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Game of Thrones

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Nu-D
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Nu-D » 09 May 2019, 12:32

Until this week, I had never seen even a few seconds of this show or read a word in any of the books. I was in the room while this episode was playing, and I have to say, it looked terrible.

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Anna Raven
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 09 May 2019, 13:30

Nu-D wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:32
Until this week, I had never seen even a few seconds of this show or read a word in any of the books. I was in the room while this episode was playing, and I have to say, it looked terrible.
Haha, way to give it a fair shot.

I love you NuD, But you can be such a grump. :D
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 09 May 2019, 14:41

Anna Raven wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:30
Nu-D wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:32
Until this week, I had never seen even a few seconds of this show or read a word in any of the books. I was in the room while this episode was playing, and I have to say, it looked terrible.
Haha, way to give it a fair shot.
Hahaha.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Nu-D » 09 May 2019, 21:32

Anna Raven wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:30
Nu-D wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:32
Until this week, I had never seen even a few seconds of this show or read a word in any of the books. I was in the room while this episode was playing, and I have to say, it looked terrible.
Haha, way to give it a fair shot.

I love you NuD, But you can be such a grump. :D
Lol. Indeed.

I was thinking after seeing that show that I might give one of the books a try, but my wife got rid of her copies.

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medium13
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 10 May 2019, 14:49

I love the books so much and would absolutely recommend you try them. I was not a fantasy reader before (or after really) but I've read them twice. I need to get myself a "new" set as well as I had lent them out to my ex's sister-in-law before a break up. So I'm debating which set to get.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by manuel_mc89 » 10 May 2019, 22:44

Ok, so heres is my theory if things dont work out well for either Dany or Jon and the writers want to surprise as with an ending different than Dany and Jon being married and ruling together:

My bet is Tyrion will rule with Sansa as his Queen, remember she was married to him, and he is the brother of the Queen. A few episodes back she said how he was the best of them. Tyrion was very good at running things over at Kings Landing, and really liked that job, and he is popular enough that people would'nt be completely upset if he were to become King. Its the same for Sansa, she has been getting ready for ruling, and the two of them together would be very good for the seven nations. I wouldnt hate seeing this.

Also my theory about how this might came to be: Dany becomes the Mad Queen and Jon the Queenslayer, after that, he doesnt want to rule anywhere and leaves to live beyond the wall. (i would probably hate this, poor Dany).
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 11 May 2019, 01:39

Nu-D wrote:
09 May 2019, 21:32
Anna Raven wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:30
Nu-D wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:32
Until this week, I had never seen even a few seconds of this show or read a word in any of the books. I was in the room while this episode was playing, and I have to say, it looked terrible.
Haha, way to give it a fair shot.

I love you NuD, But you can be such a grump. :D
Lol. Indeed.

I was thinking after seeing that show that I might give one of the books a try, but my wife got rid of her copies.
The books really are loads better than the show. The flip side is they may never get an ending.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 11 May 2019, 02:02

I read Game of Thrones, but got like two pages into A Feast for Crows and returned it to the library. I'm a big fantasy fan, but I just couldn't get into it.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by XtremeOne1 » 11 May 2019, 12:56

Well did you start at A Feast For Crows? The first three books are terrific but that is, by far, the worst book of the series. It's not really even that good of q boom, period, IMO.

The last two books basically were 1,500 pages that I wish was 600, if not less. The treading of water is epic. His writing of Cersei was terrible(show Cersei is sooo much more of a character), and like the show it's Dorne plot went no where(okay, well it had Arianne's three chapters but her plot kicks into gear at the end...Man show, why no Arianne).

Honestly it's tough to suggest someone to get into the books because it's likely to not finish. Even if we get book 6, we still got 7. And if book 6 is anything like 4 and 5....

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Nu-D » 11 May 2019, 13:16

Honestly, I’ve never been able to get into sword and sorcery style fantasy. I read LotR, and a massive body of Tolkien’s other work, when I was pretty young, and everything afterward seemed derivative. That’s not a fair judgment, and I should try to be more open. But that’s the way it’s been.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 11 May 2019, 14:14

No, I read A Game of Thrones first and then moved straight to A Feast for Crows.

