on her face. The image we saw in the promo, with her hair braided was breathtaking. I appreciated the image of Drogon taking flight behind her but it felt a little cliche.

We get quite a good build up of tension in the first 40 minutes. Jon attempting and failing to save the Lannister soldiers sets a tone that can't be undone. Dany's speech is dynamic and it sheds light on where she's going - there is no longer the option to live in her new world, you'll have die as part of the old. I love that she does it in a foreign language and it escalates the paranoia that Jon and Tyrion feel. Tyrion's last stand is effective as well as for a brief moment, we see regret flow across Dany's face when he tells her she's destroyed a city of innocent people. But it's brief and doesn't last. After this beat, we go down hill. We don't get to see Dany's rationale for her decisions or even her justification until she discusses it with Jon and even then, the writers don't even attempt to make her sympathetic, which she should be. She comes across daft, and unaware that everything she's saying is pushing Jon towards believing she's a mad tyrant. It was lazy writing and undeserving of Daenerys, despite her actions last episode. Jon kills her very unceremoniously, and for a moment, I hoped that it was really her who stuck him with a knife. The lack of real emotion in this scene also solidifies for me, as a viewer, the relationship between Jon and Dany was never fully developed as it should be and it didn't feel so tragic for Jon to kill his lover.

And things slide even further down hill hereafter, with non sense resolutions. Drogon appears and I will say, I think they actually display some mysterious dragon emotion. Drogon probably has the most character development through the series growing from a hatchling to a wild rebel, who ultimately chooses to destroy the representation of power in Westeros, before fleeing east. At least he's alive. Greyworm, who was very mercilessly killing Cersei loyalists allows Jon to live long enough for the council to arrive that is composed of several of his relatives. We don't get to see how Jon is discovered as the murderer of the Queen, although I guess we can infer the dragon flame alerted others to what was going on or that there were guards just outside the door. Tyrion, in chains, gets to elect Bran as the ruler of Westeros and for some reason all the other lords agree, even though Bran has shown no regard for the people, no emotion, and basically no leadership at all. It's hard not to see him as someone who orchestrated his own rise to King who has a weird throw away line about being able to locate Drogon. I contest that the best leaders have a good story.

Jon is allowed to go North ... to do what I'm not sure. I tried to rationalize the role of the Night's Watch this morning without a Night King and I came up with nothing. Jon's heritage and identity means nothing at all even though we spent years to learn it and once it became knowledge, it caused the Dany to descend into "madness". Arya Stark of Winterfell, who trained as a faceless assassin and fought to regain her identity, decides to go West to explore in what can only be described as a bad decision without any purpose.

With the exception of Sansa winning independence for the North that's about all I can say is good about this episode. This at least gives us a moment to say all that the Starks endured is worth something but I also thought, you know every other kingdom here was also independent at one time or another, are you telling me Dorne is just going to sit silently and say, "Yeah we'll take this ruler and remain part of the 6 realms?" I didn't care for the attempts at humor, like Edmure continuing to be a doormat or Bronn suddenly being a valuable consultant. Gross.

Sigh.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Nu-D » 20 May 2019, 15:28

I watched this. When they revealed that it was an in-universe book, I expected it to flash forward to Fred Savage reading in bed.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Magnus » 20 May 2019, 17:41

manuel_mc89 wrote:
20 May 2019, 11:56
So, i know it's not supposed to be the case, but this could easily be interpreted as Bran plotting the whole thing to be crowned, like a mastermind that positioned everybody "where they are supposed to be" so they decide to choose him as the new King.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Nu-D » 20 May 2019, 19:51

Does HBO have enough authority under their license to do a spin-off?

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 20 May 2019, 20:26

Nu-D wrote:
20 May 2019, 19:51
Does HBO have enough authority under their license to do a spin-off?
I believe GRRM has agreed to let them do up to three spinoffs at this point. He's stated publicly that he would like them to do a Ser Duncan and Aegon (aka Dunk and Egg) series.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by AntiBody » 20 May 2019, 20:31

Nu-D wrote:
20 May 2019, 19:51
Does HBO have enough authority under their license to do a spin-off?
They're working on a few. There were 5 in development, but 2 were cut, so 3 are left. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of them has even started casting. I'm not following the news about them much because I don't want to be spoiled too much, but I'm sure an internet search (or someone here) will give you some good info.

I need to watch this again, but I'm not very bothered by this finale. Yes, this is my favorite show of all time and I'll keep rewatching it likely til I die, but I'm not all that upset. Some things annoy me: what was the point of the Night King, Dany's death happened SUPER quickly, Cersei and Jamie being in pristine condition for having been crushed, etc. I've been able to come up with some head-canon for some other issues. For example, Jon and the Night's Watch: I think they sent him there, not as a punishment, but as a reward. Clearly, there's no need for a Night's Watch anymore, meaning Jon could be free to go live with the Wildlings. And so, he did. I interpreted that as him leaving with the Free Folk.

I get why people are upset, I really do, but for some reason I can't explain, I'm just not bothered much. I'm genuinely just happy that we got a high-quality high fantasy show. The LotR movies paved the way for this, and GoT is paving the way for even more. Lots of fantasy series are being picked up and I am SOOO excited to see what comes of them all!
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 21 May 2019, 05:00

That book reference was very "thanos.jpg" to me.

