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X-Artists Rushmore

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Anna Raven
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X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Anna Raven » 09 Apr 2018, 20:50

Same as the writers topic but for artists only.

1. Kirby
2. John Byrne
3. Mark Silvestri
4. Dave Cockrum
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Wings » 09 Apr 2018, 21:13

Anna Raven wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 20:50

1. Kirby
2. John Byrne
3. Mark Silvestri
4. Dave Cockrum
Agreed.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Nu-D » 09 Apr 2018, 22:02

Hmm, Byrne, Smith, JRJR, Silvestri.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by WorldWideWade » 09 Apr 2018, 22:08

I really feel like Jim Lee needs to be one of the 4. His designs are possibly the most iconic outside the X-men hardcore fans.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Cyke » 09 Apr 2018, 22:43

Hm, this may be sacrilegious but of all the Silver Age Marvel titles, X-Men is the one of the few that I don't immediately associate with Kirby. Certainly not as much as FF, Avengers, or Thor.

So my choices would be:

Bryne
Cockrum
Lee
Davis
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by ev82 » 09 Apr 2018, 22:52

Kirby
Bryne
Lee
Bachalo or Larroca
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Cable » 09 Apr 2018, 23:44

I'll say it because I know no one else wants to, but you have to seriously consider Liefeld. He had a big part in creating iconic characters like Cable and Deadpool (who has basically become a franchise himself) and his X-Force created a standard of 'edgy' teams (as in the more gritty/violent X-squads) that is carried forward to this day in various versions.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Gomurr the Ancient » 10 Apr 2018, 04:15

In terms of significance to the x-books themselves, though, I'm not sure Deadpool rates. He really is off in his own corner most of the time with little significance on the x-books or their direction. Cable is more significant to the x-books as a whole, but still sort of off on his own - when I read the X-Men books chronologically, I didn't bother reading Cable or Deadpool aside from a handful of crossover issues and never felt like there was something going on in those books that really informed of shaped the main story. And I don't think of they art as really shaking the franchise. Of course, your definition of significance may differ from mine.

As for 'edgy' - is that the artist or writer who did that? My understanding is Liefeld wanted to see Liefeldian characters, but could care less about what was going on in the plot. In my estimation it was the plot, not the pouches, that made X-Force an edgier team.

So, Liefeld's not on it for me. I'm also kinda with Cyke on Kirby - X-Men wasn't his best work, and a lot of his designs didn't last. The man deserves respect, of course, but on this one series I'm not sure he's top four.

I'd go Cockrum, Byrne, Lee, Silvestri, I think. But that last one could be traded out for Kirby or maybe even Davis pretty justifiably.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Cable » 10 Apr 2018, 10:19

Gomurr the Ancient wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 04:15

As for 'edgy' - is that the artist or writer who did that? My understanding is Liefeld wanted to see Liefeldian characters, but could care less about what was going on in the plot. In my estimation it was the plot, not the pouches, that made X-Force an edgier team.
You are incorrect on this point because Liefeld actually did both the art and the plotting. Nicieza just did the dialogue. So there are iconic characters and books that would not exist without Liefeld. How does that compare, as one example that is popular here, with Marc Silvestri? If we are going with beautiful art that is one thing, but artists that actually had a lasting impact, Liefeld is bigger in my opinion. Silvestri created the design for Jubilee and the Reavers and that's about it.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Apr 2018, 10:26

I don’t know how a person could justifynot including Jin Lee. His looks are arguably the most recognizable depictions of the main X-Men, PERIOD.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by tokenBG1009 » 10 Apr 2018, 10:41

Artists rankings are weird for comics because due to it being a visual medium they're very important but at the same time, the writer gets most of the credit for things done in a book. Liefeld is one of those who I think SHOULD be in there, but sure as hell never would be, because he managed to be both writer and artist and completely defined a generation. Granted, I'm actually a fan of his work so I'm a bit biased.