I'm honestly assuming GRRM won't finish the books at this point. If he manages to get Book 6 out this year he's already 70 and not exactly the fittest of men. People live older, but I wonder how much he'd put into Book 7 and how long it would take him.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 11 May 2019, 18:37

Nu-D wrote:
11 May 2019, 13:16
Honestly, I’ve never been able to get into sword and sorcery style fantasy. I read LotR, and a massive body of Tolkien’s other work, when I was pretty young, and everything afterward seemed derivative. That’s not a fair judgment, and I should try to be more open. But that’s the way it’s been.
To be fair, quite a bit of it is really derivative, but that's because Tolkien literally created the genre, like Jules Verne created sci fi. So we are all mostly just playing in Tolkiens playground, and most of the fans seem to prefer it that way. But the nonfans do often point to this and they aren't totally wrong.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Nu-D » 11 May 2019, 22:55

Anna Raven wrote:
11 May 2019, 18:37
Nu-D wrote:
11 May 2019, 13:16
Honestly, I’ve never been able to get into sword and sorcery style fantasy. I read LotR, and a massive body of Tolkien’s other work, when I was pretty young, and everything afterward seemed derivative. That’s not a fair judgment, and I should try to be more open. But that’s the way it’s been.
To be fair, quite a bit of it is really derivative, but that's because Tolkien literally created the genre, like Jules Verne created sci fi. So we are all mostly just playing in Tolkiens playground, and most of the fans seem to prefer it that way. But the nonfans do often point to this and they aren't totally wrong.
Actually, I think in some ways Verne and Tolkien are exact opposites. Where Tolkien was drawing on thousands of years of human myths, Verne was pioneering the art of storytelling about science. Tolkien was the last of the old mythmakers about magic and gods. Verne was the first of the new mythamkers about the new god of science.

This is a new hypothesis, I’ve come up with in the last 5 minutes while thinking about your post. So on further reflection it may turn out to be nonsense.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 12 May 2019, 00:33

Nu-D wrote:
11 May 2019, 22:55
Anna Raven wrote:
11 May 2019, 18:37
Nu-D wrote:
11 May 2019, 13:16
Honestly, I’ve never been able to get into sword and sorcery style fantasy. I read LotR, and a massive body of Tolkien’s other work, when I was pretty young, and everything afterward seemed derivative. That’s not a fair judgment, and I should try to be more open. But that’s the way it’s been.
To be fair, quite a bit of it is really derivative, but that's because Tolkien literally created the genre, like Jules Verne created sci fi. So we are all mostly just playing in Tolkiens playground, and most of the fans seem to prefer it that way. But the nonfans do often point to this and they aren't totally wrong.
Actually, I think in some ways Verne and Tolkien are exact opposites. Where Tolkien was drawing on thousands of years of human myths, Verne was pioneering the art of storytelling about science. Tolkien was the last of the old mythmakers about magic and gods. Verne was the first of the new mythamkers about the new god of science.

This is a new hypothesis, I’ve come up with in the last 5 minutes while thinking about your post. So on further reflection it may turn out to be nonsense.
I think you are on to something but I will say I think Tolkien's genius was that he was able to create something completely new and fantastical out of English myth, because of his grasp of the cultures and languages that made up England (Celtic, Norse, German, Anglo-Saxon, and French). Tolkien created entire races that felt real, like they had actually existed and you might someday find their relics and treasures if you looked long enough.

And then you add into that his experience during WW1 and how his stories offered hope and comfort during WW2, and you get a transcendent piece of literature.

Verne, like you say, was an amazing prognosticator. Somehow he hit on all the things that would occupy the imagination of scientists, decades before it would be even remotely technologically feasible to just research them. I think that's because despite how great a forecaster he was, he was also really just building on the things of the past that make humans drive forward. The desire to explore, to create, to adventure, to seek out universal truths. He just applied those ideas to say the moon, or undersea adventures, or the center of the earth.

The thing is, I feel where Verne was one of the most influential, he's in very good company with people like HG Wells, Mary Shelley, and Edgar Rice Burroughs. Whereas the only contemporary who even came close to rivaling Tolkein was CS Lewis. It kind of makes him more monolithic.

I just got out of seeing the biopic of Tolkien, and so I'm sure that's influencing my thoughts. Plus while I love Sci-Fi, my passion is for Fantasy and so I might be letting my bias show a little.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by XtremeOne1 » 12 May 2019, 15:15

With a new episode today, just a friendly reminder that we have a section of the board dedicated to discussion of all things books! :D

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 12 May 2019, 19:30

Sorry :(
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Magnus » 13 May 2019, 00:18

XtremeOne1 wrote:
11 May 2019, 12:56
Well did you start at A Feast For Crows? The first three books are terrific but that is, by far, the worst book of the series. It's not really even that good of q boom, period, IMO.

