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Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

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Nu-D
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Nu-D » 18 Mar 2021, 10:14

Spectral Knight wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 05:10
I think you're missing some key elements of Doom though, yes, he's a petty dictator but he is also an utter genius. Whilst he might not quite hit Reed's peak on sheer science, he obliterates him in his command of sorcery.

He's a polymath of the highest order and his flaws, his ego and his delusions of grandeur, that actually prevent him from being more than he is capable of being. He actually IS brilliant in so many ways.

It is a warning and illustration on the nature and consequences of pride where the search for perfection and to prove that perfection has prevented him from being the man he could be for so long.
See, to me, none of that makes a relatable character. It’s his very uniqueness that makes the character seem flat.
Blackcyclops wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 01:14
I can’t really argue with your view but it does sounds like one based on incomplete data, at least on Dr. Doom (and at least some versions of the Joker...that’s the thing about DC villains, the true fluidity of their continuity allows for some very diverging takes on characters with less “they’re out of character” backlash). Like someone basing their view of Magneto only off the stories written about him from 1962-1992 that weren’t written by CC.
No doubt.
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Spectral Knight » 18 Mar 2021, 11:25

I agree that it is not necessarily 'relatable' but I don't think it speaks of a flatness / shallowness, in fact it's the very opposite to me.

There's still tremendous depth to Doom - his personal honour, his genuine belief that he (and to his flaws, only he) can make the world better. It's a mirroring of the vanity of so many real life politicians dialled up to eleven. It's a strange combination of intense pride at his own abilities, yet a deep routed jealousy and envy of Reed.

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Holland Oates » 18 Mar 2021, 14:14

Spectral Knight wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 11:25
I agree that it is not necessarily 'relatable' but I don't think it speaks of a flatness / shallowness, in fact it's the very opposite to me.

There's still tremendous depth to Doom - his personal honour, his genuine belief that he (and to his flaws, only he) can make the world better. It's a mirroring of the vanity of so many real life politicians dialled up to eleven. It's a strange combination of intense pride at his own abilities, yet a deep routed jealousy and envy of Reed.
one problem is that he's been around long enough and been allowed to take over the world enough to see that he really can't make the world a better place. And it's because he's just as vain and petty as he is booksmart. He thought it would be a good idea to remove everyone's free will. Then, in his "genius," he realized that there was no fun in forcing people to obey him. He needed everyone to recognize/reflect his greatness. So he self sabotaged. And Battleworld was a nightmarish reality that Doom, as god, was 100% responsible for. He should now know with 100% certainty that he's the wrong person to rule the world. Instead, he went right back to trying to kill the Richards family. Reed fixed the face of the man who tortured him in front of his kids. What people generally describe as depth just seems like a fragile ego, to me.

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Holland Oates » 18 Mar 2021, 14:28

Cable wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 16:37
Holland Oates wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 15:29
Cable wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 15:00
Doom is a more complex villain than he is given credit for but nostalgia tends to cause him to always revert to his original status quo. Which really is the case for almost all major villains. Magneto is good character for being the rare exception (though it took the Xorneto retcon to save us.)

In terms of accomplishment, it is irrefutable that Doom is the greatest villain though.
Is he? Why not the Red Skull? If we're talking about harm, Schmidt has nazism in his resume.
Dr Doom defeated the Beyonders and became the ruler of the entire multiverse. In terms of seeking power, there is literally no accomplishment that could be greater.
He ruled over Battleworld; basically the crumbs of the multiverse. Still seems like something that Thanos could have done without the Molecule Man.

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Mar 2021, 14:54

How could he have done it without Molecule Man?

I mean yeah you could write anything if you wanted (I mean that’s true of all possibilities) but in the context of the events that happened, Thanos would’ve needed the Molecule Man too lol...like that’s just the story mechanics of what happened in TRO.

I mean really Thanos and Doom are overrated to me (Thanos is overhyped way more outside of hardcore comic fans than anybody not named the Joker lol)...the best villains, for me, similarly to NuD are those with more humanity or those who are just incredibly fascinating overall (like many versions of the Joker).
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Anna Raven » 18 Mar 2021, 19:18

Don't you guys find fun in cartoony kitsch now and then? ☺️
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Blackcyclops » 18 Mar 2021, 19:57

Anna Raven wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 19:18
Don't you guys find fun in cartoony kitsch now and then? ☺️
Yeah I do but I think it’s not vogue lol

Which is why villains like Mojo can at times be interesting
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by tokenBG1009 » 18 Mar 2021, 20:14

I do, and this should be clear by my normal taste in all things.