Jim Lee is obviously going to be there as well. Pretty much every iconic look an X-Men character has is due to his work. I can visualize many outfits for the X-Men, but if I ask a random person with passing knowledge of Cyclops' uniform they're going to mention Lee's. It's actually always weird to me that he's one of the heads at DC because I envision him as pure Marvel a lot.

Cockrum and Bryne are the people the foundation of the X-Men were rebuilt on though and so they end up getting in as well.

Kirby, I wouldn't put in because of the same reason I wouldn't put Lee. You don't put God on Mount Rushmore.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by EphemeristX » 10 Apr 2018, 16:30

Jim Lee has to be on there. He designed the costumes they wore on the Fox cartoon. He literally defined the look of the X-Men for millions of kids.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Spectral Knight » 10 Apr 2018, 18:13

Oops didn't see this thread before posting my artist choices on the writers thread.

I can't believe that anyone wouldn't have Lee on their list for art. He defined a generation with his costume designs far more than any other beside maybe Cockrum, and his art legacy lasted well beyond his own run.

1. Kirby
2. Cockrum
3. Byrne
4. Lee

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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Cable » 10 Apr 2018, 18:30

The artist one is harder because with writers it is easy to tell who was influential--later creators use their characters and concepts. With artists I'm sure a professional can look at the modern books and see oh this person is clearly inspired by so-and-so's past work and so on. If you are someone who doesn't know how to draw (which includes me) then it is harder to detect those artistic lineages, so you think about the more overt stuff.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Nu-D » 10 Apr 2018, 18:37

Cyke wrote:
09 Apr 2018, 22:43
Hm, this may be sacrilegious but of all the Silver Age Marvel titles, X-Men is the one of the few that I don't immediately associate with Kirby. Certainly not as much as FF, Avengers, or Thor.
Here’s a pretty complete list of Kirby’s contributions to the X-Men.

Kirby’s lasting influence:
—Blue & gold (since, pretty updated)
—Cyke’s first visor (not updated until Cockrum, and not substantially changed until Bendis)
—Magneto
—Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch
—Sentinels
—Juggernaut
—Icy Iceman

On the other hand, the following Kirby designs didn’t stick:
—Vanisher
—Snowy Iceman
—Jean’s power signature

Designs that were nothing special:
—Xavier, Hank, Warren and Jean. All pretty generic designs.
—The Stranger
—Unus the Untouchable
—The Blob
—Toad and Mastermind
—Lucifer
—Kazar

When I started writing this post, I was leaning against including him. But on balance, I think some of those iconic designs have been very enduring, and he deserves a spot.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Nu-D » 10 Apr 2018, 18:44

On the other hand, how can any X-Artist Rushmore leave off Cockrum! Though Byrne refined a lot of his designes, they were still Cockrum’s designs. Nightcrawler, Storm, Colossus, Logan’s iconic look out of costume), Phoenix. Then there’s the Shi’ar, Imperial Guard, and the Starjammers. Not to mention updates on Cyclops, and Logan’s costume, and Banshee.

So I change my vote to include Cockrum and omit Byrne. Though I like Byrne’s work better, it’s really just a refinement of Cockrum’s design ideas.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by EphemeristX » 10 Apr 2018, 18:47

I noticed I posted it before on the Writers thread, but I'll put it here:

Kirby
Cockrum
Byrne
(Jim) Lee
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Anna Raven » 10 Apr 2018, 20:14

Cable wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 18:30
The artist one is harder because with writers it is easy to tell who was influential--later creators use their characters and concepts. With artists I'm sure a professional can look at the modern books and see oh this person is clearly inspired by so-and-so's past work and so on. If you are someone who doesn't know how to draw (which includes me) then it is harder to detect those artistic lineages, so you think about the more overt stuff.
This is why I say Silvestri and not Lee. I get that Lee created possibly more enduring iconic costumes, but I almost feel like that's because Lee had more of the benefit of mixed media like the cartoon and video games which popped up at the time he was drawing X-Men. On the flip side. Silvestri to me created THE iconic modern day X-Men look, which Jim Lee effectively copied. (He copied it very well, but nonetheless). Silvestri was a CLEAR influence on Lee and a lot of other artists thereafter.

