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Tarot card references in Dawn of X

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Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by das_boot » 09 Mar 2020, 14:20

So, as it’s been pointed out, there’s a lot of tarot references since Hickman’s run began. I’m going to break some of them down as the resident ooky-spooky-hallowooky on the forum (I think, maybe there’s more? I dunno). (Also FYI, when referring to the major arcana, that starts with The Fool, which is numbered as 0, and technically the first card in the major arcana... the magician is card 1, but second in the deck. Also I have The Fool card tattooed on my arm. Take from that what you will)

Anyway.

So first off, we have Powers of X #1, in which the card Magician, The Tower, and The Devil appear when Moira is talking to Charles.

So, this is a standard three card spread. Card readers use this because it’s versatile— it can mean past, present and future of a situation, depending on the question asked of the cards, or it could be read as an immediate present; an opportunity; and a threat.

In the context of this issue, and the cards all showing characters that exist in the future, I think we can almost just read this as a general spread, rather than either of the above: this isn’t answering a question, and whilst on a superficial level, YES, these cards ARE just relating to Rasputin, The tower that Nimrod lives in, and Cardinal, but let’s go a bit deeper.

The magician is a card that’s full of promise. As the second card of the major arcana of the tarot, this card is all about self-empowerment and action. It’s about gathering your energies and going forth, and the knowledge that everything that you need to begin whatever path you’re on is within you. This card features Rasputin, and could very well just be the implication that the Chimeras are... full of powers. Hm. This card can also be interpreted as a caution against over-confidence.

So card two is the tower, which is the seventeenth card in the major arcana. Unexpected upheaval is the key phrase here. This is a change that can be forced on a person, or one that springs out of necessity or due to situations out of the control of the person that the reading is for. Whilst it isn’t a card that people love to see in their readings, it’s also one that implies that change is necessary, and can often be interpreted as something that, whilst, at the time, seems chaotic and overwhelming, can also lead to a new status quo— this can be a personal breakthrough if you allow it to be. In context of the story? This is clearly talking about the tower of Nimrod, and that due to the actions of the Mutants, and the human/machine alliance, that Nimrod is looking to not only bring down the Mutants, but also to create a status quo of order— war is chaotic and the tower is the symbol by which he wants to create order.

And finally... the devil. Sixteenth card in the major arcana. This cars often indicates toxic relationships, addiction, negative social environments etc. When this card turns up in a reading it’s asking you to realise that there’s a situation that you’re potentially ignoring because you’re not looking close enough at it, and aware that it’s not a good situation to be in, you’re literally treating it as “better the devil you know”. Oddly, it can also be a really good card if you’re due to get married. Some decks replace this card with one called “Chains”, but it’s basically the same thing: something it feels like you can’t escape from. In terms of the story? We know that the Cardinals are pacifists... perhaps it’s an implication that they feel like they HAVE to stay in this constant state of battle, despite the fact that they’re not suited to it, due to how they came to be.

If I were to interpret this reading?

The person this reading is for is full of energy, and highly self-motivated, but need to realise that this energy and this motivation could cause them to create a chain of events in which massive upheaval is certain. The problem being, that whatever changes they cause, they are then almost certainly going to HAVE to stick with, no matter how toxic or painful it may be.

Now. Doesn’t that just sound like the overarching story so far?

EDIT: I’ll look through and see if I can see any other overt tarot references later, just thought I’d start with this one :)
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by _Rick_ » 09 Mar 2020, 17:40

This is really interesting Das. I confess that I know next to nothing about this subject but I've always been a bit curious. I spotted some of the cards (like the ones I pointed out in the other thread) but beyond the quick description online, I have no ideia how to interpret the meaning, if any. I do think Tiny Howard in particular is pilling up the references in Excalibur (even to the detriment of the plot at times) so it would be interesting to get your thoughts on those. One thing that caught my eye was the scene with Rogue and Rachel in wolf/dog form. Seems like it was constructed to be a reference to something but couldn't figure out what.

