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"Song of Ice and Fire" Discussions

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JanO
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"Song of Ice and Fire" Discussions

Post by JanO » 25 Oct 2012, 07:23

[QUOTE=sixhoursoflucy] [QUOTE=Savant]Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.[/QUOTE]Nice. Medium, I just re-read A Clash of Kings last summer, so if you do start a thread to discuss it in detail with full spoilers, I would theoretically like to participate. And Jan, your theory about the connection between the Starks of the North and the force that reanimates the dead is interesting. In fact, I wish I had thought of it first. [/QUOTE]

Well, of course you do!
 
I read the whole series last year, so it's all still pretty fresh in my mind. I'd certainly like to participate!

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 01 Nov 2012, 14:05

I've decided that Syrio has died as well as evidenced by Arya hearing his voice while she flees from the Red Keep and not in the way she chanted the mantra to herself previously.

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 04 Jan 2013, 12:14

Sorry to double post -



The Northmen determine they have the right to independence after Robert's death. Determining that their vow of loyalty was to the Dragon Kings and not the Iron Throne itself. This proposition makes a good deal of sense to me. Afterall, the dragon kings have been gone for just short of 20 years and the current regime is responsible for the death of both King Robert and Lord Stark.

Wolfthomas
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Post by Wolfthomas » 05 Jan 2013, 19:05

[QUOTE=medium13] Sorry to double post -



The Northmen determine they have the right to independence after Robert's death. Determining that their vow of loyalty was to the Dragon Kings and not the Iron Throne itself. This proposition makes a good deal of sense to me. Afterall, the dragon kings have been gone for just short of 20 years and the current regime is responsible for the death of both King Robert and Lord Stark. [/QUOTE] Except that after the Robert's Rebellion all the lords presumably swore new oaths to the Baratheon Dynasty. Ned himself considers Stannis the true heir.



It was Lannisters that killed Robert and Ned.



Admittedly Robb Stark was confused. He didn't know about the incest and Ned's giving in to protect his daughters confused it even more. He thinks that his Rebellion is righteous against Joffrey in the same way Ned/Jon/Robert's was. That the social contract has been broken between the Iron Throne and the North.



Declaring himself as King in the North however gained him absolutely nothing.Wolfthomas2013-01-05 19:06:54

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 07 Jan 2013, 10:10

You presume a little too far -as the evidence in the book indicates that the Lords bent the knee to Robert and were welcomed to the King's peace. There is no indication that any region swore loyalty to his dynasty, that did not even exist at the time. In fact, since the current regime is composed of Lannisters and no true Baratheon, a dynastic rule ceases to exist at all.



Even if that presumption is true, and the lords swore an oath to his heirs. Joffrey is not the heir. But, Stannis isn't necessarily the heir either, as in life Robert seemed to disinherit Stannis from his family holdings.



Robb may be confused as to the facts, but his declaration of independence still has support.

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sixhoursoflucy
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Post by sixhoursoflucy » 29 Jan 2013, 12:18

Someone posted this Taylor Swift-inspired GoT meme on Reddit with the headline "This made me laugh and cry a lil." Maybe it was the wine in my system, but I did get a little misty eyed when I looked at it: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma48zd6M141qcaz8oo1_500.png

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XtremeOne1
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Post by XtremeOne1 » 29 Jan 2013, 12:20

That was horrible :'(

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 30 Jan 2013, 13:28

I'm closing in on finishing my re read of "A Storm of Swords".  I hadn't taken the time to enjoy this book as much in the first reading. I think it's truly one of my favorites now, except that "A Game of Thrones" is the best, in my opinion.
 
I'm sad more isn't made of the Red Viper. He's a really interesting character and lends a good deal of historical perspective. I can't help but think that the Martell's get the shaft and the Lannisters (despite obstacles) manage to get out of many, many challenging situations.  It makes me look forward to the Sand Snakes joining the game.
 
I fluxuate much in my feelings for Jon this book. He is more engaging than I originally thought, and I felt for him when he lost  Yigrette and felt for him when the prospect of becoming the Lord of Winterfell was offered by Stannis.  I struggle with chapters with Sam, though. I don't dislike him but he's a hard voice to identify with since he's so self deprecating.
 
My rereading also reaffirms my belief that Sansa will be a big player in how this story concludes. I'm not sure if Martin wants up to be supporters of her marriage to Tyrion or not. There is this constant undertone that Tyrion loves her although, while she recognizes his kindness (although she refuses to admit it) I don't thinks he has romantic feelings towards him at all.  I'm a little disappointed in Tyrion when he tells Jaime he is responsible for the crime whe he isn't.
 
Finally, the Tyrells are intriguing. Lannisters with flowers. It might be fun to get to know all the houses in greater detail.

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 04 Feb 2013, 18:40

In book 2, I just found out Green Arrow & Blue Beetle are Lord Tywin's bannermen!

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XtremeOne1
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Post by XtremeOne1 » 04 Feb 2013, 21:53

huh?

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 05 Feb 2013, 01:42

Arya sees them as they ride out of Harrenhal.

Wolfthomas
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Post by Wolfthomas » 07 Feb 2013, 18:53

[QUOTE=medium13] You presume a little too far -as the evidence in the book indicates that the Lords bent the knee to Robert and were welcomed to the King's peace. There is no indication that any region swore loyalty to his dynasty, that did not even exist at the time. In fact, since the current regime is composed of Lannisters and no true Baratheon, a dynastic rule ceases to exist at all.



Even if that presumption is true, and the lords swore an oath to his heirs. Joffrey is not the heir. But, Stannis isn't necessarily the heir either, as in life Robert seemed to disinherit Stannis from his family holdings.



