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Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

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Blackcyclops
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Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Apr 2020, 17:09

Isolating them from the other titles and just looking at them against each other. Who had a better overall run?

Peter David’s X-Factor (vol.3) #1-50
VS
Mike Carey’s X-Men (vol.2) #188-225
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Aeon
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Aeon » 26 Apr 2020, 17:14

I didnt like most of the artists during Mike's x-men run, so I go with Pete

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Apr 2020, 17:39

Aeon wrote:
26 Apr 2020, 17:14
I didnt like most of the artists during Mike's x-men run, so I go with Pete

Pete did have some good art...
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das_boot
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by das_boot » 26 Apr 2020, 19:20

Nope. You can’t make me pick. Not between two of my favourite x-writers of all time.
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by tokenBG1009 » 26 Apr 2020, 22:04

Carey, easily. I have some weird beef with the way PAD's run ended up that has soured the entire thing for me.
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Spectral Knight » 26 Apr 2020, 22:24

Ooh, tough one. PAD for me for consistency.

I think I enjoyed Carey's work from when it became X-Men Legacy but the first couple of arcs he did on Adjectiveless didn't do much for me. I think I chalk it up to not enjoying the art that much. I might go back to these to see if my thoughts would change at all in retrospect.

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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Red Strings » 27 Apr 2020, 12:40

Honestly? I love both, I think they're both consistently pretty good. I think PAD may just take it for me though because I really liked the storylines he was telling and overall I think I liked his cast more.

I think in terms of quality they're pretty much on par (and I love love LOVE Mike Carey) but I think X-Factor was fantastic and I also remember not being a fan of a lot of the art on Carey's run. (was it Humberto Ramos? I feel like I didn't like his pencilling work at this point and also I remember the really jarring shift between Bachalo and Clay Mann in that one arc which really messed it up.) I like Bachalo and I love Clay Mann (who once drew a picture of my fanfic title NYX before he started working for marvel - I wish I still had that somewhere. I'll fish it out one day) but it was mid-arc and their styles do NOT blend well.

Plus I remember loving X-Factor's Arcade arc.

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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Spectral Knight » 27 Apr 2020, 13:18

I'm pretty sure both Bachalo and Ramos did do issues for Carey's run.

I don't really like Bachalo's art on X-Men, it always looks a bit hyper distorted to me and female characters always end up looking too young. Bizarrely I do like his Spider-Man though.

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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by Red Strings » 27 Apr 2020, 13:24

Bachalo's stuff is hit and miss for me. I feel like he's a good artist for particular kinds of stories. Ramos was bit too cartoony for me, and a bit sloppy back in those days. His characters always felt very two dimensional looking to me. What he's like now I have no idea. I like early Bachalo (Gen X) and I am fond of some of his work but his panels can be a bit cluttered to look at as well.

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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by manuel_mc89 » 27 Apr 2020, 17:18

Do we have a thread revisiting this runs? For me they are a part of the best quality time of the books, and ill repeat again, how much quality there was in the whole Astonishing-Messiah trilogy era, right untill AVX when Bendis took over, and both this books where definitey proof of it, and also remember how Rogue basically had a quite succesfull solo with X-Men Legacy.

The reason that im asking is because i would like a discussion about both the good and the bad of those runs that i think are worth revisiting, i mean X-Factor started as a detective agency and ended up with a mythological war in hell (hah i can see some Angel parallels now), and it had the whole Layla situation that was icky in that yeah, she did grew up but man, Layla is such a tragic character and if i were to ever adapt it i would either not have kid Layla repeating to adult Madrox that they would get married eventually, or not have them get married at all. There's also the time that a literal troll took up space in the book.

On the other hand, Legacy made me realize i was a Romy shipper by giving us Rogneto, and doing it by stablishing firmly that Rogue was NOT interested in Magneto's pursuing her and that he should stop, and having her later sleep with her, was it a mixed message with a bit of a "keep pushing, she might turn around"? Yes, but was that relationship´aboslutely necessary to the story? Actually, no.

I would argue that both books had some amazing art, and some duds, because for a good while X-Factor had that noir feel, and the photorealistic artis whose name i cant remember, and Valentin Delandro, Emmanuela Lupachino, they also had a legendary artist in Larry Stroman, that actually hurt the sales of the book. Also, remember the twists, for a while there it was THE book that we would discuss, all towards to meeting PAD's goal of tripling the sales, that i dont believe was met, but it was soo good, and organic with seeds that tooks us back to the begining of the book.

And X-Men, and Legacy had great art too and we had a good while of Clay Mann drawing everybody hot, and it gave us AoX, and Eaton gave us Rogue with cowboy boots, and all that time Rogue had some great costumes, and it introduced us to Acuña, and remember when Rogue would get her costume shreded, it would show us that she was wearing a bra underneath, and that was refreshing.

I am not counting the Children of The Vault arc because to this day i have never read it, but i understand is amazing.

So, in conclusion, Carey or PAD, this is hard, they are both great in my memory and are great examples of one of the greatest eras for the X-Men, but while i adore both and have read them over and over, i cant excuse that troll watching porn and drinking beer by the end of X-Factor, and the whole Layla situation is a can of worms, so ill give it to Carey for limiting his controversies to Rogneto.
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by medium13 » 27 Apr 2020, 18:03

I prefer Carey. His character work is just wonderful and he manages to really write characters paying homage and respect to their core character while moving them forward In their arcs. Carey just tore Rogue and Xavier apart to rebuild them better and stronger than they were before. These are huge, popular characters and his work was so bold in this regard. He breathed new life into this book starting with Supernovas. I remember seeing the team line up announced and was underwhelmed. What kind of X-Book would have Cable, Cannonball, Sabretooth, and Mystique and feel like it was an X-Book still? It was a feat and it executed it above and beyond. It was innovative and the type of story arcs that didn't let me catch my breath. His character interaction was always so spot on that you understood motivations. Even when a character is unlikeable and a jerk you still end up understanding them and even liking them. It reminded me of a heavier version of Davis's Excalibur that had such strong character beats.

