Re: Random Thoughts

[Spectral Knight]

I don't know the actor. I've never watched Sex Education - my missus liked it, but having caught all of about five minutes of it, I was distinctly unimpressed. Probably not the target audience, tbh.

Doctor Who's certainly played with camp in terms of tones, but I'd also say there's an element of foppishness or dandyism.

Personally, I'm more of a fan of Doctor Who when it takes itself more seriously (despite it being clearly ridiculous) and the camp comes from it taking wobbly sets and rubber costumes seriously and a threat to the Earth/the universe, when it explicitly plays up the campy nature it kind of removes you from the story.

[das_boot]

I mean… okay so.

Yes. Fully agree. DW was usually played pretty seriously in the original run/s when the scenery and props were probably just whatever the design team saved from the bin from whatever Blue Peter had made in terms of crafty things that week. That’s where the camp kind of lay in the original. I fully accept your point there and I think you’re right.

That could NOT fly in the modern relaunch. It would immediately cause an audience to lose any suspension of disbelief. Compare it to a KIND OF analogue with Star Trek. The OG series was still totally shot on the cheap in terms of scenery and props etc, just like DW, but that isn’t the case now. I get that even now the special effects are more on the cheap side than we’d see in a similar show made in the states, but ultimately it could NOT have been an era of dirt cheap sets clearly made from washing up liquid bottles, egg cartons and as much metallic spray paint as they could get. Certain things have to change to make sure that it’s relevant and captures an audience, and those have to be the special effects, scenery and (mostly) props. But to retain the charm of the original series there still *needs* to be that camp factor, which… if you can’t get away with that in terms of the actors trying to deliver high stakes drama and risk when faced with terrible props etc, it kind of HAS to come from the acting and tone. It’s what Davies delivered well but Chibnall has NOT— he could never strike the balance quite well, nor juggle the cast he assembled (which, although Dr Whittaker has more actual companions, if you look at the characters that surrounded the doctor in the Davies run, there were FAR more secondary and tertiary characters that the audience cared about comparative to his run but I digress).

TLDR; the actors and writing have to be more camp to capture what’s lost by the necessity of more expensive and up to date special effects etc.

[Spectral Knight]

I guess where I'm coming from is that original run became camp because of the way they tried to honestly compensate for the shortcomings of budget + technology by over-egging the drama. But the drama + stories was where the appeal was (for me) and I don't see a need for deliberately introduced camp sensibilities.*
I don't want a return to Fairy liquid bottle ships and crap effects (and to be honest, in the relaunch, it's often where CGI has been spent badly have we seen the most ridiculous villain concepts, like the Slitheen, the Abzorbaloff, the Adipose, etc.)

*this isn't to say it should avoid LGB characters though...!

[Blackcyclops]

For me personally my favorite modern Doctors are those who play a serious role infused not just with camp (which re-reading my post I meant to use another word) but a flamboyance (this is the word I meant to use) and eccentricity. That flamboyance and sass ( 10, and 11 were at various points sassy ass men…sassy is very different than “mean” it’s a kind of playful caustic-ish thing…what modern American Black gays call “shady”) is what helps to undercut the self-seriousness of the entire production. Because modern scifi on TV is basically set on “super-serious and macho” (see The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica reboot, Lost, etc) with the exception of the superhero shows (which alot of times end up with more viewers than the other shows…and a much more diverse grouping of fans), Doctor Who at it’s best stands apart with the blend of seriousness and ridiculousness.

That balance is key and it’s why 12 and 13 never hit it fully with me. I think 12 did serious very very well but the other half never hit for me. And 13’s showrunner never quite knew where to take it. I almost would’ve liked 13 to be more serious but unlike 10 and 11, be more like 9 and undercut the seriousness with melancholy and maybe some more whimsy.

I want 14 to invoke that feeling that 10 and 11 gave me while also adding something new like 10 and 11 did. 11 was very much the “Nutty Professor” type which played off Smith’s age and less Hollywood conventional attractiveness. 10 meanwhile was a tragic hot guy hidden inside of angsty professor.

[das_boot]

@ BC— I think “camp” is one of those words that doesn’t necessarily translate well. Sure, it can be effeminate and flamboyant, but it can also just mean like… not taking itself so seriously? Like pantomimes over here are absolutely camp— but aimed at families so it’s not as though there’s a HUGE emphasis on camp in the gay sense (other than the drag queens)

[Anna Raven]

I tend to use "campy" as a substitute for "corny" or "cheesy". It's probably not the intended nuance of the actual word.

