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Loki

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sambadaemon
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Re: Loki

Post by sambadaemon » 09 Jun 2021, 15:06

Nu-D wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 14:59
So again, taking the TVA at face value and assuming they’re telling the truth about what they do...
Spoiler: show
In the “sacred timeline” it is essential that both (a) Loki is captured by the Avengers and goes to Asgard to be imprisoned, leading to his mother’s death in The Dark World, and (b) Loki is captured by the Avengers but escapes with the Tesseract to force the events of Endgame.

For both of these things to happen, the TVA has to allow both timelines, and only cuts one off after it has begun.

But which actually happened in the MCU? How did Loki both go to Asgard and escape with the tesseract?
sambadaemon wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 14:52
Spoiler: show
And what about Sharon's already established timeline from the show and her part in the founding of SHIELD? I doubt she could have kept "oh yeah, Cap's not dead. We're actually married." secret from them.
That’s Peggy, not Sharon. And yes, I would say Peggy just kept Steve’s secret. Assuming, that is, that the TVA is being truthfull.
Oh yeah, I meant Peggy. And I don't doubt that she would try to keep his secret. I just don't know if she would have been able to for so long.

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Re: Loki

Post by EphemeristX » 09 Jun 2021, 16:37

Spoiler: show
The TVA is lying or they're wrong. What 'Sacred Timeline' comes from a ton of time jumping?
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Re: Loki

Post by Nu-D » 09 Jun 2021, 17:21

EphemeristX wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 16:37
Spoiler: show
The TVA is lying or they're wrong. What 'Sacred Timeline' comes from a ton of time jumping?
I’m not saying they’re right or telling the truth, but I do think there’s a logic that works here. Basically, while new realities do come into being, the TVA nips them in the bud before they grow. Pruning the branch leaves a stump, but the living tree still grows just straight up.

So after the Multiverse War, there’s a single reality. Sometimes something happens that creates a new branch—it might be a time travel event, or it might be something else (often involving an Infinity Stone). Now there are two realities.

TVA jumps to one of the realities, and they use their little bomb to cut it off. Sometimes, before cutting it off, they take something out of it, which explains how they have a pile of Infinity Stones. It’s also probably where all of the TVA employees come from.

After they cut the branch there’s still just one reality. The time travel that occured within it is predestined in that reality, because the alternate outcomes are pruned away. It’s not that time travel didn’t create alternate realities; it’s that all of the alternate realities which resulted except the one they want were destroyed.

So in the MCU, the 2019 Avengers were always present in New York alongside the 2012 Avengers. We just didn’t know it in 2012. There was never a reality where that time travel didn’t happen. Or if there was, then the TVA jumped over and cut it off before it could grow.

Nor is there a reality where 2014 Thanos failed to jump forward to 2019. If there had been, then the TVA cut it off.

In this episode, when Loki shows up in the Gobi desert, that created an alternate timeline. But the TVA grabs him and the tesseract, and blows that alternate universe up. So all that’s left is the universe from Endgame.

The problem ends up being that the Endgame universe has the paradox I described above. It also has a Thanos paradox. If 2014 Thanos jumped forward to 2019 and was destroy by Banner’s snap in Endgame, then how is he in Infinity War in 2018?

The Thanos paradox is explained by the ability of the TVA to keep bits and pieces of pruned realities.

In 2014 Thanos is busy doing what Thanos does. In the MCU, he never learned about the time traveling Avengers, and he goes on to Infinity War and Thor beheads him in Endgame.

But when the Endgame Avengers travel back and Thanos learns about them, a new universe is split off. Now there are two universes, the MCU and the Alt-1. The TVA allows Alt-1 Thanos to travel over to the MCU for Endgame in 2019, but then after he leaves they destroy Alt-1. Hence, the MCU Thanos stayed in the MCU and shows up in Infinity War, the Alt-1 Thanos shows up in Endgame.

That’s also why there can be multiple Infinity Stones.

