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Who is the "traitor"?

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Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Flapflop » 24 Aug 2018, 08:28

In Adamantiurm Agenda #4 Tony Stark (Iron Man) found out that, without actually knowing who, one of the X-Men isnt a mutant but a human masquerading as one. If he or she is a spy, traitor or just lying isn't stated (yet)

It can be anyone. But someone (to) new would probably be cheap and have no impact, someone to old probably will get a lot of fans upset, especially if handled not careful.

When will we know, don't know, though the X-men Dissassembled storyline in the Uncanny X-men relaunch this november seems fitting.

But until that we can already try to predict/deduct:

- 'Traitor' has to be a human, altered to look like a mutant.
- His or her power set has to be technological, medical or biological designed explained as well (because he or she was created, not born with the powers).
- Are there already some hints in recent or even very into the past issues?
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Cable » 24 Aug 2018, 14:21

Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was just Deadpool and they didn't know his backstory?

I feel like Wolverine Returns: Dead Ends is where we likely find out the answer. The minis are meant to have story beats that culminate in that issue. If it was something big for Disassembled I feel it would not be buried in the 4th issue of one of 4 miniseries. Plus Taylor is not involved in Extermination or Disassembled.

And if it is something happening in a Wolverine one-shot, it almost certainly is not a major character.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Nu-D » 24 Aug 2018, 14:43

I haven’t read it, but couldn’t the traitor be someone who replaced a legit X-Man, like a human posing as Kitty or something? Does it have to be someone whose whole story is retconned?

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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Aug 2018, 15:24

It could be. It just says there's a sleeper agent made to look like a mutant. There's a lot of ways this could go down.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Magnus » 24 Aug 2018, 15:38

Nu-D wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:43
I haven’t read it, but couldn’t the traitor be someone who replaced a legit X-Man, like a human posing as Kitty or something? Does it have to be someone whose whole story is retconned?
That was my thought as well - it's not that someone has always been an X-Man, but someone who was just abducted and replaced last week/month/year (or whenever Sinister gathered these samples).

Did we ever get an explanation in Gold why Colossus' powers were on the fritz?

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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Aug 2018, 15:39

I thought it was psychosomatic. Colossus is totally the type.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by XtremeOne1 » 24 Aug 2018, 15:41

Is Dead End just a one shot?

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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Cable » 24 Aug 2018, 16:02

XtremeOne1 wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:41
Is Dead End just a one shot?
Yes, there was a one-shot to begin Hunt for Wolverine, then the minis, and now a one-shot to conclude them.
Magnus wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:38
Nu-D wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:43
I haven’t read it, but couldn’t the traitor be someone who replaced a legit X-Man, like a human posing as Kitty or something? Does it have to be someone whose whole story is retconned?
That was my thought as well - it's not that someone has always been an X-Man, but someone who was just abducted and replaced last week/month/year (or whenever Sinister gathered these samples).
I would say the context of the revelation would make this almost certainly not the case. The context is Mr. Sinister having the DNA of everyone on Earth and highlighted that someone in the X-Men is not really a mutant. There are ways of explaining this away, like a) Sinister is lousy at genetics and so doesn't get that this isn't what the DNA of that person should be, or b) Someone, presumably Soteira, can remove someone and then replicate their DNA with 99% accuracy yet inexplicably not the part that is their powers and has to fudge that.

From a storytelling perspective the possible excuses for a bait-and-switch are so lousy that we should assume this revelation is to be taken at face-value: someone on the X-Men has genetically always been human and but tampered with to be given mutant powers (thus my reference to Deadpool as this is exactly his backstory, though he wouldn't be considered a member of the X-Men by anyone I don't think)

Note this must also imply it is not a long-term member or we run into the "Sage" problem. That is she was revealed to always be a Hellfire Club mole but this seems silly as in her appearances she never did anything useful. Likewise why would Soteira plant a mole a long time ago and then have them do nothing but be a good X-Man until just now? I think it must be a recent addition.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Aug 2018, 16:18

I agree with cable’s observation on things...but it doesn’t have to be a super-recent addition like Triage or Goldballs.

The revelation as Cable pointed to was apart of a mini-series from a series of 4 of them with each one impacting the lives of people Wolverine care about (Laura, Psylocke, Daken, and Wolverine himself) and all connected to Soteria. I highly doubt it’s meant to be a long-serving X-Man with a Sage problem but also not someone like Gabby or Trinary. The person will probably have a connection to Wolvie as well.