Also, in regards to the tower, it should be added that Hickman also loves his biblical references and Nimrod and a tower are probably linked with the tower of Babel. Krakoa having a similar tower is probably not a coincidence either.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by das_boot » 09 Mar 2020, 17:49

Oh, absolutely. There’s a ton of references that just keep coming to me, especially the Quiet Council and how they could potentially link to the court cards of the minor arcana too.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I genuinely think that SOKE of the references in Excalibur could be just people looking for things that aren’t there— but it’s a magical title? So maybe. Also, Excalibur being the name of the magical English sword, and the events of that title happening largely within the myth of the UK, should we, realistically, EXPECT to see swords without the potential tarot link? Absolutely.

Also if anyone wants a tarot reading, feel free to slide into my DMs and I’ll see what I can do, but promise no level of accuracy whatsoever 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Lavettye » 09 Mar 2020, 18:31

Some versions of the Ace of Coins/Ace of Pentacles drawings have a hedge maze entrance in the background that resembles a Krakoa gate.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by das_boot » 09 Mar 2020, 18:37

Depending on how much of a deep-dive this thread becomes, i’d, for now, class that as a coincidence or simply an artistic influence, although that card DOES mean “new and prosperous beginnings” and Krakoa is supplying the Mutants with those in abundance... it sits on the “maybe” pile for now.
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Aeon » 09 Mar 2020, 18:37

I have the vibe that Kate is somehow involved in this story.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by _Rick_ » 09 Mar 2020, 18:39

das_boot wrote:
09 Mar 2020, 17:49
Oh, absolutely. There’s a ton of references that just keep coming to me, especially the Quiet Council and how they could potentially link to the court cards of the minor arcana too.
Never though of that. It actually makes a good deal of sense. Looking online at the class/faculties associated with each suit (and please correct me if I'm missing something)

Emma/Shaw/Kitty - Merchants - Material possessions - Coins/Diamonds
Jean/Storm/Nightcrawler - Clergy - Emotions and love - Cups/Hearts
Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse - Nobility and military - Reason - Swords/Spades
Sinister/Exodus/Mystique - Artisans - Creativity and will - Wands/Clubs

The last group doesn't seem to fit as nicely as the others. Exodus would work better in the clergy perhaps. I could see it as a loose inspiration though (with the last 3 maybe being added because of plot reasons).
das_boot wrote:
09 Mar 2020, 17:49
Now, don’t get me wrong, I genuinely think that SOKE of the references in Excalibur could be just people looking for things that aren’t there— but it’s a magical title? So maybe. Also, Excalibur being the name of the magical English sword, and the events of that title happening largely within the myth of the UK, should we, realistically, EXPECT to see swords without the potential tarot link? Absolutely.
Oh... I agree with that. I know I was the one that brought it up and presented multiple possible panels but some of the stuff I saw on twitter seemed forced. Perhaps it just flew over my head but I don't understand why Jamie was pegged as the King of Swords for instance. Just because he wears occasionally a white gown? If anything I would peg him as something related to Cups since they often have him holding one but even that could be a stretch.

However some panels just seem too on the nose. Specially the ones that seem out of place in the plot/story.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by norwichchris » 09 Mar 2020, 19:13

Could not one of the cards possibly refer to Wanda as mutants pretty view her as pure evil, think she is involved in the story somehow as she did the most harm to mutants.

The tower of babel myth is humanity tried to build a tower to reach god so god punished them by giving them multiple languages think of a skyscraper. In case anyone didn't know.

The mutants do seem to have a bit of a god complex at present so maybe they get hammered down hard.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Nu-D » 09 Mar 2020, 21:36

Thanks for this, Das.

I always thought Tarot worked kind of like the I Ching: You select several cards (three?) at random, and depending on the order and combination a fortune can be discerned.

But your phrases “standard three card spread” and “readers use this” makes me think maybe the selection of the cards isn’t where fate/chance/fortune are introduced? So I guess I don’t even really understand the concept.
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by das_boot » 09 Mar 2020, 22:12

Some spreads are three, some are six, some are 13, some are more 🤷‍♂️ It depends how much information you want, I guess.