For Loki we have a bigger problem. In the MCU, Loki and the tesseract have to go to Asgard. But also in the MCU, Loki has to steal the tesseract to force Tony and Steve to go back further in time. Loki can’t do both things in the MCU, unless we posit new story points that aren’t shown (say, the TVA wipes his memory and puts him and a tesseract back into the MCU to go to Asgard). The TVA can’t cut off the reality where Loki doesn’t steal the tesseract, and they can’t cut off the reality where he does steal the tesseract.

To make this work, I’m going to create a fan theory which I also think helps out to explain Endgame. In this theory, timelines can be re-merged, and the paradoxical histories co-exist. The tree splits, but then the two branches are grafted back together to grow as one.

Let’s go back to how Endgame treated the Infinity Stones. The Avengers can take Infinity Stones from the past and then put them back without creating divergent timelines. If it’s possible timelines to diverge and then be re-united, this works better. An alternate timeline was created when Banner took the Time Stone from the Ancient One, but when Cap returned it, the timelines re-merged and both histories remained real. In the MCU the Time Stone both was and was not in New York during that window of time in 2012.

Similarly, the timelines can re-merge for Loki. He can be both in Asgard for Dark World, and also steal the tesseract in Endgame. Paradox is allowed to coexist because two timelines merge into one.
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Re: Loki

Post by EphemeristX » 09 Jun 2021, 19:50

My biggest problem with that fan theory is that I just do not believe Cap sits idly by and allows the events of history to happen as they did. He would've married Peggy, let her create SHIELD, and not tell her anything about Bucky, Zola, or Hydra? Not to mention the Chitauri invasion or the slaughter of Asgard? I just don't peg (sorry pun) Steve as the sort of pragmatist that lets billions die for the sake of one possible outcome, then show up smugly at the funeral of a man who died a preventable death (as did two of his other closest friends) to hand off the shield to Sam.
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Re: Loki

Post by Spectral Knight » 09 Jun 2021, 20:43

Yeah, I'm taking the TVA claims with a pinch of salt... for now anyway.

There are too many paradoxes for it to make sense. Even before Loki disappeared with the Tesseract, past-Cap did not fight time-travelling-Cap in the original timeline, this seemed like a shock to time-travelling-Cap, whereas logically if this always happened this way because the timelines were re-merged by the TVA, Cap from the relative future would have always known this encounter would have happened, as it had happened to his past self. It must consequently involve a divergence without merger.

So how can realities with conflicting experiences for an individual be merged into one without creating two conflicting histories for that same individual? In Cap's case, one in which he both fought a version of himself and one in which he didn't...

There is...to date anyway...no evidence that the return of the Stones by Cap post final battle even worked (or indeed even happened at all!). That this was even neccessary was Banner's theory following the conversation with the Ancient One, but wasn't part of the initial time heist plan. The Ancient One wasn't even convinced by that, and it was only the revelation that Strange had willingly surrendered the Time Stone to Thanos that convinced her to surrender her version of the Stone, and let's not forget Strange looked into 14m different possible futures in Infinity War, which seemingly wouldn't exist if the TVA were doing their job properly.

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Re: Loki

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Jun 2021, 20:57

Well “viewing” potential futures is different than visiting a currently existing timeline.
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Re: Loki

Post by Nu-D » 09 Jun 2021, 22:32

Spectral Knight wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 20:43
... past-Cap did not fight time-travelling-Cap in the original timeline, this seemed like a shock to time-travelling-Cap, whereas logically if this always happened this way because the timelines were re-merged by the TVA, Cap from the relative future would have always known this encounter would have happened, as it had happened to his past self. It must consequently involve a divergence without merger.

So how can realities with conflicting experiences for an individual be merged into one without creating two conflicting histories for that same individual? In Cap's case, one in which he both fought a version of himself and one in which he didn't...
That’s a fair point. I would posit that the events of Endgame, even those that happened in the “past,” did not happen until Endgame happened. Thus, neither Cap remembered the confrontation until it occurred.

