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Astonishing and Whedon opinion

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manuel_mc89
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Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by manuel_mc89 » 26 Feb 2019, 15:01

So I just read this opinion on Twitter:

"Rereading Whedon's Astonishing X-Men is super cringe worth these days.

It oozes creep.

The "writer self insert of Colossus so they can bone Kitty" thing is a trope that can go away...

I look back on the last 20 years of X titles and my only thought is that I miss Claremont."

And after that, they said:

"an the Kitty and Emma can't get along because Whedon can't write two women in the same room without them being catty bitches to each other is maddening.

Yes, Emma Frost is a bitch. But she doesn't have to be this hyper sexual only here to bang Cyclops bitch."

I know that Whedon's reputation has been tarnished somewhat, and for good reason in some cases, but I can't say that I agree, how is Astonishing creepy, and I thought Emma's portrayal was very good, she wasn't overly sexual, unless you count the very first issues, she really is the most complicated character in the run, alll of them, except for Wolverine and Beast, go through a lot of changes.

What do you guys think? Where is the creepiness?
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Blackcyclops » 26 Feb 2019, 15:50

Of all the times to criticize Emma not getting along with a woman, I think the Kitty one is the one place where I gotta call foul. Their relationship has been fraught from jump...they have to rub each other the wrong way. I mean why would a person like Emma get along with Kitty? I don’t even hate Kitty but I know for a fact she’d get on my nerves and I’m not as smart, witty or shady (in the current vernacular) as Emma.

There’s like a handful of X-Men ( as far as the adults go) I think would actually get along with kitty and maybe like 4 x-women (Jean, Storm, Rachel and prolly like Jean). That’s just a poor example, I don’t know if that’ll be a consensus but I stand firmly on that one.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Jazzkantine » 26 Feb 2019, 15:57

Blackcyclops wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 15:50
I don’t even hate Kitty ...
You should, you should. Feel free to hate her, you have all our support. :lol:
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by manuel_mc89 » 26 Feb 2019, 16:51

And on the other hand, somone like Kitty has legitimate reasons to be distrusful of Emma, she was the first villain she met, right there on her first appereance, she along with Firestar (who was really tormented by evil Emma) i can see not trusting Emma. I mean, Emma was the central piece of a whole arc, and a mystery from like the second one, hers and Kittys encounter was my favourite, and the best ass kicking that Emma has received, so she wasnt just Cyclops arm candy.
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Magnus
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Magnus » 27 Feb 2019, 06:20

I've been meaning to re-read Whedon's Astonishing run so this'll be something to keep in mind I suppose, though at first glance it seems like that opinion is bogus. I don't see how the heck Colossus can be a self-insert.

FWIW I'm about halfway through watching Firefly for the first time and none of the three main female characters are catty with each other.

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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Anna Raven » 27 Feb 2019, 14:41

I always had a fairly neutral opinion about Whedon until Astonishing X-Men. People told me how amazing this guy was and I just didn't see it. I thought the whole idea behind Buffy was ridiculous. I binged Firefly with some friends and my general impression was this is very mediocre tv, why are you guys so in love with it?

Then Astonishing X-Men. Boy it had its ups and downs. The Colossus reveal was pretty cool I thought. His Wolverine was one-note but had some funny one liners. I despised the Emma/Scott romance at the time but that wasn't his fault, still I just wasn't into that.

About the points they specifically bring up, I think saying he self inserted himself for Colossus is silly. If anything the fans do that, and the writers are just giving the fans what they want when it comes to romances.

Re: Kitty and Emma, I thought he nailed this one. Kitty is supposed to hate Emma, going back to the Hellfire Club stuff. This was on point.

Emma was written well by Whedon, but I still hated her. But I think that was the point. To me she was the character you loved to hate. And I started to feel a grudging respect for her after this era of Morrison/Whedon.

Nonetheless, Astonishing ended in the overall negative column for me. Two things really sealed it. One Kitty flying away on a magic bullet was just beyond farcical. I to this day, do not understand how any editor approved that idea. I know it's science fiction, but come on, this is the worst kind of tripe, one that no rational person could believe. Secondly, and I saw it coming at the time, but had no idea how bad it would eventually get, Whedon began the process of ruining Beast. His descent into a pompous, self-centered ass began in the pages of Whedon's Astonishing X-Men and fir some reason, writers ran with it.