Other than that, this was the ending I expected and I feel like A LOT of book readers are going to be upset when the books end in a very similar fashion. The only difference is we probably won't have the Nazi imagery and more internal monologue to see more of what the characters were thinking at the time. (I'm 90% certain I've said the opposite and I thought the series would end differently from the books.)

I argued that Cersei died a death where she'd never be found. Egg on my face when she and Jamie died somehow on top of the pile of rocks with just a couple on top of them but perfectly preserved. I shouldn't be surprised, Tyrion needed to know their fate, but I had hoped he'd just find the boat and figure it out himself.

Emilia Clarke is SO. DAMN. GOOD! Yeah, it kind of sucks she went the same route as her brother, dying while steeped in delusions of grandeur, but damn she was evoking him something hardcore. She was absolutely amazing and I can't help but give her all the glowing praise because while I don't think Dany had the best scenes, Emilia was by far the best cast member this episode.

Grey Worm bothered me, not because of his characterization, but because he pulled out his dagger, slit a Lannister throat and put the dagger back... before he moved to the next Lannister and went to pull his dagger out again. Also, suddenly Grey Worm can teleport? Jon kept walking, GW had 4 more throats to slit, and he beat Jon to the steps.

Jon got the boring ending Jon deserved. At least he got to kill someone important. For a man that idolized Ned Stark, he sure couldn't learn from the man's mistakes or respect the man's wishes. Ned died because he felt everyone needed to know that the Baratheon children were all bastards. Jon got thousands killed because he had to tell everyone his secret that Ned took to his grave. I'm officially on "Bran the Mastermind" train now. Finding out he's Aegon did nothing for Jon's story and only went towards Dany's breakdown.

Arya becomes Death, the rider of the Pale Horse in the penultimate episode. Only to abandon the horse and we get nothing from that entire scene. I get the feeling everyone who saw that imagery just read into it too much. Yes, this includes me because it was the first thing I thought of. I want a series of her exploring the world.

Sansa...ugh. The North earned their freedom, but it felt very "bitchy" for lack of a better word. I'll accept the hate I get for that description, but that's fine. Also, I'm beginning to feel like Sophie Turner is kind of "one note" as an actress. Maybe it's simply because I've seen her in two roles, but she feels the same in each.

Overall, it's all about the journey and not the destination. The journey was fantastic and that's what I'll remember.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Quick and Dead » 21 May 2019, 06:13

Yeah, I know we've said for years that Dany wouldn't end up on the throne but I kinda wish she did. Predictable, yes but it would've been immensely more satisfying to me. When Jon killed her, it didn't feel like justice, it just felt wasteful. Yes, she destroyed the city but it was clear that she wasn't mad. Misguided, sure, but her mind was still in the right place.

And how did he himself escape justice? No way in hell would Grey Worm let him off the hook so easily. Sending him to the wall? I'm shocked that the Unsullied and Dothraki didn't kill Jon on sight after what he did.

After Dany died, the episode shifted and I too did not appreciate the comedic attempts. Dany's death is a tragic ending for the saga and it felt like they didn't want to own that.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 21 May 2019, 07:12

Chrys Reviews does a GOT-Abridged type recap of the show each episode and they've become superior to the actual show itself. Here's the latest one https://imgur.com/a/3gD9va4 from imgur. I honestly look forward to those more than the episodes.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by manuel_mc89 » 21 May 2019, 13:42

About Sansa being bitchy, well yeah, its interesting that both Arya and Sansa both chose to explore the world and start and independent kingdom, instead of living under their brother's rule. And that is a thing that bothers me regarding Sansa, she was alone in the finale, sure she is the king, and in theory she has the support of all the Northern houses, but she doesnt have Arya or Brienne for protection.

Regarding Brienne, its odd that she would choose to stop protecting Sansa and go to Bran. I mean, yeah its probably the job she deserves and the most fulfilling for her, but i dont see her doing it willingly, so i assume that Sansa ask her to protect her brother instead.

I have come to accept that Daenerys story was a tragedy, in the literary sense, how she was doomed by fate to end up like this, and i can accept it more, but i wish it was done better in the dialogue with Jon. I feel for her.
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Anna Raven
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Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 22:53

Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 21 May 2019, 14:13

manuel_mc89 wrote:
21 May 2019, 13:42
About Sansa being bitchy, well yeah, its interesting that both Arya and Sansa both chose to explore the world and start and independent kingdom, instead of living under their brother's rule. And that is a thing that bothers me regarding Sansa, she was alone in the finale, sure she is the king, and in theory she has the support of all the Northern houses, but she doesnt have Arya or Brienne for protection.

Regarding Brienne, its odd that she would choose to stop protecting Sansa and go to Bran. I mean, yeah its probably the job she deserves and the most fulfilling for her, but i dont see her doing it willingly, so i assume that Sansa ask her to protect her brother instead.

I have come to accept that Daenerys story was a tragedy, in the literary sense, how she was doomed by fate to end up like this, and i can accept it more, but i wish it was done better in the dialogue with Jon. I feel for her.
As far as the protection/Brienne thing. One would assume most of the Starks threats are gone and this is going to be mostly an era of peace. So she probably felt ok with letting Brienne take a spot on the Kingsguard.
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