In the merged timeline, going forward from the merger, the memory of the persons involved would be blurred and confused. It’s important to note that memory is not a recording of past events, but an impressionistic experience extracted from them. Future Steve will always remember that day fighting himself, even if he vaguely also recalls the day passing without that happening. Steve from 2012 to 2018 may have kinda-sorta remembered it, but thought of it as a dream or deja vu.

But I’m WAY outside of any source material here. I’m not claiming any of this is how the MCU works. All I’m saying is there’s a plausible way to treat time travel consistent with the TVA’s claims. But I think there’s plenty of reason to be skeptical they’re true.
EphemeristX wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 19:50
My biggest problem with that fan theory is that I just do not believe Cap sits idly by and allows the events of history to happen as they did. He would've married Peggy, let her create SHIELD, and not tell her anything about Bucky, Zola, or Hydra? Not to mention the Chitauri invasion or the slaughter of Asgard? I just don't peg (sorry pun) Steve as the sort of pragmatist that lets billions die for the sake of one possible outcome, then show up smugly at the funeral of a man who died a preventable death (as did two of his other closest friends) to hand off the shield to Sam.
Yeah, it’s not really in character for Cap to retire. In fact, it’s pretty much directly in conflict with the speech he gave Tony in Endgame. He wouldn’t just let things happen the way they did so he could live happily ever after. He’d look for ways to get a win-win, and failing that, he’d sacrifice his own life to make it better for everyone else.

I’d want to know he either thought he couldn’t interfere without making things worse for some reason, or maybe was in fact helping out in the background to make sure everything went in the best possible way.
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Re: Loki

Post by EphemeristX » 09 Jun 2021, 22:55

Yeah, I understand you, Nu-D. And your ideas certainly have some weight. We'll see soon enough.
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Re: Loki

Post by XtremeOne1 » 10 Jun 2021, 01:00

Well...and spoilers for future movies
Spoiler: show
We know the multiverse is coming, that's what Doctor Strange is all about. And don't forget the choice of words during that video. A variant in time can create madness in the multiverse. Doctor Strange 2 is Doctor Strange and the Madness of the Multiverse. So to me that's a hint right that either 1) Wanda becomes the variant or 2) The multi-verses due exist and them not knowing of each other is preventing 'madness' but Wanda does something and the multi-verses become aware of each other.

I'm with the 'the scared timeline' is a trick from the Timekeepers to keep the multi-verse separate. And maybe the Timekeepers are evil(which, you know, Exiles helps prove) and they're keeping the multiverses apart for more nefarious reasons. Where are the Watchers in all this? We know What If is coming as well...more multiverse proof.

Also the writer for this is writing Doctor Strange

Annnd this is the second mention of the Nexus we've heard. in two shows

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Re: Loki

Post by Spectral Knight » 10 Jun 2021, 03:30

Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 20:57
Well “viewing” potential futures is different than visiting a currently existing timeline.
I mean I don't really see how they are different. The Time Stone isn't per se an infinite probability prism as a way of viewing potential events from the current perspective but I understood that each of those "potential" futures DID happen from the perspective of Strange but that he used the Time Stone to pull himself back chronologically to the same point. Whether that pulling himself back prevents a divergent branch I don't know...? Maybe if there is no other time travelling between the uses of the Stone.

That said, I don't know if Strange's magic combined with the Stone would give additional power/complexities to time viewing/travelling.
Nu-D wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 22:32
That’s a fair point. I would posit that the events of Endgame, even those that happened in the “past,” did not happen until Endgame happened. Thus, neither Cap remembered the confrontation until it occurred.
But if Time is a single merged stream, and the Avengers were always supposed to go back in time, as per Moebius' comments to Loki, those events always happened. This is where Time being one single "sacred" path doesn't make any logical sense to me.
In the merged timeline, going forward from the merger, the memory of the persons involved would be blurred and confused. It’s important to note that memory is not a recording of past events, but an impressionistic experience extracted from them. Future Steve will always remember that day fighting himself, even if he vaguely also recalls the day passing without that happening. Steve from 2012 to 2018 may have kinda-sorta remembered it, but thought of it as a dream or deja vu.
I guess I don't understand when a merger such as this could be actioned without some weird ramifications. At some point neither Steve would have had that blurred, confused conflicting memories but then they did but only after then - but from which individual's perspective would this change have happened?
But I’m WAY outside of any source material here. I’m not claiming any of this is how the MCU works. All I’m saying is there’s a plausible way to treat time travel consistent with the TVA’s claims. But I think there’s plenty of reason to be skeptical they’re true.
I think we definitely need to wait and see for more understanding of exactly how the TVA works in relation to what is supposed to happen. I do like your idea that perhaps there is an element of trickery to the TVA re: not wanting people to discover a multiverse but they were pretty ambivalent about the Infinity "paperweights" which seems itself a bit off, as you'd think those Stones combined would offer the potential for all sorts of variants leading to the Multiverse discovery.