Except Doom just sucks. He's treated too seriously for his style of character to really be enjoyable to me. I enjoy Doom when he's being defeated because it's always in a moment of "Pride cometh before the fall." Doom's only real fault is his pride. Which wouldn't be a problem. Magneto is extremely proud. Red Skull is proud. Thanos is proud. Most big name villains are prideful. It kind of comes with the territory. Except basically every villain also has some kind of struggle. They have a motivation. Doom's motivation is "Doom is Right" and I find that boring.

Magneto gets humanized through his past trauma.
Thanos isn't meant to be humanized because he's meant to be larger than life.
Red Skull isn't meant to be humanized because he's a literal nazi.
Doom, as a villain, just... exists. He's evil because of pride. He's evil because he's right. Writers frequently go out of their way to show that if we all just got out of the way Doom would be the greatest their is. He's not a mustache twirling villain that would fit the cartoony kitsch. He's basically Ozymandias from Watchmen. Except where Ozymandias succeeded Doom doesn't.

(Off topic, but I also hate Watchmen so... -shrug-)
Blackcyclops wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 19:57
Anna Raven wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 19:18
Don't you guys find fun in cartoony kitsch now and then? ☺️
Yeah I do but I think it’s not vogue lol

Which is why villains like Mojo can at times be interesting
Mojo is a villain I hate to see, but DAMN is he something when he shows up. If Doom did more scene chewing when he showed up I'd probably enjoy him more.
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Nu-D » 18 Mar 2021, 23:28

Anna Raven wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 19:18
Don't you guys find fun in cartoony kitsch now and then? ☺️
Now and then =/= best villain ever.
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Holland Oates » 19 Mar 2021, 16:10

Blackcyclops wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 14:54
How could he have done it without Molecule Man?

I mean yeah you could write anything if you wanted (I mean that’s true of all possibilities) but in the context of the events that happened, Thanos would’ve needed the Molecule Man too lol...like that’s just the story mechanics of what happened in TRO.

I mean really Thanos and Doom are overrated to me (Thanos is overhyped way more outside of hardcore comic fans than anybody not named the Joker lol)...the best villains, for me, similarly to NuD are those with more humanity or those who are just incredibly fascinating overall (like many versions of the Joker).
I think he could have done it with an infinity gauntlet. It didn't work for Captain America because he doesn't think like Thanos. But yeah they are walking deux ex machina.

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Blackcyclops » 19 Mar 2021, 16:25

Holland Oates wrote:
19 Mar 2021, 16:10
Blackcyclops wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 14:54
How could he have done it without Molecule Man?

I mean yeah you could write anything if you wanted (I mean that’s true of all possibilities) but in the context of the events that happened, Thanos would’ve needed the Molecule Man too lol...like that’s just the story mechanics of what happened in TRO.

I mean really Thanos and Doom are overrated to me (Thanos is overhyped way more outside of hardcore comic fans than anybody not named the Joker lol)...the best villains, for me, similarly to NuD are those with more humanity or those who are just incredibly fascinating overall (like many versions of the Joker).
I think he could have done it with an infinity gauntlet. It didn't work for Captain America because he doesn't think like Thanos. But yeah they are walking deux ex machina.
It didn’t work for Cap because infinity gauntlets only work in their native universes (something set up by Gruenwald pre-Hickman), so to hold together the a fragmented version of the entire multiverse wouldn’t have worked. Doom was able to do what he did by channeling all the energy of the Beyonders’ bomb (ie Molecule Man).

So no he couldn’t have done it with the Infinity Gauntlet. Not to sound snarky, but did you read the Hickman Avengers run? I only ask because I feel like that point wouldMve been obvious.
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Holland Oates » 20 Mar 2021, 00:17

Blackcyclops wrote:
19 Mar 2021, 16:25
Holland Oates wrote:
19 Mar 2021, 16:10
Blackcyclops wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 14:54
How could he have done it without Molecule Man?

I mean yeah you could write anything if you wanted (I mean that’s true of all possibilities) but in the context of the events that happened, Thanos would’ve needed the Molecule Man too lol...like that’s just the story mechanics of what happened in TRO.

