Blackcyclops wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 20:58Let’s be clear: Iron man was a lesser known character prior to 2008 and they had no issue making a film about him.P-90 wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 20:12I honestly don't believe it's as 'black and white' as that (pun sort of intended), most white male characters in the comics are also not A-list, only a small handful of character, most of whom first appeared during the renaissance in the 60's (with a few notable exceptions such as Wolverine) became icons of the industry and when even movies based on them either bomb at the box office or are not received warmly by fans (Daredevil, the recent Fantastic Four etc.) then I completely understand movie companies not wanting to risk losing money on lesser known characters.Blackcyclops wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 18:52
I mean that’s kind of a good explanation and kind of not.
On one hand, it’s true that it took until GotG’s success for Disney to really see that they can use obscure characters and as long as the story is good, people will go see it. And unfortunately given the racist and sexist history (and present) of comics, most of the non-white male heroes aren’t A-listers.
But on the other hand, 10 years tho? Like they felt like white Americans would be okay with a talking raccoon but not a superpower Black man? Lol I mean prior to 2008, Thor wasn’t that well known either (he never had a major cartoon in the last two decades), so they could have easily had Black Panther or Shang Chi or any number of other characters be their headliners at that time.
The fact is that it was irrelevant what comic book fans liked or knew because these films were made to appeal to a much larger audience, so it doesn’t really matter about their history. And it’s a history that only someone who was straight up lying to themselves can’t see was much more racist, sexist and alot of things when compared to today. I mean no person is going to say 1962 socially is the same as today (first of all a Black man couldnt even legally marry a white woman in parts of the country lol). So it doesn’t matter who was created in the Silver Age (or Golden age) because the studios could have chosen any number of characters to create their franchise around. They themselves chose Iron Man, again outside of comics was not well know (same for Thor who didn’t even have a 90s cartoon as I said above). We’ll get to the argument about risk below.
If we’re talking about “conspiracy” like the Illuminati, then of course not. And it’s not as nefarious or over the top as you’re making it in an attempt to discredit my argument. But if we’re talking about groups of people plotting something then sure movie execs make decisions like that. Like you said, they would do what they think will succeed. And even though they keep getting “surprised” (Hollywood has a history of forgetting that Black people will support stuff about them and then be all “surprised” at the success of the films- see Get Out, Best Man holiday, Girls Trip, etc), execs do (or did) believe that minority led films would not be successful to larger white audiences and global ones. This isn’t some left-wing conspiracy, this is straight up things they’ve said before...feel free to google it.I genuinely don't believe there is a culture of 'isms' in the comic book industry (not more than was the acceptable societal 'norm' in the past and definitely not today), nor do I believe that movie companies (who's first priority above all else is to make money) would put the kibosh on movies featuring black or female heroes if they truly believed they would be a success, they're too ruthless to make such decisions. Again I don't believe there's some conspiracy to keep black or female heroes out of movies just that the most well known icons the industry, those characters with literally generations of fans just happen to be predominantly straight white males.
And don’t say “just happen” as though it was something that arose naturally or by chance. It happened because of industry choices and practices that favored some groups of people over others. It was caused by discriminatory factors that disrupted actual free market forces (if execs were true free market folks they would have been capitalized on appealing to broader audiences). You can definitely argue it isn’t as true today but in the 1960s? Cmon now...
As for Thor, he's one of the most beloved and important members of the Avengers so if you're planning a franchise based on that team then it's a no-brainer to introduce him to the public at large (alongside Cap, Iron Man and Hulk)
But this isn’t the comics, this is a new film universe that could have been structured any way they chose. Last time I checked: Black widow wasn’t a founding Avenger but look at the films. Or conversely, why wasn’t Wasp in the film since comics matter so much? Lol...the fact that someone’s mind could grasp adding another white dude to the OG MCU Avengers lineup (Hawkeye) but not a Black dude (because it’s not “canon”) should kinda say something lol
And Thor was a non-factor to non-comic fans before the films (unless of course you remember the 80s classic: Adventures in babysitting)...so why is it less of a risk to make a film on him so early on than Black Panther or hell Rage or Night thrasher lol? I mean we saw that markets were cool with bad-ass Black dudes with attitudes lol
The part you’re referring to was clearly a joke and was actually aimed poking fun at execs and what they think people will support. You’re placing some words in my mouth in that regars, I didn’t call anyone racist (or sexist). And I can almost guarantee based on this post that you’re idea of a geniune racist is prolly someone with a noose in their hand and spouting out super-harsh racist rhetoric on Gab while drawing Nazi iconography on a poster or something extreme like that..so we’ll agree to disagree on that one point, especially since it’s irrelevant to the conversation or the points I made. I just wanted to make sure my joke was clear.Not being American I can't speak for them but I don't believe they, or white people in general are as racist as you seem to believe, I've been an avid Marvel reader for well over twenty years and not once in all that time have I ever met anyone who was a fan or the comics/cartoons/movies that was a genuine racist.
1) I didn't say Iron Man was well known outside of the comic book or the cartoons just that if you're planning a movie franchise based on the Avengers then Iron Man is one of the most popular characters from that team and definitely one of the handful of characters that ha to be featured.
2) Discredit you? yeah no there's also no conspiracy against you (and I addressed my comment in an above post, it was sarcasm)
3) Movie execs may have stated that 'black' led projects wouldn't be successful to larger white audiences but that in of itself is not a prejudice and therefore 'racist' that's most likely will be backed up by numbers, whether it's 'morally right' or not making a movie about a specific group with a specific audience in mind will obviously be less well received by all others. That is true of all movie industries, they tailor there films to best suit there primary audience (usually the predominant group). Western based entertainment media (including Hollywood in the US) is based in nations that are predominantly white, of course there are going to be far more white people and white characters in our media, that's not in any way racist that's just the reality of the nations we live in. Also western media is by far the most diverse on the planet, no other industry even comes close, every other entertainment industry around the world caters almost solely to one racial group which is completely understandable given they are the majority in those nations. I really get angered by the fallacy that there is a some kind of inherent racism in western media.
4) Yeah again I in no way said the world wasn't more acceptably racist in the sixties, in every generation there are things that are deemed acceptable that aren't later, even as little as fifteen years ago some things that were acceptable aren't now.
5) The Avengers movie is based on the comics and Thor is one of the teams most popular characters (as are Cap, Iron Man and Hulk) and while of course they 'could' of had a black character I will never believe there was any racism behind the choice not to, that is frankly a laughable idea to me, if one day there's a memo leaked that proves me wrong then on that day I'll change my but until then, yeah nah! Why not Rage or any other black character? well why not all the other heroes that never made the cut, why not Hercules, Moon Knight, Wonder Man etc. why not work out a deal with FOX earlier and feature Spider-Man or Wolverine. There were many popular heroes who didn't get picked that us fans would love to see in live action.
6) Yeah don't assume you know what my view of a genuine racist is, I understand perfectly. I understand you may have had first hand experience with prejudice in the form of racism and I genuinely feel sorry for you if you have, I hate all discrimination (even 'positive' discrimination) but as I've stated before and above those people are not the 'norm' they are a minority that in no way represent the vast majority and the idea that they do is no more true or acceptable than the views they espouse.
For every racist white comic book fan you encounter remember there are literally millions out there who aren't. We've all suffered prejudice and discrimination in some form, it may not always be based on race or gender but that doesn't make it less wrong.