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Hawkeye

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Spectral Knight
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Nov 2021, 15:23

I didn't think it was confirmed as a SA in any case. It was an assault/attack, and it certainly could be read as a sexual assault, more than anything though it was an attack on someone who (at the time) couldn't fight back.

I mean - I don't particularly care too much that part of her origin is lost, I kinda like the way the loss of her father during the Battle of NY ties that loss in with the heroism of Clint from the same day, it's a (to me) more interesting story that integrates her more broadly into the MCU. Kate often felt like the odd one out of the original YA as she didn't really have a family connection like the other YAs did, so as a change, it's a bit better.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by das_boot » 25 Nov 2021, 15:35

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m cool with them skipping that, I really really REALLY am given how terribly it’s been proven that other studios are at handling that… but I feel like this Kate is missing an edge to her? I’m explaining this REALLY badly
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Nov 2021, 16:08

I get she's a bit more 'breezy' (is that the right word? Bit lighter, floatier) - that she's not quite as hard-edged, I suppose. But I didn't think her (at least in Heinberg's books or Gillen's first arc) was so dark as if this change felt completely off. Couldn't comment on Fraction's run though which might portray a bit differently.

I dunno, for me, I've warmed to Steinfeld's portrayal. An open question for me now though given her relative age, is how would she fit in with the other YAs we've seen on film to date? WandaVision's Billy and Tommy are MUCH younger, Eli from FAWS was hard to guess on age - maybe late teens. Cassie will be about the same age as Kate (she always seemed much younger to me in YA?) based on Kathyn Newton's casting. Dunno if Hulking is on the agenda or not. Kid Loki was pretty young in Loki, but he was very young in YA. Miss America's is played by a (comparatively) younger actress in Xochitl Gomez. I dunno what the core cast of a theoretical YA will be, but I think it's a given they're working towards it... I just hope they get the balance between each cast member right.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Nov 2021, 17:13

I think frankly they’re going that route because for TV and the MCU legacy characters kinda gotta have some type of “mentor” like relationship with their hero…Kamala is going to be the first one who will probably be completely self-taught.

Comics is different because superheroes/vigilantes are just so ubiquitous, whereas in the MCU the superheroes were either urban legends (like Spidey) or basically super powered soldiers-extensions of governments. We’ve yet to fully establish them as this bigger than 1 government force to the general public.

This is really the first street level vigilante style MCU property if we’re being honest. We’ve yet to get our FF, X-Men and Moon Knight type of presences. The anti-reg Avengers came close but they were still on the low.
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by tokenBG1009 » 25 Nov 2021, 17:25

das_boot wrote:
25 Nov 2021, 15:35
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m cool with them skipping that, I really really REALLY am given how terribly it’s been proven that other studios are at handling that… but I feel like this Kate is missing an edge to her? I’m explaining this REALLY badly
I understand you because I feel like I'm near enough in opinion that you're just saying what I believe.

Like, I expected Kate to be more in line with the two other roles I've experienced from her: Vi from Arcane and Gwen from Into the Spider-Verse. Both had this experience and edge to them, not EDGY though. It's also just what my limited experience of her has been. Though I'm not really capable of judging her based on that experience.

Still, I don't mind the character she's playing here and I don't dislike the show. I just had expectations and I need to drop them.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 25 Nov 2021, 17:43

I think the fangirl angle is a bit goofy and not true to the comics. But I think her mix of hyper-competent skills with inexperience covered up by bravado is pretty consistent with the Fraction and Kelly runs. She’s less experienced here, but even in those books she still makes mistakes and looks to senior heroes for guidance. In the Kelly run she calls in Jessica Drew because she’s not experienced in investigations, and she makes mistakes in her plans by not thinking of contingencies and silly things like falling through a roof that’s not strong enough to hold her. That’s pretty consistent with the show, IMO.

This is about the equivalent of falling through a skylight:
IMG_0028.jpg
IMG_0028.jpg (722.9 KiB) Viewed 663 times

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das_boot
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by das_boot » 25 Nov 2021, 19:08

Spectral Knight wrote:
25 Nov 2021, 16:08
I get she's a bit more 'breezy' (is that the right word? Bit lighter, floatier) - that she's not quite as hard-edged, I suppose. But I didn't think her (at least in Heinberg's books or Gillen's first arc) was so dark as if this change felt completely off. Couldn't comment on Fraction's run though which might portray a bit differently.