The way I was taught, I shuffle the deck until I feel it’s right, and then pick the cards that I feel are right out of the deck and turn them over. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Interpretation is usually the same though, as you can’t REALLY change the meanings of the cards

Edit: the cards are shuffled and I suppose if you want to use the terms fate or destiny, that would come in where the cards are selected
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by tokenBG1009 » 10 Mar 2020, 07:29

Thanks for this, booty. Was exactly what I was looking forward to and I can't wait to read more!
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Nu-D » 10 Mar 2020, 12:58

das_boot wrote:
09 Mar 2020, 22:12
Some spreads are three, some are six, some are 13, some are more 🤷‍♂️ It depends how much information you want, I guess.

The way I was taught, I shuffle the deck until I feel it’s right, and then pick the cards that I feel are right out of the deck and turn them over. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Interpretation is usually the same though, as you can’t REALLY change the meanings of the cards

Edit: the cards are shuffled and I suppose if you want to use the terms fate or destiny, that would come in where the cards are selected
So, the I Ching was historically considered an “oracle.” The chance element of tossing the sticks led you to read a particular passage, which would predict your fate/destiny.

I read it differently, as an introspective exercise. The chance element directs you to one of several very abstract ancient poems containing wisdom. You use it as a focus for reflection on how it applies to your life. You could just as easily read them in order, or just flip to a page, or use a random number generator, or have a friend pick one for you. The essence, for me, is just something wise and deep to reflect your life back at you.

Your take on Tarot sounds maybe a little more like the latter, but there’s also an element of the “reader” having some special insight into the “readee”? If I understand correctly, when you “pick cards you feel are right,” (a) picking them without knowing what they are (face down, shuffled), and (b) your “feel” for which cards to pick is a special talent you’ve trained through your spiritual/religious practice? (Pardon me if I’m using the wrong language, just trying to understand).
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Mar 2020, 13:32

I f***ing love this forum lol
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Nu-D » 10 Mar 2020, 14:31

Nu-D wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 12:58
das_boot wrote:
09 Mar 2020, 22:12
Some spreads are three, some are six, some are 13, some are more 🤷‍♂️ It depends how much information you want, I guess.

The way I was taught, I shuffle the deck until I feel it’s right, and then pick the cards that I feel are right out of the deck and turn them over. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Interpretation is usually the same though, as you can’t REALLY change the meanings of the cards

Edit: the cards are shuffled and I suppose if you want to use the terms fate or destiny, that would come in where the cards are selected
So, the I Ching was historically considered an “oracle.” The chance element of tossing the sticks led you to read a particular passage, which would predict your fate/destiny.

I read it differently, as an introspective exercise. The chance element directs you to one of several very abstract ancient poems containing wisdom. You use it as a focus for reflection on how it applies to your life. You could just as easily read them in order, or just flip to a page, or use a random number generator, or have a friend pick one for you. The essence, for me, is just something wise and deep to reflect your life back at you.

Your take on Tarot sounds maybe a little more like the latter, but there’s also an element of the “reader” having some special insight into the “readee”? If I understand correctly, when you “pick cards you feel are right,” (a) picking them without knowing what they are (face down, shuffled), and (b) your “feel” for which cards to pick is a special talent you’ve trained through your spiritual/religious practice? (Pardon me if I’m using the wrong language, just trying to understand).
Or maybe to put it another way, if I understand correctly, you know which cards to pick because of your spiritual discipline, but when picking them you don’t know what cards they are (I.e. you haven’t looked at the face)?

Is that right?
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Lavettye » 10 Mar 2020, 14:53

As far as I know, it's the "readee" who draws the cards, not the "reader/interpreter".... but of course, they might be one and the same person when the Tarot interpreter does a reading for themselves.
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by das_boot » 10 Mar 2020, 16:38

Before I pick up any of these very solid questions, here’s another piece of potential tarot references.