The last two books basically were 1,500 pages that I wish was 600, if not less. The treading of water is epic. His writing of Cersei was terrible(show Cersei is sooo much more of a character), and like the show it's Dorne plot went no where(okay, well it had Arianne's three chapters but her plot kicks into gear at the end...Man show, why no Arianne).
I definitely used to feel like you do (the first three books are amazing, 4 + 5 are boring for the most part, I figured since they fill in a five year gap he originally intended to skip). There's a lot of new characters introduced and plotlines begun, and without knowing where they go it definitely seemed like treading water. But funny enough, seeing how this season of the TV show has turned out makes me appreciate what happens in books 4 and 5 so much more. The 'point' of those new plotlines (many of them excised from the show because I don't think the show runners understood the point of them either) has become clear by their absence...
Spoiler: show
Dany's turn to 'mad queen' I think makes a lot more sense if she's worried about (f)Aegon instead of Jon, as does Varys' switch in loyalty (since in the books (f)Aegon is his creation). Dorne also likely ties in much closer here instead of basically being pointless in the show. Euron is a much better character and he's probably the true 'end villain', with Cersei latching onto him instead of the other way around in the show. Lady Stoneheart is probably a more satisfying conclusion for the R'hllor stuff than we got with Melisandre ex machina.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
11 May 2019, 14:14
No, I read A Game of Thrones first and then moved straight to A Feast for Crows.
You... read book 1 then jumped to 4? Weirdo. :P

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Anna Raven » 13 May 2019, 02:23

I'm so angry at this episode I can't see straight. They royally screwed this episode up.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by manuel_mc89 » 13 May 2019, 04:54

I completely agree. I can't believe they actually went there, Dany will lose everything.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 13 May 2019, 06:14

Magnus wrote:
13 May 2019, 00:18
tokenBG1009 wrote:
11 May 2019, 14:14
No, I read A Game of Thrones first and then moved straight to A Feast for Crows.
You... read book 1 then jumped to 4? Weirdo. :P


Maybe not, for some reason I thought that was the second book. I guess Clash of Kings is the one I read and hated.

Also, this episode...

I don't think I'm all that excited for the Star Wars series the GoT showrunners are in plans to do. The Old Republic is one of my favorite eras.

As I watched this episode I'm pissed with what happened with Dany, but given her character arc this season it makes sense. Unfortunately, given her character arc throughout the entire series it makes no sense. She literally states her intentions when Jon, the thrice timed idiot, rejected her. Which I know is going to be twisted into "woman gets turned down by man and goes insane" but it's much more than that. Yes, Jon rejected her, but he was just match. She'd watched as everyone loved Jon when it was her that saved them all. She should have been celebrated and held in high esteem as she pretty much sacrificed everyone she knows and loved for their cause. Instead they look to Jon as their hero.

More on Dany after more thinking... I suppose she remained consistent as well. She's been prone to violence and anger. She had people to pull her back from the brink before she went all Mad Queen. Jorah and Missandei are both dead though and Tyrion has lost her favor after D&D butchered his character this season. Jon might have been the last, but he did Jon things and screwed that up as well.

Jon really is the reason behind pretty much everything wrong this season. Granted, like Cersei, he's probably the only major character that's been consistent the entire time as well.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Milkshake08 » 13 May 2019, 07:15

Sigh.

The most frustrating part about this is all the people thinking they're so smart saying "Ugh, Dany's always been crazy you just didn't want to see it."

I'm fine with her becoming the Mad Queen, but no, sorry all, it did not happen organically. People citing her watching her sadistic, cruel, abusive brother get burned without flinching; her burning the wealthy oligarchs of Mereen, or later the Tarlys (she spared their army, let's note); no, she's always been brutal and violent, and that is definitely her and probably a comment on the female led monarchies of the past and how they were just as power hungry and brutal as their male counterparts, but she's always spared the innocent. She didn't even GO for Cersei! This episode was disaster porn, with endless scenes of dragon fire blowing up buildings and murdering people and I'm sorry, but that's boring, especially when you're skipping over important plot points and character arcs. Why couldn't Dany have done this to the white walkers (with 2 dragons no less!)? Why couldn't she have done this to the fleet in the very last episode? Why are the two biggest battles easily ended by one person doing a thing (and in this case, it's the entire battle?). That's so anti-climactic.