I dunno, for me, I've warmed to Steinfeld's portrayal. An open question for me now though given her relative age, is how would she fit in with the other YAs we've seen on film to date? WandaVision's Billy and Tommy are MUCH younger, Eli from FAWS was hard to guess on age - maybe late teens. Cassie will be about the same age as Kate (she always seemed much younger to me in YA?) based on Kathyn Newton's casting. Dunno if Hulking is on the agenda or not. Kid Loki was pretty young in Loki, but he was very young in YA. Miss America's is played by a (comparatively) younger actress in Xochitl Gomez. I dunno what the core cast of a theoretical YA will be, but I think it's a given they're working towards it... I just hope they get the balance between each cast member right.
You and Token have hit the nail on the head for me and my meandering and nonsensical thoughts.

As for the other YA…

Cassie was for sure the youngest (other than MAYBE teen Vision technically only being a few days/weeks old). I feel like Kate and Eli were consistently pinned down as the eldest (Kate was the first to turn 21). America… yeah, she should have been similar in age to Kate, or perhaps a couple years younger? Billy/Tommy I’m PRETTY sure were referenced as being seniors (???) by the time of the Heinberg series. Teddy would be roughly the same age as the twins.
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Nov 2021, 21:39

Yeah, I thought America seemed older than most of the YA (to me). It might be maturity more than physical age though but she seemed at least as old as Kate.

Likewise, I felt Eli carried himself with more gravitas (for a teen / young adult) than say the twins or Teddy but he wasn't necessarily older.

Saying that, I'm not certain an MCU YA will be a 1:1 match of any YA roster. I think there's a good chance of combining the team with the Champions (Kamala and RiRi are already set to be major players going forward)

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by XtremeOne1 » 26 Nov 2021, 14:23

Yeah, I always felt like Cassie was the youngest of the group but I think that's because we saw her de-aged/re-aged a couple times? It looks like her and Kate will be about the same age now. My guess is the twins be aged up once more before appearing in any Young Avengers show. No way they'll pass up the Hulking/Wiccan romance. America, I definitely took as older and I have more than a few qualms with the casting(and storyline rumor) for her..

I liked Steinfeld in this. Is she the Kate I imagined? Not 100%. I agree I feel Kate would have more of of an edge, less girl in a tuxedo and more girl who'd picked the sexier red dress, who might idolize Clint but not show it to him, at least. But I liked the character of Kate her, either way and thought Steinfeld made a great lead. I'm glad they skipped the SA and I like the new origin. I've got a feeling Kate will be the one to gather the YA after being inspired by Hawkeye. Plus, her origin is still tied to not wanting to be a victim again or to feel scared. Hawkeye was just the spark.

I can't say much in terms of plot, as I'm not sure there was much. This seems to be a character dramaedy, and I think it's balancing that better than Falcon and Winter Soldier. I'm hoping the plot gets deeper, and I'm excited to see Echo and to see Clint drama with his trauma.

Also Kate's mom is totally a bad guy.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Nov 2021, 15:08

It would be cool if the YA are gathered without a govt sanction and by Kate. It would make them real vigilantes, show the power of the unpowered and be done so by a female character.

It kinda would make sense if the YA lineup is Kate, Stature, Wiccan/Speed (magic origins), Patriot, Iron Heart and Ms. Marvel…that way you would basically have everyone already sorta introduced with really Patriot being the one who needs the most development (of course Hulkling could be introduced in Secret Invasion!!!).
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 26 Nov 2021, 21:05

There's speculation albino Vision will serve the same function on Young Avengers that Red Tornado did for Young Justice.
Tony Dalton is just so damn charming. I'm gonna be so disappointed when he doesn't wear the Swordsman costume.
Is the Ronin suit going to be passed around from Clint to Kate to Grills to Echo to Swordsman?

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 01 Dec 2021, 12:38

If the Ronin sword blade retracts into its handle for portability like Taskmaster's, why did Clint carry it with a full scabbard?
Not only did KB Toys not take up entire buildings, it would've been completely stripped of all inventory & converted to other usage by now. Sorry, this is where the MCU irreparably diverges from our reality.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 01 Dec 2021, 13:01

EvilMonkeyPope wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 12:38
If the Ronin sword blade retracts into its handle for portability like Taskmaster's, why did Clint carry it with a full scabbard?
Not only did KB Toys not take up entire buildings, it would've been completely stripped of all inventory & converted to other usage by now. Sorry, this is where the MCU irreparably diverges from our reality.
That’s a KB Showroom, similar to one I used to visit in NY as a kid. There are plenty of derelict retail spaces out there. There’s a whole mall where I grew up that’s been sitting empty for 30-years. I agree about the inventory, though, and shelving. That stuff would have been sold, and what wasn’t sold would have been stolen long ago.

The opening scenes of Maya’s childhood were quite powerful, even more so with the knowledge that the adult actress isn’t faking the prosthesis or deafness. Particularly the glimpse of her prosthesis and her relationship with her father. I’m impressed by the casting and by the performer. I wonder, did she do her own fight scenes?