ALthough I wouldn’t be shocked if it is a swap-out story where someone was switched out and replaced by a human with powers. Then there’s the possibility that the traitor, so to speak, doesn’t know they’re a traitor. Manchurian X-candidate so to speak...
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Nu-D » 24 Aug 2018, 16:22

Cable wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 16:02
XtremeOne1 wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:41
Is Dead End just a one shot?
Yes, there was a one-shot to begin Hunt for Wolverine, then the minis, and now a one-shot to conclude them.
Magnus wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:38
Nu-D wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:43
I haven’t read it, but couldn’t the traitor be someone who replaced a legit X-Man, like a human posing as Kitty or something? Does it have to be someone whose whole story is retconned?
That was my thought as well - it's not that someone has always been an X-Man, but someone who was just abducted and replaced last week/month/year (or whenever Sinister gathered these samples).
I would say the context of the revelation would make this almost certainly not the case. The context is Mr. Sinister having the DNA of everyone on Earth and highlighted that someone in the X-Men is not really a mutant. There are ways of explaining this away, like a) Sinister is lousy at genetics and so doesn't get that this isn't what the DNA of that person should be, or b) Someone, presumably Soteira, can remove someone and then replicate their DNA with 99% accuracy yet inexplicably not the part that is their powers and has to fudge that.

From a storytelling perspective the possible excuses for a bait-and-switch are so lousy that we should assume this revelation is to be taken at face-value: someone on the X-Men has genetically always been human and but tampered with to be given mutant powers (thus my reference to Deadpool as this is exactly his backstory, though he wouldn't be considered a member of the X-Men by anyone I don't think)

Note this must also imply it is not a long-term member or we run into the "Sage" problem. That is she was revealed to always be a Hellfire Club mole but this seems silly as in her appearances she never did anything useful. Likewise why would Soteira plant a mole a long time ago and then have them do nothing but be a good X-Man until just now? I think it must be a recent addition.
The idea of a “sleeper agent” is one who does not actively spy or betray their subject until a specific event or plan goes into action. Sleeper agents are in place to be called on later. So if it’s well done, you could make that work.

Do we know when Sinister got his samples? Couldn’t it be that he got a sample from the spy recently, after the spy replaced someone who is a genuine X-Man?

Anyhow, the idea that Sinister has a database of all human & mutant genomes in the world is silly. Hundreds of thousands of people are born and die every day. Keeping the database up to date would take a global government size beaurocracy.

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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Cable » 24 Aug 2018, 16:34

Nu-D wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 16:22
Cable wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 16:02
XtremeOne1 wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:41
Is Dead End just a one shot?
Yes, there was a one-shot to begin Hunt for Wolverine, then the minis, and now a one-shot to conclude them.
Magnus wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:38


That was my thought as well - it's not that someone has always been an X-Man, but someone who was just abducted and replaced last week/month/year (or whenever Sinister gathered these samples).
I would say the context of the revelation would make this almost certainly not the case. The context is Mr. Sinister having the DNA of everyone on Earth and highlighted that someone in the X-Men is not really a mutant. There are ways of explaining this away, like a) Sinister is lousy at genetics and so doesn't get that this isn't what the DNA of that person should be, or b) Someone, presumably Soteira, can remove someone and then replicate their DNA with 99% accuracy yet inexplicably not the part that is their powers and has to fudge that.

From a storytelling perspective the possible excuses for a bait-and-switch are so lousy that we should assume this revelation is to be taken at face-value: someone on the X-Men has genetically always been human and but tampered with to be given mutant powers (thus my reference to Deadpool as this is exactly his backstory, though he wouldn't be considered a member of the X-Men by anyone I don't think)

Note this must also imply it is not a long-term member or we run into the "Sage" problem. That is she was revealed to always be a Hellfire Club mole but this seems silly as in her appearances she never did anything useful. Likewise why would Soteira plant a mole a long time ago and then have them do nothing but be a good X-Man until just now? I think it must be a recent addition.
The idea of a “sleeper agent” is one who does not actively spy or betray their subject until a specific event or plan goes into action. Sleeper agents are in place to be called on later. So if it’s well done, you could make that work.

Do we know when Sinister got his samples? Couldn’t it be that he got a sample from the spy recently, after the spy replaced someone who is a genuine X-Man?

Anyhow, the idea that Sinister has a database of all human & mutant genomes in the world is silly. Hundreds of thousands of people are born and die every day. Keeping the database up to date would take a global government size beaurocracy.

