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Hawkeye

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EphemeristX » 13 Sep 2021, 23:48

Cable wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 20:32
Ms Marvel was scheduled to come out this year but there is no way it is going to. We would have seen trailers if it was coming before Hawkeye.
Unless Disney does something with the release schedule like having two episodes in one week or starting Ms. Marvel while Hawkeye is still running, it can't be. Six episodes run weekly from November 24th will finish up December 29th.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 14 Sep 2021, 02:01

I watched it again and now I worry that because fans are nerds (myself included) this series will be judged much more harshly because it isn’t a “figure out the mystery box” type of series like Loki and WandaVision…so I kinda wish it did come out alongside something else to show balance.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by tokenBG1009 » 14 Sep 2021, 02:53

The trailer gave me feelings of the Fraction/Aja run personally. Clint feels far less hypercompetant in this. He's not full on Hawkguy, but he's nowhere near Ultimate Hawkeye either.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 14 Sep 2021, 04:40

Blackcyclops wrote:
14 Sep 2021, 02:01
I watched it again and now I worry that because fans are nerds (myself included) this series will be judged much more harshly because it isn’t a “figure out the mystery box” type of series like Loki and WandaVision…so I kinda wish it did come out alongside something else to show balance.
This will definitely be the most grounded MCU show to date, and I think Clint and Kate need it. Hawkeye is by far the least developed of the OG MCU Avengers, and we've never really got into his head space much, his time as Ronin was super short and Nat's death whilst one of his most notable moments was really (correctly) about her.

I want less mystery and more tell me who Clint Barton really is, as he still feels like a bit player rather than a main eventer, which does his character a massive disservice.

Whilst Kate is a brand new character (for the MCU) who didn't have an obvious connection to Clint until the Fraction run, so there's a bit to build on their relationship too.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 23 Sep 2021, 02:50

Just saw this trailer. It looks great. I’ll have to work hard to not get my hopes up.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Nov 2021, 09:54

Alright, first two episodes have aired. What did everyone think? This felt like a Netflix show, though definitely more light-hearted and Marvel formulaic than those. The cast is pretty great, especially Steinfeld and Farmiga (who I love in everything she does, even when I don't like the actual movie). So far, we've got both Hawkeyes, Lucky (still Pizza Dog at this point), Swordsman, a namedropped Moira Brandon, and Echo. It seems like a pretty easy read that Eleanor Bishop will be the real villain of the series and Jack is the moustache-twirling red herring, though he may also be a secondary villain or Eleanor's main henchman. And wow, Linda Cardinelli actually gets some screentime.

Anyway, I enjoyed it. It's a bit slow, but we'll see where it lands in the heirarchy of D+ (Wandavision is tops for me still, followed by F+WS, then Loki).
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 24 Nov 2021, 13:08

EphemeristX wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 09:54
Alright, first two episodes have aired. What did everyone think? This felt like a Netflix show, though definitely more light-hearted and Marvel formulaic than those. The cast is pretty great, especially Steinfeld and Farmiga (who I love in everything she does, even when I don't like the actual movie). So far, we've got both Hawkeyes, Lucky (still Pizza Dog at this point), Swordsman, a namedropped Moira Brandon, and Echo. It seems like a pretty easy read that Eleanor Bishop will be the real villain of the series and Jack is the moustache-twirling red herring, though he may also be a secondary villain or Eleanor's main henchman. And wow, Linda Cardinelli actually gets some screentime.

Anyway, I enjoyed it. It's a bit slow, but we'll see where it lands in the heirarchy of D+ (Wandavision is tops for me still, followed by F+WS, then Loki).
So far, so good. I think the comparison to the Netflix shows is apt. Too bad this isn’t on Netflix. They would not have flinched when Lucky was about to get hit by a car. That scene sets the whole tone for the Fraction-Aja run. The dog is it symbol for Clint, who’s always beat to shit and for whom everything always goes wrong, and yet he keeps dragging himself out there. But this is Disney; They wouldn’t dare have a dog get hit by a car, even if the dog lives.

I’m not sure I’d call that “screen time” for Cardellini, but at least it establishes that she’s Clint’s confidant and savvy to the details of his work. And what’s up with those awful bangs? I get that she’s normal middle America, and shouldn’t look like she has a $400 coif, but it doesn’t need to look like a poorly fitted wig either.

Also glad to see Clint’s hearing aids make their debut. Seems like the flashback sequence suggested it’s a work-related injury.

I missed Echo. Was that her at the LARP?
Last edited by Nu-D on 24 Nov 2021, 14:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by sambadaemon » 24 Nov 2021, 14:27

So Kate's friend is named
Spoiler: show
Greer
, huh? That's interesting.