I mean really Thanos and Doom are overrated to me (Thanos is overhyped way more outside of hardcore comic fans than anybody not named the Joker lol)...the best villains, for me, similarly to NuD are those with more humanity or those who are just incredibly fascinating overall (like many versions of the Joker).
I think he could have done it with an infinity gauntlet. It didn't work for Captain America because he doesn't think like Thanos. But yeah they are walking deux ex machina.
It didn’t work for Cap because infinity gauntlets only work in their native universes (something set up by Gruenwald pre-Hickman), so to hold together the a fragmented version of the entire multiverse wouldn’t have worked. Doom was able to do what he did by channeling all the energy of the Beyonders’ bomb (ie Molecule Man).

So no he couldn’t have done it with the Infinity Gauntlet. Not to sound snarky, but did you read the Hickman Avengers run? I only ask because I feel like that point wouldMve been obvious.
Saving one universe is just as worthwhile as preserving damaged bits of multiple realities imo. There was nothing utopian about Battleworld. Reed and Franklin still had to fix everything.

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Blackcyclops » 20 Mar 2021, 01:38

Ok...but that has nothing to do with what I said or with what you even started saying.

You said Thanos could’ve done with an Infinity Gauntlet, what Doom did with basically Molecule Man as a multiversal power reservoir.

And I bluntly demonstrated that no he couldn’t. And you can’t refute that given the circumstances.

An IG only works in it’s own universe. Thus, why BP only used one during Secret Wars while in the segment of battleworld that was the native home of those gems.

So you couldn’t pull together multiple pieces of various universes with 1 single Infinity Gauntlet.

Also, Thanos lost to God Doom and so did BP with an IG.

Like I really don’t even know what we’re debating here lol
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by Holland Oates » 21 Mar 2021, 21:39

Yeah it's not worthy of debate. "Saving" the multiverse wasn't an act of supervillainy.

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by norwichchris » 10 Nov 2021, 17:57

Dr Doom is the best Villain because

1. he is a master of sorcery
2. Highly skilled in Technology such as Doombots
3. Successfully runs his own country which has not been sacked/destroyed like Wakanda,Genosha
4. Saved the Multiverse although made himself a God being
5. Has a rather cool although dated metal suit

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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by tokenBG1009 » 11 Nov 2021, 23:42

Holland Oates wrote:
21 Mar 2021, 21:39
Yeah it's not worthy of debate. "Saving" the multiverse wasn't an act of supervillainy.
No, but it was the achievement of Doom's goal. He achieved absolute power and that's all Doom has ever desired. This is why he'd be considered the "most successful" villain in Marvel.

Red Skull failed to exterminate... anyone really.
Magneto failed in exterminating humans.
Thanos failed in exterminating everyone.
Apocalypse failed in exterminating the weak.

Doom is one of the only supervillains that can really ever achieve his goal because if any of the others do we wouldn't have comics anymore. Lex Luthor would probably be the equivalent of Doom over in DC and I'd say he's basically as successful, just on a smaller scale. Doom became the most powerful person in the multiverse and Luthor became the most powerful man in the world.

Edit: Oh, and Doom sucks. Forgot that part.
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Re: Why Doom Is The Best Supervillain

Post by norwichchris » 22 Nov 2021, 16:41

tokenBG1009 wrote:
11 Nov 2021, 23:42
Holland Oates wrote:
21 Mar 2021, 21:39
Yeah it's not worthy of debate. "Saving" the multiverse wasn't an act of supervillainy.
No, but it was the achievement of Doom's goal. He achieved absolute power and that's all Doom has ever desired. This is why he'd be considered the "most successful" villain in Marvel.

Red Skull failed to exterminate... anyone really.
Magneto failed in exterminating humans.
Thanos failed in exterminating everyone.
Apocalypse failed in exterminating the weak.

Doom is one of the only supervillains that can really ever achieve his goal because if any of the others do we wouldn't have comics anymore. Lex Luthor would probably be the equivalent of Doom over in DC and I'd say he's basically as successful, just on a smaller scale. Doom became the most powerful person in the multiverse and Luthor became the most powerful man in the world.

Edit: Oh, and Doom sucks. Forgot that part.
Note: Magneto most of the time didn't want to exterminate all humans just make sure they recognize Mutant domination over them forever and have a Mutants only homeland.

Apocalypse was half as successful as Doom as he has survived for 5000 years as well had the biggest impact on Mutant/Humankind of any supervillain.

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