I came out of the Astonishing run DESPISING Whedon. Since then he's redeemed himself a tiny bit because of his MCU contributions, but I still don't get the overall love for this guy.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by RingOtaku » 27 Feb 2019, 15:30

I wasn't a fan of Whedon before Astonishing and his run didn't improve my opinion of his writing. I don't agree with the Twitter post that these issues are cringe-worthy or creepy. Just not my thing.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Nu-D » 27 Feb 2019, 19:14

Anna Raven wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 14:41
Re: Kitty and Emma, I thought he nailed this one. Kitty is supposed to hate Emma, going back to the Hellfire Club stuff. This was on point.

Emma was written well by Whedon, but I still hated her. But I think that was the point. To me she was the character you loved to hate. And I started to feel a grudging respect for her after this era of Morrison/Whedon.
Agree with this, wholeheartedly. Not so much the rest.

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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by das_boot » 27 Feb 2019, 19:47

Now, as a Whedon fan...

I said at the time (and was admonished for this) but his X-Men read EXACTLY like various characters from his own creations. Kitty sounded exactly like Buffy. The cuckoos were channelling Anya with every sentence with their weirdly stilted bluntness. Blindfold sounded a LOT like River. Emma was bluntly pragmatic with a side of bitchy, like Lyla. I couldn’t help but read Agent Brand sounding like Zoe. I realise this could be my Joss bias, but then I realised it isn’t. It’s the same with his MCU stuff, his characters all have very similar voices.

I hated how Astonishing ended. I genuinely believe that delays here, for whatever reason, ruined this series. Kitty didn’t appear in any of the large crossovers that happened between the penultimate and final issue of Astonishing which telegraphed the ending, and it’s difficult to say that this was JUST due to art issues given that his run on Runaways was similarly delayed.

Was there character progression? Sure. We got Blindfold and Armour and Agent Brand, The Breakworld and Danger. Colossus returned from the dead to get back with Kitty and then lose her... it’s a re-tread of familiar ground with these characters. If he had brought back Jean just to kill off Scott, that would have met with far more outcry among the fandom, so other than her being awful, why didn’t it illicit a larger response from fans?

There were bright spots. A lot of the dialogue (whilst 100% inspired by his own creations) was punchy, fun, and in character. I loved Ord as a truly menacing villain, until he was taken down in seconds by Colossus. Danger was amazing and gave more fuel to the “Xavier is a dick” fire (which was positively an inferno already). I loved the scenes where the X-Men were having a telepathic conversation whilst also talking aloud, which he’d done earlier in the series with Emma giving Logan and Beast telepathic directions, but it’s something I don’t think many writers have touched upon before, which is how bloody weird it must be to anyone who isn’t one of the people privy to a telepathic conversation to see one happening, or how confusing it must be to try and have that conversation plus a verbal one at the same time...

He added a LOT to the Marvel universe, and with some of those characters being large players in events after his run, I think it’s hard to criticise his writing— these are characters who have easily and readily been insinuated into other stories, by other writers, and in other franchises too.

It wasn’t a terrible run by any stretch, but nor was it able to maintain the momentum built by the first two story arcs. ‘Danger’ in particular was an absolute masterclass in how to set up a dangerous villain, defy the expectations of the reader, and then expose a larger threat. He was the writer that first cemented that Scott truly loved Emma and it wasn’t just a rebound or an affair continued out of guilt...

I’d give it a 6.5 out of 10. Nowhere near as brilliant as Carey’s run nor as cerebral and cinematic as Morrisson’s run, and very difficult to place time-wise due to the breaks in between issues...
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by EphemeristX » 27 Feb 2019, 20:17

I thought Whedon's Astonishing run was more universally praised at the time, especially here on the boards. Maybe I'm just remembering things wrong. I remember being grumpy about the whole thing because of the reversion post-Morrison and the weird up-in-the-air Kitty status, like literally having her show up in issue one of a crossover then vanishing for the rest of it. What the hell was that?

Anyway, it's interesting to see 10+ years added on to a run and see its impact.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Blackcyclops » 27 Feb 2019, 20:25

There are some bright spots for me as a Cyclops fan and Emma fan...but as far as that era of books from the 2000s (not 2010s) it falls in the middle of the road overall upon looking back. Maybe it's worth going back to the 2000s more fully...*thread idea*
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by das_boot » 27 Feb 2019, 21:07

I couldn’t be paid enough to re-read Chuck Austen’s work
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Magnus » 27 Feb 2019, 23:54

EphemeristX wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 20:17
I thought Whedon's Astonishing run was more universally praised at the time, especially here on the boards. Maybe I'm just remembering things wrong. I remember being grumpy about the whole thing because of the reversion post-Morrison and the weird up-in-the-air Kitty status, like literally having her show up in issue one of a crossover then vanishing for the rest of it. What the hell was that?