So. Krakoa’s quiet council is split into four courts.

Autumn with Magneto, Xavier and Apocalypse
Winter with Mystique, Exodus and Sinister
Spring with Emma, Sebastian Shaw and Kitty
Summer with Nightcrawler, Jean and Storm

I previously mentioned the Major Arcana, but I believe that the quiet council of Krakoa could be an analogue to the court cards of the Minor Arcana— four suits of cards made of 10 numbered cards and four court cards— ace to ten and then page, Knight, queen and king. The suits are wands/staves, coins/pentacles, cups and swords. Perhaps predictably, they have elemental affiliations. Wands are associated with fire, coins with earth, cups with water, and swords with air... and this also stretches to seasons too, with wands being associated with spring, cups with summer, coins with autumn, and swords with winter. I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this.

SPRING COURT/WANDS
So if we’re drawing direct comparisons here, with all three of these characters starring in the title about the fledgling medicine/flower trade amongst other things, it makes sense that they’d be on the Spring Court, which, as symbolised by wands, usually relates to ambitions, goals, dreams etc; but importantly the BEGINNING of them. These cards mostly deal with how a person should channel their energy to manifest their potential into being... basically “great that you have this drive, yo, but do something about it”.
In terms of court cards, whilst it may seem obvious at first glance, Emma is definitely represented by the Queen of Wands. This card describes someone who is attractive, vibrant, and also domestic. That last adjective becomes somewhat clearer when you realise that this women’s priority is family, and she will do ANYTHING to protect her family. It often also indicates a woman who has survived and overcome great trauma.

Kate is the page of wands. This card describes someone who is passionate and visionary, someone who is a loyal friend but expects loyalty in return, and perhaps most tellingly, someone who is currently undergoing huge changes in their life.

Now here’s something really interesting: I was GOING at I state that Shaw must be the king of wands: HOWEVER, looking at his current character arc, I would say that he shares the role of Queen with Emma— he’s doing what he’s doing to solidify his family and following on Krakoa and we know he’s a dangerous enemy. He’s the dark side of the same card— the queen of wands reversed.

To this end, if this is right, I’d predict that whilst Emma and Shaw are racing for supremacy of their court, NEITHER of them are going to ultimately end up the ruling party— Kate’s card is all about change and about personal growth: she may well ascend to take the mantle of king of wands/ the true power behind the Spring Court.

SUMMER COURT/CUPS

This suit corresponds to emotions, specifically those of love and friendship, and it’s no surprise therefore that the three arguably most compassionate members of the X-Men are on this court.

Jean is represented by the Queen of Cups. Often described as someone very empathetic and implies great psychic powers. Ordinarily a loving and compassionate person, who loves to be surrounded by family and friends and sees herself as a nurturing and healing presence— HOWEVER, she does also have somewhat of a dark side, and if pushed she can become aggressively defensive.

Kurt is the King of Cups. Diplomatic and open-minded, the King of Cups is someone who is seen as dignified and a real pillar of his community— but with some deep-seated insecurities that can often hold him back and create moments of self-doubt and dark introspection.

Storm is the Page of Cups. One of the most emotional of the cards in this suit, she loves to see the beauty in all things and revels in spending time in nature. Whilst not someone who naturally gravitates towards conflict, she would do anything to protect her family and friends, and LORD HELP anyone who angers her.

Whilst Jean’s in X-Force, Storm’s in Marauders and Kurt’s in... a few panels now and again... it’s hard to see where this influence extends in their story at the moment... but these are the Mutants who SHOULD be appealing to the emotional core of the Krakoans.

AUTUMN COURT/COINS

The focus of this suit is the material: home, finance, business. With Xavier running businesses selling the Krakoan medication and running diplomatic missions to other countries, this makes sense... kind of?

Steady and entrepreneurial, Xavier is the King of Coins. This is a man who comes across as incredibly calm and steady... but who prioritises the stability of his family and friends and business above all other things.

