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Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

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tokenBG1009
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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by tokenBG1009 » 10 Jun 2018, 22:31

I definitely remember the Mystique and Destiny story. Rachel and Kitty are old news and I actually thought, and looked around years ago for it, that the Storm/Yukio thing was an actual thing.

Illyana seems like someone who could either be gay or asexual. I honestly wouldn't mind someone being asexual as I don't think I've ever seen it before. Wasn't she in love with one of the other New Mutants?
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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by EphemeristX » 10 Jun 2018, 23:53

As far as I know, the only romantic entanglements Illyana's ever had was being hit on by all the boys in that one dance they had with the Hellions. And Kitty got super jealous.

Rahne had a crush on Sam and both Sam and Berto had crushes on Amara, I think.
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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Nu-D » 11 Jun 2018, 13:23

Asexual people can fall in love and have crushes. Sexual attraction is only one dimension of love.

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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by RingOtaku » 11 Jun 2018, 14:28

Nu-D wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 13:23
Asexual people can fall in love and have crushes. Sexual attraction is only one dimension of love.
True. I know a happily married couple who are in an asexual relationship.
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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Gurney Halleck » 15 Jun 2018, 07:30

Nu-D wrote:
05 Jun 2018, 16:22
I’d honestly prefer Jean and Scott to be Rachel’s parents. She doesn’t need a more complicated origin.
Rachel being the sole X-survivor of a dystopian alternate future was complicated a backstory enough. Probably a minority view, but I never liked her becoming the Phoenix herself. Had it been temporarily in order to fight of the Beyonder OK, but what's the point of having a team member with cosmic abilities? And then they wrote the character out of the series to become Mother Askani as well...

So I cannot help but feel that Claremont writing her as a telekinepath in the 2000s, before 'End of Greys', was the best interpretation of her. Showing her as a person, not as an incarnation of a deity.

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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Gurney Halleck » 15 Jun 2018, 07:39

Something just occured to me. In interviews Claremont sometimes criticised certain developments of other writers. But when he wrote, he did himself what he faults in other writers.

For example, he regrets peple staying on the team forever instead of moving on. But he and Louise Simonson were the once wo brought the original X-men back together as X-factor and have Havok rejoin the X-men in the eighties. Claremont also played a part in reshuffling all characters over the teams early 90s.

Havok and Polaris never wanted to be heroes for decades - thereby proving that joining the school did not mean you had to be an X-man forever.

Chris, love your work, but you cannot blame others for what you did yourself. :(
Last edited by Gurney Halleck on 15 Jun 2018, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Gurney Halleck » 15 Jun 2018, 08:09

EphemeristX wrote:
10 Jun 2018, 23:53
As far as I know, the only romantic entanglements Illyana's ever had was being hit on by all the boys in that one dance they had with the Hellions. And Kitty got super jealous.

Rahne had a crush on Sam and both Sam and Berto had crushes on Amara, I think.
Could you be mixing up two different issues? The dance with the Hellions was in New Mutants#55 I guess? Haven't got a copy, but it was refered to in #56. In #56 and 57, Illyana (and Dani) was talking about not having enough boys around. Was Kitty at the dance with the Hellions? Seems unlikely, with her litterally not being able to hold herself together after the Mutants Massacre.

There was however an issue in which Kitty and the New Mutants attended a dance at the Westchester High School, I think #45, in which Kitty and Illyana were both interested in boys. Kitty was frustrated alright...because a boy only danced with her to get close to Illyana!

So I guess Illyana was already shown to look at boys under Claremont. And in that same issue, Kitty got close toLarry, a boy of the 'normal' high school... He would commit suicide, because of a prank call suggesting X-factor would be send after him.

That's one of the reasons why I doubt Claremont meant the Rachel/Kitty romance. Kitty had been shown interested not just in Colossus, but having crushes on Doug, Larry and Longshot - all in stories he wrote himself.

Rachel was in love with alternate future Franklin Richards (they were even married, I think).
But face it, with the childhoods she and Illyana had...well, 'normal' teenage behaviour might no longer apply. They both grew up watching alernative versions of everyone they knew die - why love people if you will lose them eventually?

Rachel and Illyana could end up either letting no one closer than a fling or only going for someone with enough life experience or empathy to go beyond what they experienced. We're talking about two girls who litterally went through hell when they were just children!

Illyana was a child soldier who was trained to become a warlord, Rachel was used as a child soldier and then sent to concentration camp. Would a random teenage boy or young adult male be able to cope with that?

And yet both girls already got to know Kitty before they were even teenagers. Kitty was litterally the last friendly person Illyana saw before falling into a demon's hands! To them, Kitty embodies their lost youth and innocence. So that makes Kitty important to them.

As Storm once said to Bishop: "Americans find it difficult to understand that men and women can have a bond based on mutual respect'. Not every personal connection is about romantic love or sex. Romance is a form of love, friendship and family are other variants. But for some reason, fiction writers insist on every close bond with someone who isn't family ending in romance or soap drama...

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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by tokenBG1009 » 15 Jun 2018, 09:37

Your last statement isn't remotely true. While there are quite a few romantic relationships in the X-Verse there are many more close platonic relationships.
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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Blackcyclops » 15 Jun 2018, 10:33

tokenBG1009 wrote:
15 Jun 2018, 09:37
Your last statement isn't remotely true. While there are quite a few romantic relationships in the X-Verse there are many more close platonic relationships.
There are ALOT...

