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Lord of the Rings tv show

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Nu-D
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Nu-D » 21 Nov 2019, 01:32

Anna Raven wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 01:23
Nu-D wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 01:10
Anna Raven wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 00:59


That's not quite accurate, Sam was tempted, in fact he was very reluctant to give the ring back to Frodo when he asked for it back. He even had visions of becoming a King and a great hero who would take down Sauron. But he only held the ring for a relatively short time and so you are correct that he never used it, and after his brief moment of delusion, he did return it, something very few others would be able to do.

What I would argue is not that the Bagginses had a dark streak and Sam was pure and innocent, but rather Frodo (and Bilbo) were more at the upper crust of "Hobbit society" (which was still relatively mundane compared to say lordly humans or elves) whereas Sam didn't have the benefit of education or rank and so he was more used to being dutiful. This is reinforced by Tokien's own remarks that Sam was based on the noncommissioned officers of WWI, the sergeants and corporals, who he considered the real heroes of the war. He admired how dutiful and loyal they were to their men and their country.

I know people's reaction to Frodo from the movies is that he was annoying and not very heroic, but keep in mind, the idea was that a Hobbit was more resistant to the call of the ring than any human, dwarf, or elf could be. He carried the ring far longer than anyone should have been able to without giving into its power. Even Gandalf would have been turned to evil nearly instantly if he'd taken possession of it. The movies might not do a good job of conveying this to non-book readers.
It’s been so long since I read the books (30 years?!?), your memory is almost certainly more accurate than mine.

How do the different social statuses of the Bagginses and the Gamgees relate to their experiences with the ring? Or were the different experiences solely related to the amount of exposure, not their social status and personalities?
I'm not positive but I think Tolkien was trying to say that while having rank and education had positives, for example you were generally a more complicated individual with much more responsibility on your shoulders, it also came with negatives such as being more fallible and easily tempted by things like wealth and power. Whereas a more common person might be of simpler means, but also simpler aspirations and thus ultimately more loyal. This is something that once again is straight from Tokien's own life experiences, because while he came from a well to do family, after his father died, his mother had trouble making ends meet and so he spent time as a ward of the Church for much of his teenage years. So he kind of spent time in both worlds.

I think it's part class and personality, but also just part length of exposure as well.
I guess I was asking how it manifests in the different effects the ring has on Frodo and Sam. I thought Sam really didn’t have the same temptations, and instead was tired and tormented. But you’re likely right and I don’t remember correctly. So how did the ring affect him differently based on his humble status?

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Anna Raven
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Anna Raven » 21 Nov 2019, 01:48

Nu-D wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 01:32
Anna Raven wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 01:23
Nu-D wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 01:10


It’s been so long since I read the books (30 years?!?), your memory is almost certainly more accurate than mine.

How do the different social statuses of the Bagginses and the Gamgees relate to their experiences with the ring? Or were the different experiences solely related to the amount of exposure, not their social status and personalities?
I'm not positive but I think Tolkien was trying to say that while having rank and education had positives, for example you were generally a more complicated individual with much more responsibility on your shoulders, it also came with negatives such as being more fallible and easily tempted by things like wealth and power. Whereas a more common person might be of simpler means, but also simpler aspirations and thus ultimately more loyal. This is something that once again is straight from Tokien's own life experiences, because while he came from a well to do family, after his father died, his mother had trouble making ends meet and so he spent time as a ward of the Church for much of his teenage years. So he kind of spent time in both worlds.

I think it's part class and personality, but also just part length of exposure as well.
I guess I was asking how it manifests in the different effects the ring has on Frodo and Sam. I thought Sam really didn’t have the same temptations, and instead was tired and tormented. But you’re likely right and I don’t remember correctly. So how did the ring affect him differently based on his humble status?
Mostly just the fact he was able to return the ring to Frodo, the sheer act of doing that would have been difficult for almost anybody once it was in their possession. Think about how hard Gollum struggled to get the ring back.