Robb may be confused as to the facts, but his declaration of independence still has support. [/QUOTE]Bending the knee/dipping the banners as Ned recounts is all part of the process of swearing loyalty to Robert Baratheon. There's no way he'd be King for 17 odd years without oaths of fealty.



Stannis is a true baratheon. The Throne goes to him in light of the incest. Ned Stark himself is adamant about this. Stannis was never disinherited, he was granted the Lordship of Dragonstone which he personally considered a slight, but it was the seat of Targaryan heirs for years and required a strong man to keep the peace after the rebellion, as Maester Cressen suggests. GRRM himself has said that Robert didn't have to give either brother anything, that doing so was generosity albeit careless.



Yes Robb has support. Just like Renly had support and Joffrey had support. But from a legal point of view, he broke his oaths to his King Stannis Baratheon.



But as I said, he didn't know of the incest when declaring himself. He thought Joffrey was the true king and Stannis and Renly pretenders. He thought that his oaths, bonds, responsibilities to the throne had been voided by Joffrey.



And declaring himself King was stupid. It gained him nothing. He already had the support of the North and Riverlands. They were already loyal and incited to war. It created a barrier between him and any potential alliance with Stannis and Renly, nor any reconciliation with Joffrey. As despicable as that sounds, Winter is coming and hard decisions need to made to protect the whole North.

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 08 Feb 2013, 02:42

The cover of the edition of Storm of Swords I'm reading has a helmet on the cover instead of crossed swords. The next book has a goblet instead of crows eating corpses. How hard is it to get literal covers right?

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 28 Feb 2013, 11:58

I finished my reread of Feast for Crows th is morning on the subway. It made me love House Martell even more. Let me know your thoughts.

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 28 Feb 2013, 23:46

I'm almost halfway through A Feast for Crows right now. After the supreme awesomeness of A Storm of Swords, it kind of sucks.

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 03 Mar 2013, 17:54

I'm glad I reread Storm of Swords. I think I rushed through the first time because I knew in advance it had a number of notable events. While it is gloomy, moody, and exciting, it also managed to depress me again. It is superior to Feast for Crows, but for whatever reason I enjoy the fourth installment a great deal. I'm taking a small break before rereading Dances with Dragons - which I found to be hard work to get through.

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 04 Mar 2013, 01:59

I finished A Feast For Crows & I hated it.

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XtremeOne1
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Post by XtremeOne1 » 04 Mar 2013, 09:55

Feast was a mess, focusing on characters hardly anyone cared about and neither really progressing the plot. Brienne's plot was basically a slapstick comedy of a group of misfits searching for a girl we all knew they were no where near. Ceresei went from cool and caculating to raging psycho who decided to start experiment with ladies(that's two of our main female characters who did this so far BTW)....I like the Martells but I hated every chapter of the Greyjoys. 

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sixhoursoflucy
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Post by sixhoursoflucy » 04 Mar 2013, 12:12

While I concede that most of the criticisms leveled against A Feast for Crows are valid, I still enjoyed it, mostly because Cersei and Jaime are two of my favorite characters and I liked a whole book devoted to getting inside their heads. Cersei's chapters had a particularly Poe-vibe to them, since it was difficult to discern whether her suspicions about Margaery were accurate or if she was just a drunken loon. I like Brienne a lot, too—there hasn't been a character with her unwavering nobility since Ned—but I'm hoping Martin somehow salvages that plotline in future books. Otherwise, it just feels like a waste.

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 04 Mar 2013, 12:46

Surpised and disapointed FFC isn't more enjoyed on the forum. I wouldn't say that nobody cared about many of the viewpoint characters in this book. Besides Jaime, Sansa, Arya, and Cersei who have been around the entire time, I found Brienne, Adrianna, Asha, and even Victarion of interest.  I struggle with Samwell chapters but suspect I would have enjoyed them more with an increased focus on Maester Aemon.  I think there is more to come from Brienne, especially given the mystery of the word she screamed. Pod and Ser Hyle may not be as fortunate. Her storyline didn't give us much - except for exploring that she is conflicted about her roles as both a woman and a warrior and her compunctions about killing. She also exposed that Lady Stoneheart is using children which I found interesting and of note in the future.  And to be completely in the minority, although I despise the Greyjoys, I think they may be suited to helping recover Dany from across the narrow sea.

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XtremeOne1
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Post by XtremeOne1 » 04 Mar 2013, 12:53

Ergh I hated Samwell's chapters SOOO much. Almost as much as the Greyjoy's. Basically it can be summed up to "Samwell thinks he isn't worthy. Samwell is scared. Samwell pisses himself. Samwell isn't worthy. Samwell pisses himself. Samwell has sex. Samwell isn't worthy." I was just like



"STFU you whiny bastard."...I think I'll enjoy the shows version of this story more, since the actor seems to play the pity in a much more humorous way.



Brienne's cliffhanger is what's wrong with the books right now. It's been 10 years! We got some information in DwD but just the tiniest of bits. I LOVE Brienne as a character, I just hated her hapless journey.

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 04 Mar 2013, 17:25

Actually, the Greyjoys were the only plotline I liked unreservedly.

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sixhoursoflucy
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Post by sixhoursoflucy » 04 Mar 2013, 17:39

Asha is dope. 

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EvilMonkeyPope
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Post by EvilMonkeyPope » 05 Mar 2013, 02:12

It is known!Catelyn Stark is an even bigger monster than Cersei, though. Catelyn is officially my most hated character now.Whenever I read the name "Arstan Whitebeard" I kept thinking "Artisanal Whitebread."http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUKDZFiy-A 
EvilMonkeyPope2013-03-05 04:54:43

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medium13
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Post by medium13 » 05 Mar 2013, 12:36

I think that's going too far. Cateyln gets a bad rap. Worse than Cersei?!?

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