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 24 Nov 2021, 14:30

sambadaemon wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 14:27
So Kate's friend is named
Spoiler: show
Greer
, huh? That's interesting.
Yep. I expect that’s a set up for season 2.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Nov 2021, 14:50

I think I’m in the mental state to see a dog get hit by car in 2021 lol…after everything else, I needed that little piece of relief
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Nov 2021, 15:47

Nu-D wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 13:08
I missed Echo. Was that her at the LARP?
She was the one at the end of the second episode feeling the sub woofer.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 24 Nov 2021, 16:20

Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 14:50
I think I’m in the mental state to see a dog get hit by car in 2021 lol…after everything else, I needed that little piece of relief
They didn’t need to show it on screen. But you hear the crash, Hawkeye jumps into the street, grabs the sack of potatoes made up to look like a dog, and runs to the emergency vet. Hawkeye Sr. sees the fight on TV, sees her run off with the injured dog, and goes to the vet closest to the fight scene to find her. He arrives just in time to hear the vet come out and says the dog will be fine. The tracksuit mafia figure it out a little later, and find a clue at the vet that Kate was Ronin.

You end up in the same place, but it’s more true to the comic and establishes the dog’s life as a metaphor for Clint’s life.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Nov 2021, 16:56

This show is on a much shorter timescale than the comics. There's no way Lucky could be hit and then recover in time to be part of the plot for a show that takes place over less than a week.

Also, I don't think MCU Clint is in the same place comic Clint was during the book.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 24 Nov 2021, 18:16

EphemeristX wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 16:56
This show is on a much shorter timescale than the comics. There's no way Lucky could be hit and then recover in time to be part of the plot for a show that takes place over less than a week.

Also, I don't think MCU Clint is in the same place comic Clint was during the book.
No, not the same place, but a similar one. In the comic he’s a put-upon hero, living the bachelor life, constantly being dragged into petty capers when what he really wants is to be left alone, hang out at rooftop BBQs, and just be on call for the next real superhero gig (i.e. an Avengers mission).

In the MCU he’s a retired hero, mourning his loss, living the family life, being dragged into a petty caper when what he really wants is to be left alone to be with his loved ones, to celebrate Christmas, and not have his normal life disrupted by all the hassle.

What’s the same is that these street level capers are an obstacle to Clint living the normal life he wants to live, and that they drag him in and he keeps getting beat down. He can’t give them up, because he’s a hero, but he is really sick and tired of getting punched in the ribs. Can’t a guy get some down time? But in his heart he’s a hero, so he wipes the pizza off his face and onto his sleeve, picks up the bow, and does what heroes do.

Lucky is a metaphor for Clint. He can’t resist being a dog and doing his dog thing. What he really wants is belly scratches and pizza. But he’s loyal and dutiful to a fault, and thus his fate is to get sucked in to all Clint’s drama and it gets him beat up. He doesn’t complain—well, maybe a little—but he sticks with it because that’s his doggie Tao.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by das_boot » 24 Nov 2021, 19:51

So I liked… Clint.

That’s kind of it. The action scenes have been pretty great, and the cast are pretty decent too…

Except the actor playing Kate. I don’t know whether it’s just because I don’t like the actor or whether it’s just that she doesn’t feel at all like Kate Bishop, but I’m not keen.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by P-90 » 25 Nov 2021, 00:06

Liked it, if it continues without any major misstep it could easily become my favourite Marvel show.
Spoiler: show
I assume Echo isn't a genuine villain and is somehow undercover as she was as Ronin in the comics
Oh and yes I have been getting the name 'Duquesne' wrong in the head every time I've read it since the early 90's :roll:
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Nu-D » 25 Nov 2021, 01:16

P-90 wrote:
25 Nov 2021, 00:06
Liked it, if it continues without any major misstep it could easily become my favourite Marvel show.
Spoiler: show
I hope Echo isn't a genuine villain and is somehow undercover as she was as Ronin in the comics
I presume, as in the comics, she’s working for her foster father Kingpin, but doesn’t realize he’s evil.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by tokenBG1009 » 25 Nov 2021, 05:27

das_boot wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 19:51
So I liked… Clint.

That’s kind of it. The action scenes have been pretty great, and the cast are pretty decent too…

Except the actor playing Kate. I don’t know whether it’s just because I don’t like the actor or whether it’s just that she doesn’t feel at all like Kate Bishop, but I’m not keen.
I have very little experience with Kate in the comics, but I always figured she'd be far more put together than she is here. It feels like they reversed the comic roles of Kate and Clint so that Clint is the more put together one while Kate is the one barely holding ti together. I'm not sold on her two episodes in. She's very much acting like a typical teenager in a movie trying to find anything about their future step dad to prove his a diabolical villain.