That said, am I correct that in the MU multiverse of the comics, the Infinity Gems only work in the universe they're from and they don't function the same once outside of that universe? I vaguely recall this being covered somewhere but I can't for the life of me remember where. Though the Avengers pulling these from divergent realities would seem to suggest the MCU is not limited to quite the same rulebook.

Time travel. Bloody complicated, isn't it.

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Re: Loki

Post by Nu-D » 10 Jun 2021, 11:17

Spectral Knight wrote:
10 Jun 2021, 03:30
Nu-D wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 22:32
In the merged timeline, going forward from the merger, the memory of the persons involved would be blurred and confused. It’s important to note that memory is not a recording of past events, but an impressionistic experience extracted from them. Future Steve will always remember that day fighting himself, even if he vaguely also recalls the day passing without that happening. Steve from 2012 to 2018 may have kinda-sorta remembered it, but thought of it as a dream or deja vu.
I guess I don't understand when a merger such as this could be actioned without some weird ramifications. At some point neither Steve would have had that blurred, confused conflicting memories but then they did but only after then - but from which individual's perspective would this change have happened?
There is no “when.” That’s the point. The only objective view of time is from outside, where the TVA resides, and from that point of view the past, present and future exist simultaneously, just like what’s in front of you, behind you, and by your side all exist simultaneously even if you can only see in one direction.

The person inside time has only a limited perception, and their memories and awareness are distorted. We craft for ourselves a coherent narrative experience in our memory, but it inherently blurs over paradoxes and incoherences we can’t understand.
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Re: Loki

Post by Spectral Knight » 10 Jun 2021, 11:27

This conflicts with what you said before, you would: "posit that the events of Endgame, even those that happened in the “past,” did not happen until Endgame happened. Thus, neither Cap remembered the confrontation until it occurred." Emphasis my own, but the idea something didn't happen UNTIL it happen conflicts with the premise that these events ALWAYS happened this way, there was no root cause, it's a loop that would've always happened. This conflicts completely with the reaction of future-Cap. So once past-Cap had that confrontation, would that not itself cause a divergence, given that we know future-Cap didn't experience this when he was past-Cap.

It's a paradox that can't make sense. If they'd instead had the Bill + Ted's Excellent Adventure route, where the time-loop was clear through their own actions - whereas there's no sign the TVA can 'loop' a divergent branch back around given that the evidence was past-Cap did NOT experience the loop first time around (unlike Bill + Ted who saw their future selves very early on!).

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Re: Loki

Post by sambadaemon » 10 Jun 2021, 20:50

My (obviously very early) theory is that the TimeKeepers are actually much more analogous to the TimeBreakers and are lying about why they're doing what they're doing. I actually thought Loki appearing and first encountering them in a desert might have been a hint at that, since the Exiles first encountered the TimeBrokers in the desert room of the Panopticron.