[EphemeristX]

Camp is quite often meant exactly as flamboyant, exaggerated, and theatrical, so your post is fine, BC. Fact is, "Camp" has been redefined so many times that it has no real singular meaning anymore. In alot of its earliest appearances, the term literally means anything (male) gay. Nowadays, it's a little kitschy, a little tacky, a little vulgar, and often still gay. It's basically meant as an affront to current taste and sensibilities.

[Spectral Knight]

@ BC— I think “camp” is one of those words that doesn’t necessarily translate well. Sure, it can be effeminate and flamboyant, but it can also just mean like… not taking itself so seriously? Like pantomimes over here are absolutely camp— but aimed at families so it’s not as though there’s a HUGE emphasis on camp in the gay sense (other than the drag queens)

Even then a pantomime dame is somewhat distinct from a typical drag queen - Les Dawson who did a tonne of work in pantos for example was not at all effeminate or flamboyant. Just ridiculous
(Though more flamboyant drag queens have also done well as panto dames)

I guess in such cases kitsch might work better than camp?

[das_boot]

@ BC— I think “camp” is one of those words that doesn’t necessarily translate well. Sure, it can be effeminate and flamboyant, but it can also just mean like… not taking itself so seriously? Like pantomimes over here are absolutely camp— but aimed at families so it’s not as though there’s a HUGE emphasis on camp in the gay sense (other than the drag queens)

Even then a pantomime dame is somewhat distinct from a typical drag queen - Les Dawson who did a tonne of work in pantos for example was not at all effeminate or flamboyant. Just ridiculous
(Though more flamboyant drag queens have also done well as panto dames)

I guess in such cases kitsch might work better than camp?

If anything, drag panto has become more widespread (especially with the advent of drag race and the UK edition in particular). It’s always struck me as SO strange that we have a really oddly specific culture in the UK that it’s totally okay for kids to see a BLATANT man in a dress and wig and make up in one specific context, but NOT in any other

[Spectral Knight]

Yeah, I mean the performing arts have always had men in dresses and wigs right back to Shakespearen times, when traditionally it'd have been men performing all roles (including the women) anyway.

Flamboyant / effeminate drag has also always done well too, to be fair. Danny La Rue and Christopher Biggins come to mind. And Lily Savage as performed by Paul O'Grady started out was focused on the gay scene long before he (and the character) became household names to a broader audience.

I wonder if there's something in the culture that because it was done for "performance" it was fine, as it was to entertain the masses rather than it being a personal statement..I dunno.

It's weird like you said, but it's not even about panto (or more broadly comedy, where sketch shows had guys in frocks since at least the 60s in Monty Python). I mean, Bowie had a dress on for The Man Who Sold The World cover (which was a couple of years prior to him being more deliberately androgynous in the Ziggy years), and one of my favourite people in all of music, Nicky Wire, used to routinely wear a dress or skirts with long dyed hair and makeup both in his personal life as well as on stage with the Manics.

[BardicOne]

Let's see if I can catch up real quick:

I always used the term "campy" to mean that you know it's cheap and cheesy and are totally embracing it. It's okay to be cheesy because that was your goal, as opposed to "we think this is excellent because we don't know better".

I prefer Sci-Fi that can blend humor and drama. It's why I adore Farscape, they were never far away from a great one-liner even in the middle of drama. "I left a nuclear bomb on an elevator." "Eh, you've done worse."

I never thought much about drag being "acceptable" because I grew up with Bugs Bunny in a dress and later Kids In The Hall and Monty Python and learning how previous centuries had men playing women's roles.

Superman Blue/Red was such an odd era with an odd end with that Millenium Giants story. It just feels like something writers did because they were bored... Well gee guys maybe stop giving him so many books a month and you wouldn't burn through ideas so quick?

[tokenBG1009]

TIL (technically yesterday) that I used to work with one of the writers from Women Write About Comics and she was a guest on the Cerebro podcast. She did an episode on Cannonball and I never even knew I had a major fan across the hall!

[Anna Raven]

TIL (technically yesterday) that I used to work with one of the writers from Women Write About Comics and she was a guest on the Cerebro podcast. She did an episode on Cannonball and I never even knew I had a major fan across the hall!