Also, this episode murdered Jamie's redemption storyline. I'm almost 100% sure GRRM means for him to kill Cersei, but if they weren't going to do that here, they could have done anything else other than circle back to him being exactly the same as the first episode. Character development? Who cares about that, amirite???? And btw, the two longest running villains in this show, Cersei and the Night King, barely got to do anything in this final season, and with Cersei, she maybe got like 20 lines this whole season, and all of them involved her pretty much standing around looking out windows. We didn't even see her sitting on the throne this episode! And did Dany burn the throne? The buildup to who will sit on it is pretty silly if she destroyed the Red Keep, right?

Arya and the Hound's stuff was ok, but her sudden reversal was unearned and really she didn't need to be there. So many shots of her getting blasted at when I'd have preferred real character development. She got a longer scene with a damn horse than she did with the Hound, and than Jon did with the only remaining dire wolf on the show. Also, I feel like Tyrion is all over the place and they really had no idea what to do with him. Dany burning Varys was also a dumb ending to his character arc (as was his weird, non-subtle reversal of who to support). Cersei being the big bad and getting buried in rubble while no characters get to see it is all kinds of annoying given the show (and GRRM's) love of giving especially heinous deaths to long running "villains."

Honestly, I'm just so tired. Like, the show has always been a bit problematic in terms of gore, nudity, and it's attitude towards women at times. But the source material at least attempts to remedy that and the adaptation has been pretty dang good television for a long time. Last season had a lot of missteps but some parts were still very good. This season is just a mess and a huge disappointment.

PS, love how "boring fantasy messiah guy trope that's in every goddamn fantasy novel" Jon Snow is also a Targaryan but no one brings up the fact he might also go crazy at a moment's notice. Glad both the female rulers on this show get to be sadistic nutcases. Love it.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by tokenBG1009 » 13 May 2019, 07:47

The Jon thing is a question of is the madness genetic or otherwise. Dany was raised, I assume by her brother, a Targaryan and she's been a princess or queen in a constant cycle of violence the entire show. Jon was raised a Stark and thrust into leadership positions he never wanted. They both had very different paths in their lives. There's also the fact Jon's lost very little in comparison to Dany throughout the show.

Also, we have very clearly seen Dany go a bit far when faced with grief. People who hurt or betray her tend to get gruesome endings. Did the people hurt her? No, but she's also listened to Tyrion repeatedly only to end up on the wrong side of things. She no longer respected him and did what she wanted after losing her best friend to Cersei. It was a huge overreaction and probably a poor character move as she's never done anything like that before.

Overall, I feel like at this point D&D are doing their best to keep people guessing. I know GRRM told them how the story would end, but I wonder if they/HBO decided to go their own way with a different ending. The dude who played Barriston Selmy mentioned he believes GRRM has actually finished the books and is waiting for the show to end before releasing them. I'd honestly believe it at this point if the show goes a vastly different direction than the books. I'd be really interested to read Dany's inner monologue during the sack of King's Landing.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 13 May 2019, 15:03

I am going to be the minority here and say I liked this episode, in fact I am almost ready to say I loved it. One thought that keeps going through my mind regarding all our favorites and the criticism that the final season has destroyed character arcs is that ultimately, that many of these characters didn't change during the arc, they've always been who they've been. For example, if I could go back to the last episode and change one line, when the Hound comments to Sansa that she was just a little bird, I wish she had said, "I have never been a little bird. I've always been a wolf, you just didn't see it."

Let me clarify, I am not happy to see Danerys become a butcher, who kills innocents haphazardly, nor do I think that is who she is. Danerys has always been one of my favorite characters, and there is much to identify with about her, so it's disappointing to see her fall this far or ultimately be the antagonist or worse, "the Great Other". I have expressed my displeasure with her treatment in the North and her quick spiral into "madness" over the last essentially two episodes. When we open the episode, she's clearly distraught and reeling from the multiple losses she's had over a short time. I loved that without even acknowledging Tyrion she says, "Someone has betrayed me." She's not even questioning it. She knows it to be true. In her mind, she extends the treason to Jon (which isn't completely wrong). When she gives Jon one last opportunity to turn things around, and he falters again, I understand why she feels like in Westeros, all she has is fear. She's lived her life on the run in fear of assassins (from Westeros). In Essos she found she loved Dhrogo, found love of the people. None of those things followed her to Westeros, where she commented it didn't feel like home as she thought it would.