Then again as we see in countless mixed sex militaries, living the life that the X-Men live would make sense that alot of sex is happening...which isn’t the same as romance lol
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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Nu-D » 16 Jun 2018, 11:03

Gurney Halleck wrote:
15 Jun 2018, 07:39
Something just occured to me. In interviews Claremont sometimes criticised certain developments of other writers. But when he wrote, he did himself what he faults in other writers.

For example, he regrets peple staying on the team forever instead of moving on. But he and Louise Simonson were the once wo brought the original X-men back together as X-factor and have Havok rejoin the X-men in the eighties. Claremont also played a part in reshuffling all characters over the teams early 90s.

Havok and Polaris never wanted to be heroes for decades - thereby proving that joining the school did not mean you had to be an X-man forever.

Chris, love your work, but you cannot blame others for what you did yourself. :(
Claremont objected to both the creation of X-Factor and the 1991 reshuffle. He was overruled by editorial on both. In order to keep as much control over these characters as possible, he chose to participate. But he did not want to bring characters out of retirement in either case.

As for Havok, that is an example of CC bringing a character out of retirement on his own initiative (Dazzler too). But CC never envisioned retirement as happily ever after. He’s always discussed it as characters choosing a life outside of the X-men and developing elsewhere, to be called on in the comics from time to time. When Havok came back, it was reluctantly. He still did not want to be an X-Man. But his life fell apart and he came looking for help. He got caught up in events and never had a chance to get back to his life before CC left the books.

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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Nu-D » 16 Jun 2018, 11:17

Gurney Halleck wrote:
15 Jun 2018, 08:09
EphemeristX wrote:
10 Jun 2018, 23:53
As far as I know, the only romantic entanglements Illyana's ever had was being hit on by all the boys in that one dance they had with the Hellions. And Kitty got super jealous.

Rahne had a crush on Sam and both Sam and Berto had crushes on Amara, I think.
Could you be mixing up two different issues? The dance with the Hellions was in New Mutants#55 I guess? Haven't got a copy, but it was refered to in #56. In #56 and 57, Illyana (and Dani) was talking about not having enough boys around. Was Kitty at the dance with the Hellions? Seems unlikely, with her litterally not being able to hold herself together after the Mutants Massacre.

There was however an issue in which Kitty and the New Mutants attended a dance at the Westchester High School, I think #45, in which Kitty and Illyana were both interested in boys. Kitty was frustrated alright...because a boy only danced with her to get close to Illyana!

So I guess Illyana was already shown to look at boys under Claremont. And in that same issue, Kitty got close toLarry, a boy of the 'normal' high school... He would commit suicide, because of a prank call suggesting X-factor would be send after him.

That's one of the reasons why I doubt Claremont meant the Rachel/Kitty romance. Kitty had been shown interested not just in Colossus, but having crushes on Doug, Larry and Longshot - all in stories he wrote himself.

Rachel was in love with alternate future Franklin Richards (they were even married, I think).
But face it, with the childhoods she and Illyana had...well, 'normal' teenage behaviour might no longer apply. They both grew up watching alernative versions of everyone they knew die - why love people if you will lose them eventually?

Rachel and Illyana could end up either letting no one closer than a fling or only going for someone with enough life experience or empathy to go beyond what they experienced. We're talking about two girls who litterally went through hell when they were just children!

Illyana was a child soldier who was trained to become a warlord, Rachel was used as a child soldier and then sent to concentration camp. Would a random teenage boy or young adult male be able to cope with that?

And yet both girls already got to know Kitty before they were even teenagers. Kitty was litterally the last friendly person Illyana saw before falling into a demon's hands! To them, Kitty embodies their lost youth and innocence. So that makes Kitty important to them.

As Storm once said to Bishop: "Americans find it difficult to understand that men and women can have a bond based on mutual respect'. Not every personal connection is about romantic love or sex. Romance is a form of love, friendship and family are other variants. But for some reason, fiction writers insist on every close bond with someone who isn't family ending in romance or soap drama...
I think it possible that CC intentionally wrote romantic undertones into Kitty’s relationship with Rachel, Illyana and later Karma. That’s not inconsistent with any of the more explicit material. It does not require some kind of grand plan to have any of these characters be gay or bisexual. It would merely represent playing with some ideas and planting some seeds to possibly develop later. CC planted a lot of possible plot seeds in his first run that he never developed. These female relationships are one of them.

In fact, I think it entirely possible that this represents a real blind spot for CC. If it’s true that he thought of these female friendships as possibly romantic, then I think he misunderstands female friendship from a very ... uh ... male fantasy point of view. Not all female intimacy is sexual (of course), and most isn’t. So if he really was intentional in sewing the seeds for romance in all his f these female friendships, he’s being rather boorish.

What it think most likely, however, is he developed a lot of close female friendships with the idea that one day he might develop one into a relationship when the time was right. He did not intend ALL of them to develop romantically, but he wanted to lay some groundwork. When the time finally came in the 2000s that such a thing could be done in a comic, he picked Karma because she was available.

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Re: Claremont on Jay and Miles xplain the xmen podcast

Post by Nu-D » 16 Jun 2018, 11:22

tokenBG1009 wrote:
15 Jun 2018, 09:37
Your last statement isn't remotely true. While there are quite a few romantic relationships in the X-Verse there are many more close platonic relationships.
There may be more platonic relationships, but it is true that because of the long soap opera form of storytelling, you eventually will run into a writer who wants to take platonic to romantic in just about any case. Logan and Ororo are exhibit A.

If X-Men lasts to 2250, you will see every possible pairing you can imagine, and many that you can’t.

EDIT: sorry for the multi post string. Writing on a phone makes it very had to cut and paste and reply to several different comments n one post.

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