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Re: Loki

Post by tokenBG1009 » 11 Jun 2021, 14:48

Yeah, I'm thinking this will lead into future Marvel movies.
Spoiler: show
The multi-verse will be broken open and Doctor Strange will be dealing with the ramifications. Also remember we're getting Kang in Ant-Man 3 so there's more multi-versal/time-travel shenanigans coming.
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Re: Loki

Post by XtremeOne1 » 11 Jun 2021, 14:59

tokenBG1009 wrote:
11 Jun 2021, 14:48
Yeah, I'm thinking this will lead into future Marvel movies.
Spoiler: show
The multi-verse will be broken open and Doctor Strange will be dealing with the ramifications. Also remember we're getting Kang in Ant-Man 3 so there's more multi-versal/time-travel shenanigans coming.
Yeah...
Spoiler: show
I definitely feel THE MULTI-VERSE is what the next couple of phases will be about, ending with the Fantastic Four's arrival. I won't speculate how it will lead to X-Men because I know we won't really see the Fox movies so I don't think that will merge as Feige implied hes excited to start fresh there...

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Re: Loki

Post by Gibbering Fool » 12 Jun 2021, 05:42

For sure Loki (the show or the character) will either recreate the multiverse or we'll learn its already in existence and the TVA are lying.

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Re: Loki

Post by das_boot » 12 Jun 2021, 09:49

I didn’t enjoy this. I didn’t hate it either, I just kind of… experienced it? I dunno. This felt a bit like them trying to do an MCU Doctor Who meets Prison Break.
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Re: Loki

Post by Nu-D » 13 Jun 2021, 00:19

das_boot wrote:
12 Jun 2021, 09:49
I didn’t enjoy this. I didn’t hate it either, I just kind of… experienced it? I dunno. This felt a bit like them trying to do an MCU Doctor Who meets Prison Break.
I was actually a little surprised at how uninspired Hiddleston was. He seemed a little tired of it all. Amd looked a little out of shape.
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Re: Loki

Post by P-90 » 13 Jun 2021, 00:42

I enjoyed it for the most part, it actually reignited my excitement for MCU shows again after the disappointed I felt with FATWS. I was surprised that Loki didn't have and knowledge of the TVA though, given their history I'd assume think the Asgardians would know about them, or at least there would be some mention of them in the historical records which I'd assume Loki has had access to (whether it was with permission or without)
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Re: Loki

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 13 Jun 2021, 00:48

Nobody is supposed to know about the TVA until they're pruned to maintain the belief there are no divergent timelines.

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Re: Loki

Post by Gibbering Fool » 13 Jun 2021, 10:45

I'm currently rewatching Doctor Strange and they certainly mention the multiverse alot. It makes me wonder how sorcerers couldn't be aware there's only one timeline.

It also potentially throws water on all the speculation about these third Spider-Man film featuring characters from the other Song films.

And I would have happily accepted Agents of Shield as a branching reality from the main MCU reality but now its non canon I guess.

Of course this could all change by the end of the series

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Re: Loki

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Jun 2021, 13:42

Gibbering Fool wrote:
13 Jun 2021, 10:45
I'm currently rewatching Doctor Strange and they certainly mention the multiverse alot. It makes me wonder how sorcerers couldn't be aware there's only one timeline.

It also potentially throws water on all the speculation about these third Spider-Man film featuring characters from the other Song films.

And I would have happily accepted Agents of Shield as a branching reality from the main MCU reality but now its non canon I guess.

Of course this could all change by the end of the series
Since it’s still early days but perhaps to sorcerers the multiverse is different dimensions and actual universes, not timelines? Like maybe we’re seeing an omniverse situation here…

Of course it could be just as simple as the TVA is lying
And considering Loki and DS2 share head writers …well I think we’ll have a better idea about time travel at the end.
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Re: Loki

Post by Nu-D » 13 Jun 2021, 15:50

In the context of the show, it’s not accurate to say there’s only one timeline. There are infinite timelines, but the TVA destroys everyone except for the sacred one. So the sorcerers could know that new timelines come into existence and believe that they persist without being aware that the TV comes in and destroys them.
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Re: Loki

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Jun 2021, 16:07

Nu-D wrote:
13 Jun 2021, 15:50
In the context of the show, it’s not accurate to say there’s only one timeline. There are infinite timelines, but the TVA destroys everyone except for the sacred one. So the sorcerers could know that new timelines come into existence and believe that they persist without being aware that the TV comes in and destroys them.

Well that’s what I meant that there’s only 1 surviving timeline.
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