While I loved PAD's work on X-Factor, it didn't feel to me as deep. It's clever, entertaining, and the art was amazing. But, the characters were mostly operating in a vacuum and there was unsatisfactory conclusions to storylines. The characters themselves were also somewhat flat. PAD took one aspect of the characters and inflated the quality to such a point that they lacked real substance. The only character to be more round, was Multiple Man and even those stories had an element of creep factor I didn't care for. No resolution was given for Layla - sure, her reason for knowing stuff was revealed, but shy was she able to activate the memories of people in the House of M ? Where does she come from? Where is she now? Darwin, Longshot, Havok, and Polaris had ownership given to PAD and nothing really came of it. Plus, I felt his No Spoilers mandate was very insulting to the fandom and prohibited actual discussion and commentary on the presentation.

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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by manuel_mc89 » 27 Apr 2020, 21:29

The thing about PAD was that he got into a very toxic relationship with fans of the book, which is why that whole troll character felt forced and unnecessary, and there really was no reason for it to get like that, X-Men fans are... Complicated, imagine if Hickman would be that involved with fans opinions like PAD was, he would've quitted months ago. The book was doing good and that should've been it.

This reminds me, and it would be interesting if we ever get a behind the scenes situation of exactly what happened, but at that moment in Messiah Complex it seemed as if Carry was the main architect of the event and such, with his book tying directly into the story, while New X-Men was in Limbo, Uncanny was in space and X-Factor was doing their own thing.

Then Messiah Complex happens and he appears to be sidetracked over Kyle and Yost, who become like the architects of the Messiah Story and the kine with X-Force, and Fraction in Uncanny, and gets to tell solo stories about Profesor X, that don't really drive the line forward, and about Rogue, that does get to participate heavily in the events once she gets control of her powers.

Edit: regarding Layla, I have to admit even though Monolith explained them to me once, I'm still not sure I understand how her powers work, because she knows stuff that she meticulously wrote in her journals, but she also saw the paths she had to take, as in her Run Layla Run issue, either way I was not that happy with her mutant power being resurrection without a soul, and her knowing stuff being her journal keeping because imagine the level of detail those had to be to know the time at Wich point you had to pick a penny on the subway so the train kills a robot, I'd go crazy.
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by das_boot » 28 Apr 2020, 08:01

@Manuel— so regarding Layla (my home girl who is tattooed on me)
-We actually see Layla use her powers for the first time in issue #6 of this series— her mutant ability is to bring the dead back to life; minus their soul. As she later states when she’s an adult and in the future “when it’s a butterfly or a seal, no one notices, but a human?”
-HOWEVER: we, the reader, as well as X-Factor, were led to believe that Layla’s power was an odd and vague kind of precognition. When adult Layla returned from the future, she found her younger self just after M-Day, and via technology instilled in her the knowledge she needed to help X-Factor and also the knowledge that, at some point, she would HAVE to go to the future to which she wouldn’t be able to return for several months in our time, but at least ten years to her: so she was trapped in a dystopian future for ten years. After adult Layla returned to the present day and have that knowledge to her younger self, she then approached Doctor Doom in order for him to teach her some magic and science, hence her gauntlet that generated a forcefield, and her knowledge of the occult that she gained after that time.

Essentially, from the age of 13 until she returned as an adult to the present, she was in a fixed time loop— when she told people that she couldn’t tell them how she knew things otherwise she’d die— technically not a lie. Just by knowing that Layla would eventually abscond into the future where she would be trapped, she was at risk of creating a paradox, rather than a fixed loop. After all, who in their right mind would have allowed a teenager to be trapped in the dystopian future that Bishop was from? Not only that, but her older self even admitted to her younger self that her memory and knowledge wouldn’t be perfect, but it WOULD be enough for her to get the job done.

Once that had concluded and there was only one Layla in the present day, she admitted that her knowledge of events from that point on was a lot spottier: she still knew that she and Jamie would get married, and she still knew enough to give her team a slight edge, but it was nowhere near as detailed as being able to prevent an assassination, or lining up several pizza deliveries at the same time at the same intersection with malfunctioning traffic lights so she could cause a crash between them and a distraction for the team.

It was revealed that she was responsible for resurrecting Trevor Fitzroy which directly led to the deaths of the Hellions (which she knew would happen and threatened his lover, Ruby Summers, that “what I can giveth, I can taketh away”. She also resurrected Guido which directly led to him becoming a Lord of Hell and killing Rahne’s son with Hrimhari— because she didn’t remember Guido dying.

In the later stages of X-Factor we definitely saw that she was starting to become distressed by her lack of knowledge of the future: whether that’s because information on that period didn’t exist, because she had changed the outcome of that timeline by returning to the present day and changing stuff, or simply because that knowledge faded with age; it’s unclear. All we know is that Layla’s ACTUAL power of returning someone to life (albeit without a soul) is her actual mutant power, and is something that she can undo if necessary.
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by manuel_mc89 » 28 Apr 2020, 20:17

Das, ill dm you to talk more about Layla.
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Re: Better Run: PAD’s X-Factor vs Carey’s X-Men?

Post by RingOtaku » 29 Apr 2020, 15:21

PAD because I'm a mark.
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