To Emelia Clark's credit, when we watch Danerys listening to the bells tolling, I understand why she decides to burn the city to the ground. King's Landing, her goal for her entire life is just a disappointment, perhaps even a waste of her life since these people, despite all she has done for them, don't accept her. These people destroyed her life, her house, and after she rebuilt it from ash, she has lost everything. They never cast Cersei down. Her pained face was heartbreaking and while in my mind I thought, "No, Danerys!", I didn't really judge her for her actions until I saw the results. While I haven't been able to reconcile this completely with what I understand to be her character, like I can more completely with Arya and Jamie below, I think I will find it in time.

While Drogon gets MVP for the episode, I found the destruction hard to watch and it also makes me wish Danerys and her advisers had the foresight to utilize the dragons differently before Rhaegal and Viserion were killed, as this destruction could have been prevented. When Drogon is used in a strategic way, the fleet and capital didn't stand a chance (although I wish we saw that strategy more - ok he was diving fast from above the clouds and they weren't able to see him. Good thing it was cloudy that day). I was optimistic that we'd see Danerys plan or strategize to win when the odds were against her, but this doesn't happen it all so in that sense I was disappointed by the battle. The ultimate conflict, I suspect, will require Danerys turing her sights to lay waste to the rest of Westeros, specifically the North. I hope at the end of this series, that Drogon gets to fly off to the East and disappear into history.

Arya on the other hand, turns from vengeance and moves towards heroics which is a plot line that I have always felt is more suited to who Arya is. She struggled with being a faceless assassin. She couldn't kill indiscriminately and failed at killing, unless it was personal to her because she is a Stark of Winterfell with a strong moral compass. Turning away from vengeance was more satisfying to me that her execution of Meryn Trant or the Freys. When she tries to help the woman and children, it was the first time I really cheered Arya on. Was it awesome that she killed the Night King ? Yes. But, this was the first time I saw her as a real hero. I was curious how Arya would be utilized in King's Landing, and I assumed that she would help with the Hound defeat the Mountain, or take the leader of the Gold Company's face to make them betray Cersei, but instead we get to see the destruction through Arya's eyes, a character we care about. When Arya is trampled or shown unconscious, I was worried we would see her die in a completely normal and unfortunate way and that evoked more emotion for me than any of the other harrowing circumstances she's faced. Ultimately, I think using her skills to help save and defend innocents is more becoming of Arya than embodying a faceless assassin.

Likewise, I also have assumed for years that Jamie would kill Cersei by strangulation. Jamie is introduced to the audience as an uncontested vile villain. But, as we begin to understand him we learn that he did have character, morals, and the things he did he did out of his love for Cersei. But his arc didn't make him heroic, he in a sense always was, but tragically misunderstood. In the context of the show and the show only, returning to Cersei to console her in death worked for me. It was tragic and romantic especially considering they were actually quite close to escaping. If you had asked me before the episode aired if I would be upset that Cersei doesn't actually die at the hands of a character in an up-close, personal and painful death I would have said I'd be unsatisfied, but I wasn't by this. In fact, I was moved by the love between them and by Cersei's fear of death.

As far as I'm concerned, the second tier characters (at least those taking a backseat in this episode) get somewhat satisfying send-offs. I understand Grey Worm's actions and while I am disappointed in him, I also understand him. Tyrion seems determined to betray Danerys and will later try to appear with clean hands, but he hasn't been guiding her well. Given Vary's actions last week, I am pleased he is quickly dispatched without mercy or trial. He was trying to poison her. His line that he hopes his execution is well deserved is an astute and appropriate observation for his character on the show.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Quick and Dead » 13 May 2019, 16:39

I'm fine with the turn Dany's story took but I can never forgive D&D for giving us shortened final seasons when there was clearly a lot of character development needed to get us there. Her dark turn feels too abrupt and needed more time to breathe. Others keep citing various ruthless actions of her throughout the show but when has ever killed innocents? Needlessly too. That's one thing I can't wrap my head around. The Red Keep was right there and she chose to blaze up the streets... Why? Her anger should have been directed towards Cersei and only Cersei really. Where did the anger for the common folk come from?
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medium13
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by medium13 » 13 May 2019, 17:08

I agree more time would be ideal. But, Dany has executed innocents en mass before. She said herself, "Who amongst us in innocent? Perhaps, I'll let my dragons decide." I'm sad for her, but for a series built on round, flawed characters, it's one of many tragic blunders. I won't be viewing her as a "bad guy" the next episode, but someone who fell hopelessly and tragically off course when her fate is ultimately determined next week. There is no doubt in my mind that it will be with her death.

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