I do think Sam really believed he was just doing Frodo a favor by carrying the ring for him during a time in which it was impossible for him to do so (right after being nearly killed by Shelob). In the end though even humble Sam was deluded into believing the ring could make him a great warrior and hero. Note that even his delusions were noble though. Galadriel's delusions for example were far less altruistic.
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Spectral Knight » 21 Nov 2019, 06:10

I'm a little uncomfortable with the proposition that a humble beginning reflects a lack of aspiration. Whilst I'm sure it probably was somewhat Tolkien's intent as you rightly said Anna, I prefer not to read it in that way as it simplifies the contrast between Frodo and Sam to an issue of class (and annoys me on a more fundamental level giving my own working class background), while interpreting as the difference in exposure (and to a degree the weight of expectations), I think is a more interesting differentiation.

What I find interesting about Sam is that he did become the hero he was tempted to become, and his role as Mayor of the Shires following his return showcased his leadership as well. Sam's the don for me.

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Anna Raven
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Anna Raven » 21 Nov 2019, 07:55

Spectral Knight wrote:
21 Nov 2019, 06:10
I'm a little uncomfortable with the proposition that a humble beginning reflects a lack of aspiration. Whilst I'm sure it probably was somewhat Tolkien's intent as you rightly said Anna, I prefer not to read it in that way as it simplifies the contrast between Frodo and Sam to an issue of class (and annoys me on a more fundamental level giving my own working class background), while interpreting as the difference in exposure (and to a degree the weight of expectations), I think is a more interesting differentiation.

What I find interesting about Sam is that he did become the hero he was tempted to become, and his role as Mayor of the Shires following his return showcased his leadership as well. Sam's the don for me.
I guess I would just point out that lacking lofty aspirations isn't necessary a bad thing, especially to Tolkien. He made it abundantly clear in the subtext that a simple life was a noble life. The hobbits who live a simple rural, pastoral lifestyle are portrayed as happy and hard working. Whereas "wise Saruman" and his orcs who destroy the landscape and industrialize the land around Isengard are shown as greedy and evil.

Sam is just kind of the epitome of that thesis, moreso than even the other hobbits. All he ever wanted in life was to marry Rosie Cotton and raise a family. He got his wish, and rose not only to be a Mayor, but a hero of all Middle Earth, which shows that his simple country ways were not a hindrance to him, but may have actually been the underlying qualities that made him so heroic.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Cable » 18 Dec 2019, 22:49

There have been some cast members announced already but this is the first that is a major known character:
Spoiler: show
Morfydd Clark is Galadriel
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Anna Raven » 19 Dec 2019, 17:18

I wonder if this show will have any star power or if it will almost all be relatively unknown actors/actresses. Tbf the OG Lotr movies only really had Ian McKellan, Sean Bean, John Rhys-Davies, and Cate Blanchette who were really well known at the time, and none of them were giant mega-stars.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Cable » 24 Sep 2022, 03:21

How are there no posts yet on the greatest television event of our lifetimes.

As someone who is a huge LOTR fan (as in my first-born child is named after a character) I was very anxious about this show. I had very high expectations.

And I am very pleased to see them being met! This is a show for fans. Honestly I don't know if it would even be enjoyable for someone who is not a big fan (if anyone fits this criteria let me know your thoughts). But if you are familiar with the lore it is fantastic to see it all coming together (though purists may be irked that they are making concurrent what should be events that take place over a couple thousand years). You can tell the expense they put into it because everything is gorgeous. It honestly just feels like another LotR movie. I am devouring every episode and the wait in between is unbearable.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Sep 2022, 04:23

I like it alot…and I’ve never read the books. In fact, I think it is superior to GoT. Why? Because it doesn’t rely on boobs, gore and sensationalism. I stopped like GoT because I felt like it did lack the wonder and excitement I like with my fantasy. This show manages to have that while also still keeping it very serious. The only critique I’ve heard that resonates to me is that supposedly the Elves are being portrayed as too “human”, that they should basically be like demi-gods. Is that true?
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
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Anna Raven
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Anna Raven » 24 Sep 2022, 05:59

Yes I am also really enjoying it - its got a lot of great Easter Eggs and stuff from the books packed in for the fanboy in me, but also plenty of new material to keep me interested and surprised occasionally.