That car chase was great. A nice change of perspective to do it from the inside of the car. And the Clint-Kate dynamic really clicked. One of the best scenes in an D+ show yet. And those closing credits are perfect.

Next up: Hawkeye v. Swordsman. I predict a perfunctory fight, cut short by an “it’s all a misunderstanding.” Kate’s mom comes in and breaks it up. Kate launches into accusations. Clint stops her and apologizes for breaking in and gets ready to leave. Kate sputters about how suspicious Jack is, but Clint leaves and after leaving reveals his long game to her, which involves retrieving the sword and reveals some tidbit linking Madame Masque and Swordsman to Kingpin and Echo.

Not really a spoiler, but rather a prediction:
Spoiler: show
I think the Ronin who killed Echo’s father was Bullseye, not Clint. We know Kingpin is here and Murdock is coming. Put Bullseye on the board and we’re set for the MCU to tell a Daredevil story.
Last edited by Nu-D on 01 Dec 2021, 14:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 01 Dec 2021, 14:04

Great episode. The Kate / Clint dynamic continues to add layers (the phone scene with his youngest was touching particularly as the audience were as reliant on Kate as Clint was).

I liked the reference to just how long Clint has been Hawkeye - he references 20 years in the shadows...

The costume sketch was indicative of Kate's continuing terrible artwork and a touch meta but I think it just about worked given that in the MCU we know there are heroes who operate in more traditional comic costumes.

The reference to Maya's "uncle" was just too much of a tease. Her father was interesting, I don't really know too much of Echo's backstory but he was engaging and caring and funny and clearly adored his daughter. The actress who plays adult Maya is nailing it. The prosthesis isn't an aspect of her comics character at all, correct?

Also, some of the fight scenes in the warehouse were great.

And the Pym arrow? Brilliant and unexpected, and ingenious.

Only complaint is this episode seemed to absolutely fly by. Seriously I had to pause to check the timings and I honestly don't know where the 37 minutes went, which is indicative of how enjoyable this episode was.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 01 Dec 2021, 14:09

Spectral Knight wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 14:04
Great episode. The Kate / Clint dynamic continues to add layers (the phone scene with his youngest was touching particularly as the audience were as reliant on Kate as Clint was).

I liked the reference to just how long Clint has been Hawkeye - he references 20 years in the shadows...

The costume sketch was indicative of Kate's continuing terrible artwork and a touch meta but I think it just about worked given that in the MCU we know there are heroes who operate in more traditional comic costumes.

The reference to Maya's "uncle" was just too much of a tease. Her father was interesting, I don't really know too much of Echo's backstory but he was engaging and caring and funny and clearly adored his daughter. The actress who plays adult Maya is nailing it. The prosthesis isn't an aspect of her comics character at all, correct?

Also, some of the fight scenes in the warehouse were great.

And the Pym arrow? Brilliant and unexpected, and ingenious.

Only complaint is this episode seemed to absolutely fly by. Seriously I had to pause to check the timings and I honestly don't know where the 37 minutes went, which is indicative of how enjoyable this episode was.
Echo did not have a prosthesis when she debuted in Daredevil. If she’s got one now, it must have been a story development. Her father was a Kingpin ally, and Kingpin was her “uncle.” They had a falling out and Kingpin had her father killed, but then took her in as a foster daughter. He told her Daredevil killed her dad, and sicced her on him. She later learned Kingpin was responsible for killing her father, so she switched sides. Her origin issues have gorgeous art by David Mack, who was also the writer. DD v.2, 51-55. Highly recommended.

I love her prosthesis. I hope the MCU doesn’t bother with her mimic powers, and just let’s her be an exceptionally trained combatant like Clint, Kate and (probably) Natasha. With the prosthesis, it makes her uniquely talented to be able to fight like that.

Also, I thought this episode had some of the best bow action we’ve seen in the entire MCU. I feel like most of the time Clint has used his bow in long range action, but when things get tight he switches to hand-to-hand. Here there were a bunch of sequences using the bow at close range, which was slick and exciting.

—-

Off topic edit: this inspired me to dig out Mack’s Echo story, and I forgot how exceptional it is. Gorgeous painted art showing a profound blend of Klimt, Picasso, expressionism and Bill Sienkewitz. Mack is probably the most innovative artist in comics today.

Mack's writing is deeply introspective, telling the story almost completely through the inner voice of the deaf protagonist. He eschews traditional word balloons for handwritten notes integrated into the artwork, which really captures the interiority of the experience. His introspection on art and storytelling reveals a profound love of comics as an art form and a mode of human expression. He’s composing an aria, where Quesada was penning pop songs; he’s painting the Sistine Chapel, where Maaleev is drawing Andy Warhol’s soup cans; Mack is writing Mrs. Dalloway to Bendis’ Wizard of Oz. It’s all good, but Mack is aspiring to elevate the comic book to a high art in every dimension.