Anyway, it's interesting to see 10+ years added on to a run and see its impact.
I wasn't here at the time but I remember the reception being similar to das_boot's take - it was solid if unspectacular, with good moments and dialogue (what Whedon's probably best at, IMO) but retread a lot of old ground and the second half of his run petered out after a strong first half.

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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Blackcyclops » 28 Feb 2019, 00:08

I think Kitty’s magic bullet save is out there (but really NOt that crazy but everybody has different lines) but I love the last two or 3 issues of that run where Cyke’s plan comes together.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by AntiBody » 28 Feb 2019, 00:50

I thought his run was great. That Twitter person needs a nap.

The Kitty/Emma stuff was electric, Danger was an awesome villain, and his Cassandra Nova plot was so very much in line with what Morrison set up - I got chills when I saw that page with her and Armor. The run may have had some weak moments, but I agree with all above who said that he furthered the X-Line in creative and long-lasting ways.

He's rightfully paying for his actions these days, but damn, be reasonable. Like Magnus said, none of the lead women in Firefly are catty to each other. And as far as Emma being there "just to bang Cyclops," I remember her flattening Danger in diamond form and me screaming out loud.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Jazzkantine » 28 Feb 2019, 00:57

AntiBody wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 00:50
And as far as Emma being there "just to bang Cyclops,"
Thank god I did not say that this time.. :lol:
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Flapflop » 28 Feb 2019, 14:18

manuel_mc89 wrote:
26 Feb 2019, 15:01
So I just read this opinion on Twitter:

"Rereading Whedon's Astonishing X-Men is super cringe worth these days.

It oozes creep.

The "writer self insert of Colossus so they can bone Kitty" thing is a trope that can go away...

I look back on the last 20 years of X titles and my only thought is that I miss Claremont."

And after that, they said:

"an the Kitty and Emma can't get along because Whedon can't write two women in the same room without them being catty bitches to each other is maddening.

Yes, Emma Frost is a bitch. But she doesn't have to be this hyper sexual only here to bang Cyclops bitch."

I know that Whedon's reputation has been tarnished somewhat, and for good reason in some cases, but I can't say that I agree, how is Astonishing creepy, and I thought Emma's portrayal was very good, she wasn't overly sexual, unless you count the very first issues, she really is the most complicated character in the run, alll of them, except for Wolverine and Beast, go through a lot of changes.

What do you guys think? Where is the creepiness?
Seems like these guy'/girl's opinion you mention is filled with feminism and #MeToo sentiment interpreting everything wrong.

I loved Astonishing run. Worthy follow up for Morrison but als bring X-men back to their roots and core as well. Love the characters and interaction between them. It also has one of the best lines ever in X-men history:

“Everything is so fragile. There's so much conflict, so much pain...you keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize this is it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along--that weird, unbearable delight that's actual happy--I think you have to grab it while you can."

Only problem i have its almost out of canon because the delays made it hard to put it chronically somewhere with the rest of the stories at the time.
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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by Juggernaut » 28 Feb 2019, 22:31

I was a huge Buffy fan and this was the first series I started buying issue by issue. I loved a lot of the run but kitty did channel a Buffy vibe. It also delivered some very fun comic book moments. The part where ord thinks Lockheed is behind him just for it to be Colossus is classic whedon. It did start petering out in the end but I thought he got everyone's voices pretty well. I also love the kitty, Emma dynamic. There are just some people in life that you may have around but you will never trust. Plus whedon was kind enough to put a few extra quips in like wolverine telling kitty not to go ninja on him. It felt like I was reading a TV series which I'm sure is why opinions are so different. I also dont understand why the writer thought whedon was being sexist. I thought he did a good job of showing Emma as strong and a very capable second in command.

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Re: Astonishing and Whedon opinion

Post by manuel_mc89 » 28 Feb 2019, 23:21

oh i remember the anger in the board due to the delays, it truly was ridiculous, like the books had to move on, the X-Men were literally in San Francisco already, and there was no mention of Kitty, so we all knew something had happened, and i believe Colossus actually dealt with some lost in an issue of Uncanny. The delays really, really hurt the story.

I remember it more fondly though, i loved the dialogue, particularly the Emma Frost lines, i mean i used this series panels when i want to make someone like her. "Astonished Miss Pryde", its a great ending to their realtionship.
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