Regarding the elves: yes the elves should be viewed as much more accomplished than humans, they start out as more gifted physically, and then they live basically forever as long as they aren't killed in a violent way, so that gives them the time to become more intelligent and wise as well. But having said that, I think if you make elves TOO patently "alien" then you risk making them completely unrelatable. Yes, they should be better than a human in almost every way, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have their own flaws and foibles and quirks. I personally like how they are portraying both Galadriel and Elrond, as very accomplished in their own individual ways, but still very much flawed when it comes to their own inner struggles. I mean for example, Galadriel can whip an entire battalion of Numenoreans (who are no slouches themselves - Numenoreans are essentially the "super soldiers" of mankind) during a training exercise. This shows she is much more skilled and gifted than them physically. But in the same episode they show how she is still weighed down feelings of guilt and betrayal, which are very normal feeling for any person.

Keep in mind for every "demi-god" in Tolkien's universe there is someone who is "more powerful" than them, so it's all relative. Halflings/Harfoots are seen as lesser than normal humans who are lesser than dwarves who are a little underpowered compared to Numenoreans who are not as powerful as elves who are a clear step below the Istari (ie Gandalf) who are a lesser version of Maiar compared to say Sauron who is in all probability not as powerful as Tom Bombadil, the most powerful and oldest being on Middle Earth, but that's not even counting Morkoth and the Valar who are ALL less powerful than Eru Iluvatar.

And I didn't even include eagles, balrogs, and dragons in my diatribe!
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Cable » 24 Sep 2022, 08:14

Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Sep 2022, 04:23
I like it alot…and I’ve never read the books. In fact, I think it is superior to GoT. Why? Because it doesn’t rely on boobs, gore and sensationalism. I stopped like GoT because I felt like it did lack the wonder and excitement I like with my fantasy. This show manages to have that while also still keeping it very serious. The only critique I’ve heard that resonates to me is that supposedly the Elves are being portrayed as too “human”, that they should basically be like demi-gods. Is that true?
Glad to hear this BC. I was a little concerned because it isn't like an action-packed show with cliffhangers. It is a show of slowly building plots that are going to culminate in great events, a true saga befitting Tolkien's legacy. And I think it has some beautiful writing, like Gil-galad's speech about hope in the fifth episode.

But the real complaint should be that those cowards didn't give Dwarf women beards :lol:
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Anna Raven » 24 Sep 2022, 09:19

Cable wrote:
24 Sep 2022, 08:14
Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Sep 2022, 04:23
I like it alot…and I’ve never read the books. In fact, I think it is superior to GoT. Why? Because it doesn’t rely on boobs, gore and sensationalism. I stopped like GoT because I felt like it did lack the wonder and excitement I like with my fantasy. This show manages to have that while also still keeping it very serious. The only critique I’ve heard that resonates to me is that supposedly the Elves are being portrayed as too “human”, that they should basically be like demi-gods. Is that true?
Glad to hear this BC. I was a little concerned because it isn't like an action-packed show with cliffhangers. It is a show of slowly building plots that are going to culminate in great events, a true saga befitting Tolkien's legacy. And I think it has some beautiful writing, like Gil-galad's speech about hope in the fifth episode.

But the real complaint should be that those cowards didn't give Dwarf women beards :lol:
Durin's wife does have sideburns though. It's likely she shaves her beard and mustache.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by EphemeristX » 25 Sep 2022, 22:47

I've watched the movies but never really read anything of Tolkien's, but I am also quite enjoying this. Like others have said, this show does well to keep the wonder and mystery of a fantasy setting. I'm kind of gritty-ed out and haven't really been a fan of Game of Thrones since the second rape scene.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by WorldWideWade » 25 Sep 2022, 23:00

Sorry to be the contrarian but I find the show rather boring, to the point that I literally fell asleep a couple times. I love the Lord of the Rings films and tolerated the Hobbit movies. I read the books a long time ago but found them rather dry (except Hobbit). Overall, I consider myself a casual fan that should be the target audience.

I definitely recognize the amazing effort and money poured into these effects, costuming, setting, etc. Also the acting is amazing. However, I do get the sense this series was made by mega fans for mega fans. When casual Lord of the Rings fans like myself and my friend group find ourselves bored and quitting the show, I'm not sure how non-fans could get into it. I just don't understand how they could have invested SO much money into a show that appeals to such a niche audience.

Personally, I prefer House of the Dragon for the relatable characters and morally gray intrigue. I may eventually go back to Rings of Power as I do appreciate the production value. Hopefully I'll get more invested soon.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by AntiBody » 25 Sep 2022, 23:50

Loving this show! Just finished the latest episode, #5, just now!