I had a similar experience. I used to work at a comic shop with a woman, who it turns out her sister was an acclaimed voice actress who would go on to be one of the members of Critical Role. This was well before Critical Role started though, although she was already a pretty big star from various cartoons and video games. I wish I'd known I'd have told both sisters how great D&D was years earlier haha.

[_Rick_]

So I just got a huge fright. I decided to check out the voting of the Eurovision final to see what would happen with the Ukraine situation (it's getting political obviously and apparently some Russian hackers vowed to prevent Ukraine from winning since Russia was banned). I haven't watched any of the songs this year of course, but when I tuned in the UK was first. FIRST. Actual first. Not last. FIRST. I'm pretty sure that's a sign of the end of times.


It's between UK, Ukraine and Sweden right now

edit: Sweden is out. UK or Ukraine now

edit 2: Ok, UK lost. The world is not ending

I wonder if Russia will be allowed to participate next year. Let's face it, trolling Russia has become a staple of Eurovision but it's usually done with rainbow flags or guys kissing. Can't wait to see how Ukraine does it.

[Spectral Knight]

I still remember Katrina and the Waves winning it for the UK. God I'm old.

Given how influential British music is (...or at least was...), that the UK put such complete and utter dross up year after year shows our lack of commitment to this nonsense.

I hadn't even heard Ryder's song until now. Not a bad tune, but I don't get what all that pissed dad dancing was about. Very odd man. Par for the course for Eurovision mind. I mean, I turned it on right in the middle of Norma's track, and that was too much for me and turned it off.

[EphemeristX]

We never hear about Eurovision over here (we're not Europe, obv), but I think every year I'll tune in and by the time I realise it's happening, it's over. OH WELL.

[Spectral Knight]

You're not missing much. It's essentially a bunch of oddballs who are only allowed once a year.

[tokenBG1009]

The only reason I know more about Eurovision than "That thing that trends for a weekend on Twitter" is Alexander Rybak. I listened to "Fairytale" on REPEAT that summer.

[Milkshake08]

Eurovision is really popular among certain subsets in the USA. We kind of love to see how wacky it is. This year has been quite the treat.

[Blackcyclops]

WHY DIDNT YOU BRITISH FOLKS TELL ME DONNA NOBLE IS COMING BACK FOR THE 60th ANNIVERSARY WITH DAVID SEXY HAIR TENNANT?????


Also, new casting news:
https://www.cbr.com/doctor-who-hearsto ... tyler-bbc/

[tokenBG1009]

It's weird that I heard about that before you.

[Spectral Knight]

Fair play, Donna is the best choice of 10's companions to make her return. Her ending was tragic and I'd love to see that rectified with her back in the big blue box. Tennant is always fun, his special with Smith was fantastic and he seemed to really enjoy the return. He also, annoyingly, has barely aged, HOW is in his 50s. Eugh.

But also... 11 and Amy, and 12 and Bill please.

And you can add Clara in this mix too, just because.
I couldn't decide whether she best fit with 11 or 12, and thought what the hell, she fits with EVERY Doctor.

[das_boot]

Donna’s ending BROKE me. It also broke my mother who was watching elsewhere and when she called me after she’d watched the episode absolutely bawling down the phone at me I GENUINELY thought she was calling to tell me that someone in the family had died.

11, Amy and Rory, yes please.

I’m less fussed about 12, Bill and Clara.

[BardicOne]

So it looks like I need to tell my manager that I can't work with my team leader because her and I just can't find a happy middle ground between what I am capable of getting done in a work day and what she expects me to get done. Except my instincts are to trudge along and not make ripples in the pond.

Basically my job is at risk and I'm stuck between "Help yourself vs Don't cause a stir." See I'd consider quitting if I wasn't trying to buy a house sometimes in the next year and mortage applications really prefer you have long-term employment.

[Spectral Knight]

Honestly Bardic, get out of there as soon as you can.

Speaking from prior experience, staying in a toxic work environment where you have dickhead managers / team leaders that are basically making your job untenable doesn't end well.

Trudge along whilst there but try to get something different as soon as possible. Its far easier (and less soul destroying) getting a new job whilst already employed rather than trying to get a job when a toxic environment goes fully tits up and you need cash quick. If you can show on applications you had quick turnarounds between jobs and maintained an income that's generally better than not bring employed at all.