And he does it all while telling a personal story, with genuine characters that come to life. There’s more characterization in one half of one issue of Mack’s Echo than in three-dozen issues of most comic book runs.

His prior work on Kabuki was deeply intimate with the culture and history of ethnic minority Ainu people in Japan, and as I understand it was well researched and authentic; I suspect his treatment of Native American culture and history in this story has the same level of diligence and accuracy. When he writes about the Native American Sign Language, I believe he’s teaching us accurate history.

There are other ways to write great comics. Warhol and Rothko belong in the same museums as Picasso and Rembrandt. The Lord of the Rings and Dune are as great as Ulysses in their own way, and unlike the latter which I’ll never read again, I’ve read them more than once and will read them several times more. And I’m going to listen to Sia on Spotify 99 times for every one time I put La Traviata in the CD player.

But there’s no doubt in my mind that Mack’s work here sits up among some of the best comics ever. This is great stuff.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 01 Dec 2021, 21:03

They did have a LARPer in a cool classic Hawkeye costume but cut him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMIUgxvPH5o

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 01 Dec 2021, 21:28

I felt some type of way (as the kids say) about the Warhol reference in the wake of Virgil’s death but it was very on-brand for you NuD lol
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by sambadaemon » 01 Dec 2021, 22:09

I really liked the moment on the train where they showed how much the two of them think alike.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 01 Dec 2021, 23:34

sambadaemon wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 22:09
I really liked the moment on the train where they showed how much the two of them think alike.

They have such great chemistry…
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 02 Dec 2021, 00:44

Blackcyclops wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 23:34
sambadaemon wrote:
01 Dec 2021, 22:09
I really liked the moment on the train where they showed how much the two of them think alike.

They have such great chemistry…
I agree.

So far, this is shaping up to be the most personable of the D+ series. At this point in WandaVision, the novelty of the sitcom gimmick was wearing off and I was feeling ready for the mystery to get some forward momentum. By the end of Ep. 3 of Cap & WS I was kind of bored with the toneles villains. Loki certainly had my interest at the end of the third episode, but it was all about the high concept and very little about the story or characters.

But here we’re going into the fourth episode and I can’t wait. I’m invested in the characters and the story. It’s the most conventional superhero show of the lot, and yet it’s the one I’m most likely to want to re-watch. It’s because Clint and Kate are super fun together.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by P-90 » 02 Dec 2021, 10:47

Excellent episode in a (so far) great show. I agree with Nu-D, out of all the MCU TV shows this is the one I'd be happy to watch again.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 02 Dec 2021, 11:46

For comparison, here’s what we had to say after ep. 3 of Loki:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10111&hilit=Loki&start=75

Ep. 3 of Cap&WS:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10080&start=110

Ep. 3 of WandaVision:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9982&start=67

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by XtremeOne1 » 02 Dec 2021, 18:48

Another great episode. Kate is a great character and I can't wait to see her elsewhere.

I've always been indifferent to Hawkeye but this episode he finally won me over. The scene with him, trying to talk to his son when he couldn't hear was heartbreaking and Jeremy Renner did an excellent job.

Echo was badass. Can't believe this is the actress' first role! Really impressive.

That is 100% King Pin but is he played by Vincent D'onofrio? It sure sounds like him.

I agree with Kate, Kazi is hot.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Milkshake08 » 02 Dec 2021, 19:19

Best episode so far. Echo is great, I loved the actress (and the child actress! she was adorable and made you fall for the character immediately) and I like the prosthesis and I absolutely love the way she communicated with Clint. It's refreshing to see the MCU embrace a lot more diversity, and disabled people, especially deaf individuals, have been railing against Hawkeye in the MCU for years, so it's cool that they took that criticism and made it work in an actual story where it didn't feel like an afterthought or a silly forced moment like the all female part of Endgame (which I admittedly still liked).

I know some of you had reservations about Steinfeld, but I feel like she's such a perfect fit. Her delivery is exactly how I read Kate, who is one of the few non-X-characters I have an affinity for. Can't wait for next week!

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 02 Dec 2021, 20:00

All this series does is reinforce my belief that MCU series should be small scale…

Moon Knight, Luke Cage, Prowler, Elektra, etc should all get small scale series like this…
So on one hand we have the existence of a being who can reset the entire timeline, destroying everything…, and on the other hand we have a few mind wipes and some gaslighting. You're right, totally evenly weighted.
-Cly

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