One name that hasn't been mentioned yet btw, but is someone I had quite a bit of trouble leaving off my list is Art Adams. I can't quite bring myself to have him instead of anyone else I named, but on a personal taste level I think he is amazing.

Some of my other honorable mentions:
-Bachallo
-Whilce Portacio (similar to Lee)
-Frank Quitely
-John Cassaday
-Salvadore LaRocca
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Cyke » 10 Apr 2018, 23:24

Nu-D wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 18:37
When I started writing this post, I was leaning against including him. But on balance, I think some of those iconic designs have been very enduring, and he deserves a spot.
I would have no problem with including Kirby on any such list as this. As with Stan Lee, without Kirby, there would be no characters/franchise to extol. But from what I've seen over the years, Kirby's X-work isn't nearly as celebrated in general as is his work with FF, Avengers, or Thor. (Or for that matter, neither is Lee's X-work). Granted, it shouldn't be like that (given the examples you've provided) but I think it's safe to say that if you mention X-Men to a casual comic fan, their first response is going to be Claremont or Byrne.

Or maybe even Jim Lee. The media explosion surrounding his time should not be discounted. The Fox cartoon, when it first premiered, was a massive success, long awaited for on the small screen. It forever solidified Lee's designs in pop culture.

As for Liefeld, I may have to reluctantly agree with his consideration. With artists, style is as important as tone and characterization are to writers. Lee's style was highly popular and influential. The same could be said about Liefeld, his style defined a popular period of the franchise. Else for better or worse, we wouldn't be making foot and pouch jokes to this day.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Gomurr the Ancient » 11 Apr 2018, 05:09

Hmm... Nu-D, you've made a good case for Kirby. I think perhaps I was evaluating his significance in comparison to his significance in his other franchises, rather than just against the other x-artists. The Kirby-scale is though. Swapping him into my artist Rushmore over Silvestri. Mountain carvings are easy to redo, right?

Cable, basically what Anna said re: Silvestri. As for Leifeld, I just don't think of any his creations are iconic X-Men. Some great characters, sure, but I think of them as a bit on the franchise periphiary. But this is just me explaining why he's not in my list, I'm not telling you you're wrong to have him on yours or anything.

Cyke, and anyone really: so Lee gets credited significance in part due to the exposure of his designs and influence via the cartoon, and Liefeld gets credited significance because of the influence his art has had in his wake (neither point of which I'm disputing), should someone be making the case for Quietly?
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by tokenBG1009 » 11 Apr 2018, 07:02

I only know Quietly from his work on Morrison's run and while I realize they made a look that lasted a couple years his art was such a distraction that I have a hard time reading those stories.

The LOOK of the Morrison books didn't really have a huge impact to me. It was one of the things he put forward that got wiped out as soon as he was gone.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Apr 2018, 09:07

No way on Quietly for me... the leathers were ditched as soon as he was, and to a certain degree he certainly took influence from the leather X-costumes from the first movie in his designs too. His character designs of Xorn and Kid Omega were stronger though - but I'm not sure if individual characters necessarily represent the body of his work as a legacy.

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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Nu-D » 13 Apr 2018, 12:58

I love Quitely’s work on X-Men, and elsewhere. But he had little lasting impact on the visual X-canon, (Xorn? Fantomex? Meh) and so I can’t include him.

Silvestri is another of my favorites, and I strongly prefer his work over Jim Lee’s X-Men work. I’m glad to see the love he gets here. But, I think Silvestri’s work largely reflected JRJR’s designs and styles. The transition from Paul Smith’s clean lines to the “sketchy” style, the punk looks with loose belts and random buckles (somewhat streamlined by Silvestri over time). Also, Silvestri’s work was interspersed with Greene’s fill-issues, and though the styles meshed really well, it’s not clear that one or the other was more dominant. Ultimately, what excludes Silvestri from the Rushmore sculpture IMO is that none of his design innovations really had any lasting effect. I mean, did he contribute design elements to any of the eight X-Men on his roster that have endured?