Track suit mafia were fine though.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EphemeristX » 25 Nov 2021, 06:52

By the time Kate and Clint had their book together, Kate had been a Young Avenger for years and even led the team. This Kate is basically on her first superhero outing. They're definitely different.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by das_boot » 25 Nov 2021, 07:38

Except that even in her very first appearances, Kate was far more self-assured and capable than this slapstick rendition
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Nov 2021, 08:05

So I'm probably one of the few people who didn't catch the Fraction / Aja series that this references (the art of this book I've seen hasn't been to my taste), but knowing the Hawkeyes from the Avengers books primarily, it finally captures some of the humour and crankyness of Clint. As an everyman who's served with Gods, super soldiers and gamma mutants, there's a humanity to him that's not really had time to build. There's also a slight world-weariness to him too. This is the first time it's felt like MCU Clint captures some of the comics vibe. He was also fairly anti-authority for large chunks, clashing with Steve a lot (maybe that's why he hates Rogers the musical?) so the snark is something that appeals.

I'll disagree on Kate not looking capable, she's already an excellent archer and martial artist, she knew when she was being played by Jack in the fencing. What she looks like at the moment is overconfidence and pragmatism (how do those "technical" skills of archery, fencing, martial arts etc translate to real life combat and threats) and definite hero worship of Barton. Maybe there's a bit of slapstick there, particularly in the latter bit, but from memory Clint wasn't around during Kate's debut issues, and they didn't meet until Kate was pretty much established as a YA.

The tracksuit mafia guys were hilarious, and Pizza Dog is too cute.

Also Ant-Man WAS at the Battle of NY thanks to the Time Heist. Keep up Clint!

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Nov 2021, 12:20

There’s two sides to Kate actually…
In her original YA appearances she was actually more of the the too perfect counterpart to everyone else on the team (almost like their Batman, she had no real connection to the superhero world yet she, kinda like early Hawkeye, was just too good).

Later on, particularly in her series she got more complexity to her character, she went from what it felt like how an adult would write a hyper-competent young adult to feeling like how a real young adult young would write her. More broken sunglasses, awkward Kisses and such…that’s the when I really came to love the character. Before hand I definitely was more into Stature and everyone else in the original YA.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by das_boot » 25 Nov 2021, 14:23

Maybe it’s just that I really don’t like the actor anyway, so she was always going to feel a bit flat to me.

I dunno. There’s aspects of this that I agree with you all on, in that elements of my dislike are perhaps a little unwarranted or that I’ve neglected aspects of the characterisation.

The biggest flaw for me? Why are we setting up EVERY teen hero as a fanboy/girl? Spider-Man kind of makes sense and it comes across as very earnest and affable. When it’s Kamala it also makes sense because in a way? She’s the millennial Spider-Man. From Kate? Sigh.

SO. I get that we weren’t necessarily going to get the full GRIMDARK origin from the comics. I get that. It’s Disney. But the point of Kate’s skill development was that it wasn’t from a place of hero worship, but from a place of never wanting to feel like a victim again. It feels to me like the character’s lost something (albeit in exchanging the trope of surviving SA to surviving the death of a parent— which 616 Kate also has, however), and I just… I dunno. I get that changes happen. But I dunno. I just don’t really vibe with this Kate.
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Re: Hawkeye

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Nov 2021, 14:59

I think Kate's hero-worship / fan-boyish nature of Clint is VERY different to Kamala's, and MILES away from Pete's.

There is no question Kate is VERY capable. The opening bell tower shots showed it, plus her martial arts prowess etc. She's very well taught from a formal perspective - Kamala's very different, she's much more self-taught and discovering what to her our new powers. There's a confidence in Kate there that is very different from Peter too.

She's bold as brass with the way she speaks to Clint - yes, she has massive amounts of respect of him, but there's an inner confidence to her too, which reflects how self-assured she was in the original YA run. Pete is anything but self-assured - super respectful, and earnest like you said, but wouldn't be as bold as Kate's already shown to be.

It's early days, but I'm liking the show and this version of Kate.

Interesting that she's actually a fair bit older than Peter is too in MCU continuity! Spider-Man was already established, what ten years or so before the YA's debut?

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Re: Hawkeye

Post by EphemeristX » 25 Nov 2021, 15:18

das_boot wrote:
25 Nov 2021, 14:23
SO. I get that we weren’t necessarily going to get the full GRIMDARK origin from the comics. I get that. It’s Disney. But the point of Kate’s skill development was that it wasn’t from a place of hero worship, but from a place of never wanting to feel like a victim again. It feels to me like the character’s lost something (albeit in exchanging the trope of surviving SA to surviving the death of a parent— which 616 Kate also has, however), and I just… I dunno. I get that changes happen. But I dunno. I just don’t really vibe with this Kate.
I'm glad they're skipping the SA thing. I don't want it. You don't need that to have the desire to not be a victim.
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