I grew up on the books and the movies are immense comforts to me (specifically LOTR and decidedly not the Hobbit films). I'll throw the movies on for just about any occasion: something familiar, when I'm feeling down, when I'm happy, etc. There are moments when I feel this show doesn't *quite* meet the vibes of the movies, but I also understand that there's a lot of distance between these stories, so no biggie for me.

Also loving that the show doesn't rely on sex, gore, and vulgarity. Don't get me wrong, vulgarity is one of my love languages, but GoT's influence needn't be felt everywhere, you know?

Really excited to see where this show goes! And I'm glad this thread has been revitalized in the forum!! :D
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Magnus » 26 Sep 2022, 05:57

WorldWideWade wrote:
25 Sep 2022, 23:00
Sorry to be the contrarian but I find the show rather boring, to the point that I literally fell asleep a couple times. I love the Lord of the Rings films and tolerated the Hobbit movies. I read the books a long time ago but found them rather dry (except Hobbit). Overall, I consider myself a casual fan that should be the target audience.

I definitely recognize the amazing effort and money poured into these effects, costuming, setting, etc. Also the acting is amazing. However, I do get the sense this series was made by mega fans for mega fans. When casual Lord of the Rings fans like myself and my friend group find ourselves bored and quitting the show, I'm not sure how non-fans could get into it. I just don't understand how they could have invested SO much money into a show that appeals to such a niche audience.

Personally, I prefer House of the Dragon for the relatable characters and morally gray intrigue. I may eventually go back to Rings of Power as I do appreciate the production value. Hopefully I'll get more invested soon.
I'm with you Wade, I've found Rings of Power to be dreadfully boring so far. I never read the books, but like you absolutely adore the LOTR films.

The show is very pretty, but hollow feeling. I like bits of it - Elron and Durin's friendship is great (though the actual Elrond plot doesn't do much for me). Galadriel was great the first few episodes, though she got frustrating once she got to Numenor - hopefully now that she's left things will pick back up again. The Harfoots are charming but I'm not digging Mystery Meteor Guy (who I'm guessing is
Spoiler: show
Gandalf
Everyone else bores me, which means certain entire plotlines (such as the villagers, or most of the Numenor folk - do we need to spend so much time on Isildur's sister and her boyfriend?) get me looking at my phone when they're onscreen.

I think overall the plots are just spread far too thin, with a lack of interesting antagonist to help drive things, and too many mystery characters/trinkets. Compare to the beginning of LOTR, where we 1) get to see Sauron in action, so we have an established villain, 2) spend a bunch of time with the Hobbits to make them likeable and show what's at stake, 3) immediately are given a clear goal (get the ring to be destroyed) and establish the roadblocks (Nazgul, etc.) Here, we're just told that Sauron is the bad guy (relying on name recognition from other media), and that he's gathering power. I actually LOL'd at the villager who asked evil Elf dude if he was Sauron, because I bet a lot of casual viewers are asking the same thing. Hell, we're five episodes in and the title objects haven't even been mentioned or alluded to, much less shown up.

Combine that with generally uninteresting and subpar writing/scripting, and yeah, it's a dud of a show. Example from the last episode: there's a whole plot about Pharazon trying to undermine the decision to supply Galadriel with ships and an army. His son isn't happy with playing the long game so he blows up some of the ships. He is discovered and apparently suffers no punishment. Halbrand gets summoned for the fateful meeting to decide if the armada will proceed as planned, but he leaves his king trinket behind... then without explanation for his change of heart, he picks it back up, and next thing we know the ships are all leaving, with the fateful meeting apparently all occurring off screen. The buildup, pacing and resolution is just all outta whack.

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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by EphemeristX » 26 Sep 2022, 13:25

The difference is that LotR is a quest. This is a mystery. It's not going to have a simply laid out plot with stakes. It's opening with a series of questions with which we're being dripfed answers. That's how these kinds of shows work. I understand if that's not what you wanted, but that's what it is.

I feel like opening with the hunt for this evil and the burgeoning spread of darkness that's happening in Middle Earth is setting expectations correctly.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by WorldWideWade » 26 Sep 2022, 13:47

I can appreciate a slow burn mystery but this one does not keep me engaged. Look at a show like Severance. It is also a mystery that builds super slow but it thrilling to watch and has characters that are relatable and likable.