Logan—Silvestri contributed no change from the older designs.
Storm—no change from the older designs.
Rogue—has gone between her earlier Green & White, and her later Green & Yellow. the Silvestri Green & Black has been entirely absent from her wardrobe since the 80’s.
Dazzler—the blue bodysuit is long gone, and I don’t think it was Silvestri’s innovation anyhow.
Havoc—the black bodysuit was not Silvestri
Colossus—no contribution
Longshot—no contribution
Psylocke—I think her armor was Silvestri’s design, but it’s long gone.

And innovative takes on villains? Well, there’s the reavers. They’re kind of like Warlock/Sienkiewicz; Silvestri’s designs worked really well for Silvestri, but anyone else who draws them kind of has to do their own thing. His takes on Limbo demons, the Brood, were great, but not significantly different from the original. Zaladane and the Mutates? Actually, I think Lee drew that arc. And Genosha is just a bunch of humans; no innovative design there that had any lasting effect.

So, all-in-all, I see little lasting effect of Silvestri’s era on the look of the X-Men. As much as I think his art is far more exciting and fun than Lee, Lee’s designs have been far more enduring and thus it’s his visage that should be carved into stone.

So I’m currently at Kirby, Cockrum and Lee. I’ll reserve my fourth vote for the moment. I feel like someone from a satellite title might be warranted. Sienkewicz? Alan Davis?
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Nu-D » 13 Apr 2018, 18:52

Since my criteria is largely who created the most original and enduring designs, it’s hard to see who else might be included. Kirby & Cockrum created the foundation of what we have. Byrne simply refined and worked on Cockrum’s designs. He contributed a couple of original bits (Kitty, Logan’s revamped costume), but not a lot. After Cockrum round 2, was Paul Smith, and then JRJR. Smith refined Rogue’s look, and reinvented Ororo. Both are pretty significant, but that’s only two characters. JRJR took the Smith designs and tweaked them out of the early eighties and into the punk-influenced mid-‘80’s. Silvestri, as noted above, continued that. Art Adams invented Longshot and Mojo. He did some great, creative and innovative takes, but none stuck.

In the meantime, on the satellite titles, there’s was the Simonson reinvention of Warren and creation of Apocalypse; those were pretty big. But they also failed terribly with Nanny, Orphanmaker and the Right. There was Sienkiewicz’s Warlock. Alan Davis defined Kitty for a generation. Who was the artist who created Wolfbane, Cannonball and Sunspot? Those were pretty enduring design innovations. Maybe that’s the other face on the mountain? Liefield created Cable, Stryfe, Deadpool and Domin. But his re-do of the rest of NMU was pretty generic.

Then came Jim Lee, who reinvented them all. New looks for Betsy, Rogue, Scott, Jean and Ororo. Returning Logan to his original look. Gambit. Jubilee. Lee had the single most influential renovation in X-Men history. As much as I think his work was terrible and I generally dislike his designs, they absolutely had more effect on the X-Men visual world than any other artist excepting Kirby & Cockrum.

Since Lee artists have felt a lot more leeway to just go with new designs whenever they want, and so few have stuck. The handful of complete revamps did not last (Quitely, Larocca). New designs come now and then, but no artist really builds up a gallery of new ideas like Cockrum and Kirby did.

So who drew Marvel Graphic Novel #4? I think that’s my guy. Wolfbane, Sunspot and most of all Cannonball are all pretty enduring and unique.
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Re: X-Artists Rushmore

Post by Anna Raven » 13 Apr 2018, 19:02

Nu-D wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 18:52
So who drew Marvel Graphic Novel #4? I think that’s my guy. Wolfbane, Sunspot and most of all Cannonball are all pretty enduring and unique.
That would be Bob McLeod
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