Magneto is the reversed Queen of Coins— this is someone who’s identity has become so entwined with that of his children (the mutant race) that it’s the cause of most of his inner turmoil and attachment issues. Whilst a man capable of great love, he’s also capable of great rage.

Apocalypse is the reversed Knight of Coins. Someone who typically only has a couple of close friends, this is someone who is stubborn and persistent to a fault. The standard definition of this card is someone who is trustworthy to a fault... so a reversed version of this card tells us that we absolutely should NOT trust Apocalypse.

WINTER COURT/SWORDS

This is the card of action, change, intellect and conflict. They address both the constructive and destructive capabilities within us all.

Sinister is the reversed King of Swords. This card tells of someone consumed by analysis, emotionally distant, and more able to see things that others wouldn’t. Cold, data-oriented and bound only to his own sense of what’s just or fair.

Mystique is the Queen of Swords. Experienced and knowledgable, this woman is sharp, she’s perceptive, and she absolutely will not miss a beat. It can also be interpreted as a woman who is a widow, and is struggling to work through this, and alienates people.

Exodus is the Knight of Swords. The keywords here are forceful and determined, someone who is considered a force to be reckoned with, but for whatever reason, manages to be his own greatest obstacle oftentimes.

This is the Court that I foresee (not via the tarot 😂)the most conflict within, as well as who’ll cause the most conflict for the rest of the council. Mystique has her own agenda and it’s become clear from other sources that so does Sinister. This suit of the deck is ALL. ABOUT. CONFLICT. And I suspect that’s exactly what this court are here to do.
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Nu-D » 10 Mar 2020, 17:34

Das, that’s awesome. Thank you.
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by norwichchris » 10 Mar 2020, 17:48

Blackcyclops wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 13:32
I f***ing love this forum lol
I too love this forum you learn something new everyday! :D :D :D :D

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Magnus » 11 Mar 2020, 00:41

I still can't decide if there are actually tarot references all over the places in Dawn of X or if you guys have just been doing too much cocaine and are grasping at straws. :)

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by das_boot » 11 Mar 2020, 01:14

Magnus wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 00:41
I still can't decide if there are actually tarot references all over the places in Dawn of X or if you guys have just been doing too much cocaine and are grasping at straws. :)
I thought that at first too, but actually, with an event coming up that’s literally titled after a tarot card (and one with a very powerful message) I’m seeing more and more links.

Disclaimer: I suspect perhaps if I’m right about the courts, that Hickman’s gone more simple in that he’s just going for a King/Queen/Knight pattern, I’m simply pointing out how much these patterns seem to match up to someone who knows tarot 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by _Rick_ » 11 Mar 2020, 01:37

Jordan D White has mentioned that X of swords is somethings that originates from stuff Tini Howard and Jonathan Hickman have been seeding in their books (he gave particular emphasis on Howard). Hickman said that the allusion to the Tarot cards are very intentional and are weaved into the story and credited Howard as well for the stuff.

I don't think it's a leap to notice that stuff in Excalibur at the very least. With that said, I don't know how deep they're going with it. It might just be some inspiration based on the aesthetics of the cards. It could be something deeper that takes into consideration what Das has been saying. Still I think it would be fun to look for clues.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Mar 2020, 11:35

Do me a tarot reading Das.
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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by norwichchris » 12 Mar 2020, 22:04

Does anyone think Wanda will have a role in this? she has caused the most pain to mutants second only to Cassandra Nova.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Aeon » 12 Mar 2020, 22:08

norwichchris wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 22:04
Does anyone think Wanda will have a role in this? she has caused the most pain to mutants second only to Cassandra Nova.
A showdown between Wanda and most of the Krakoans is unavoidable in the future. I mean, Ranger Exodus is already peparing his Boy Scouts of Krakoa for that.

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Re: Tarot card references in Dawn of X

Post by Blackcyclops » 12 Mar 2020, 22:33

norwichchris wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 22:04
Does anyone think Wanda will have a role in this? she has caused the most pain to mutants second only to Cassandra Nova.
This thread is about Tarot card references...
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