Checking RottenTomatoes, the critical praise is great but the Audience score is 39%. That is terrible. If the mainstream audiences are disliking the show at those ratios it shows that it was definitely not worth the MASSIVE investment. It was already renewed for a second season though so Amazon can spend its money however it wants I guess.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Sep 2022, 13:48

Actually the rings of power have been hinted at…the entire plot with the dwarves is about the rings.
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Sep 2022, 13:50

WorldWideWade wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 13:47
I can appreciate a slow burn mystery but this one does not keep me engaged. Look at a show like Severance, which it is also a mystery that builds super slow but it thrilling to watch.

Checking RottenTomatoes, the critical praise is great but the Audience score is 39%. That is terrible. If the mainstream audiences are disliking the show at those ratios it shows that it was definitely not worth the MASSIVE investment. It was already renewed for a second season though so Amazon can spend its money however it wants I guess.
I’m not taking the Audience seriously because of racism, sorry. When they made a light-skin Elf and Black dwarf, the internets went aflame and review bombed it (just like She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel…because racism and sexism).
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by WorldWideWade » 26 Sep 2022, 13:53

Fair point, but racism cannot fully account for the number of legitimate criticisms the show is receiving.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by EphemeristX » 26 Sep 2022, 14:10

LotR is definitely being reviewbombed. Yes, the show has fair criticism, but there's no way the show would be sitting anywhere near 39% without racists.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Magnus » 26 Sep 2022, 14:52

WorldWideWade wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 13:47
I can appreciate a slow burn mystery but this one does not keep me engaged. Look at a show like Severance. It is also a mystery that builds super slow but it thrilling to watch and has characters that are relatable and likable.
Yeah that's a really good comparison.
Blackcyclops wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 13:48
Actually the rings of power have been hinted at…the entire plot with the dwarves is about the rings.
Has there actually been mention of the Rings, or are you just able to extrapolate that because of your previous outside-the-show knowledge about how the Rings were forged? Because if it's the latter, I don't think that really counts. It's sort of the same thing with Isildur - he's only just barely interesting because of his name and because a fan will recognize who he is. Change his name to Joe and he becomes as forgettable as all the villagers.

This may be unduly cynical but I definitely feel like the slow pace and Mystery Box writing is purposeful by Amazon, not for quality reasons but just to pump up the metrics. Give people some questions then sloooooowly drag it out. It doesn't matter if your audience loves or merely tolerates the show, as long as they stay signed up for Amazon Prime. Obviously you run the risk of losing too many viewers if interest in the show dips too far, but it's better to have people disinterestedly watching (and stay watching/signed up) for a longer time than tell a better, tight, taut story for a shorter time. I dunno if we have many ARPG players here but it reminds me of what's going on with Path of Exile, where the game makers keep making the game more grindy and difficult because (they think) it keeps the number of hours in the game higher even if the players enjoy each hour less.

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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Sep 2022, 15:06

Well I mean, going from that logic, then why bring up if the rings were mentioned or not? I mean if you have zero prior knowledge (I’ve only seen the films), then sure you’re curious about the title of the show (then again ring could mean literal physical ring or people standing in a circle or a ring mark around something) but it probably wouldn’t be a big point you’d bring up as a critique of the show. Instead it would be a curiosity at best…
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Anna Raven » 26 Sep 2022, 21:59

Like BC said, the rings haven't been explicitly mentioned in the show, but c'mon the show is named "Rings of Power" and you have to realize the moment forges and ancient magical metals were introduced, that's where it's heading. If that's some kind of secret, it's the worst kept secret ever.
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Re: Lord of the Rings tv show

Post by Magnus » 27 Sep 2022, 02:28

Don't get me wrong, it's not really a complaint. I'd feel the exact same way about the show if it was called something like LOTR: The Second Age or whatever. Just thought it was amusing given how slow the show has been moving that the title objects haven't shown up yet, and someone not familiar with the source material could well be asking "so when do the rings show up?" every episode so far.

If they go unmentioned all season and the last line of the season finale is Elrond saying something akin to "and this is how we will save the Elven people, with these RINGS OF POWER" (roll credits) I will take back every criticism I've made of this show.

/s because there's an above-zero chance that actually happens and someone will take me seriously

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