No we don't know when and it is possible after a swap but again how do you reconcile Sinister not getting that this is not the right DNA for that person? He knows all about genetic manipulation. Unless he does know and didn't write this down but he really should take proper notes. I just don't think Taylor and/or Soule are being that cheap by setting something up like that and then making it a trick with some excuse.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Wings » 24 Aug 2018, 16:40

Sinister might well have known, either through being directly responsible or not wanting to act on what he'd discovered until he had more information. He's got no reason to give the X-Men a headsup.

My bet is still Shadowcat. It has to be one of the X-Men featured in the minis for it to have impact.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Magnus » 24 Aug 2018, 16:50

Yeah, I might be missing something, but Cable, why do you think Sinister made a mistake? I figured he probably knew (or at least, his program that catalogues it did, not clear if he had to do it personally by hand or if it was automated) but as Wings says he has no reason to let the X-Men know. Tony just caught a glimpse of it but didn't have time to see the name. Like if he's looking at a huge spreadsheet and notices over on the right side there's a note from Sinister that says "btw this person isn't a real mutant" but he didn't have time to look over to the left column to see whose name it was attached to before they had to blow it up.

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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Aug 2018, 17:55

Yeah agreed with Magnus...

But in a world of time travel, Sinister using any number of superscience to have an ongoing policy of collecting small dna samples isn’t that farfetched. Of course given that they only glimpsed it, its reasonable to think he has an incomplete library but big enough that for all intents and purposes it’s complete.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Cable » 24 Aug 2018, 18:37

Magnus wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 16:50
Yeah, I might be missing something, but Cable, why do you think Sinister made a mistake? I figured he probably knew (or at least, his program that catalogues it did, not clear if he had to do it personally by hand or if it was automated) but as Wings says he has no reason to let the X-Men know. Tony just caught a glimpse of it but didn't have time to see the name. Like if he's looking at a huge spreadsheet and notices over on the right side there's a note from Sinister that says "btw this person isn't a real mutant" but he didn't have time to look over to the left column to see whose name it was attached to before they had to blow it up.
It is just the way it is written. I realize my argument kind of rests on whether Sinister takes crappy notes or not (I don't know what you guys mean by giving the X-Men a heads up; this is his personal system and not meant to be seen by anyone else). But from what was said we can estimate it did not say (to use Shadowcat as an example):

Shadowcat: NO DATA
Mystery Person A: I don't know who the #%$* this person is but they are masquerading as Shadowcat with phony DNA

Rather it said something like:

Shadowcat: I have this sample and Katherine Pryde is a human whose DNA is manipulated to make her look like a mutant.

By using the framing device of Sinister and the genetic database they seem to intentionally not go the vague route of saying there is a sleeper agent and then making us guess whether someone has been replaced by a Skrull or a robot or the reanimated corpse of Changeling (Soteira has been shown to be able to bring back the dead so this could really happen!) but rather say there is a DNA match to this person and so it really is them and they really are not a mutant all along.

Maybe I am overestimating the authors but I think they have purposefully written a better revelation than just a cliche swap story.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Aug 2018, 19:00

The way I read it was that Stark saw the database and when he looked at the supposed mutant/X-database he found that one X-Man wasn’t a mutant...so like Magnus said it was like he saw one side of a spreadsheet but not the other.

Now Stark frames it as a traitor but really all he saw was that someone isn’t the type of superhuman they might believe themselves to be. Whether this person is a sleeper, double agent, or unwilling dupe, swap or otherwise isn’t know yet...
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by das_boot » 24 Aug 2018, 19:02

Either that or with it being Sinister and a scientist at heart, I imagine it was probably phrased along the lines of:

“Subject A’s genetic modification has gone undetected by the X-Men. Infiltration: successful. Continue to monitor over time and assess when best to use asset”.

This way not only does he keep the subject anonymous should something like, for example, a team of heroes enter his lab and access his records, but it just feels more appropriate for Sinister to see a person as a subject rather than... well. A person.

Looking at Sinister’s history, this could literally be a number of characters, but my guess would be someone in the Grey/Summers family tree. Perhaps even Hope.

Realistically, I think it has to be someone who joined the team after the Legacy Virus. With the virus attacking the X-Gene specifically, and Beast monitoring everyone’s genetic structure to find a cure at that point, it just makes sense that they would have joined in an era where someone with weird powers who didn’t get them by space rays or nuclear explosions or radioactive arachnids would have just been accepted as a mutant, also eliminating them having joined post-Terrigen Cloud because an Inhuman could have easily claimed mutant status. It would also have to be someone who hasn’t been scanned by a Sentinel... or we have to accept that this modification is so intrinsically perfect in its subterfuge that even a rigorous genetic test or the accurate sentinel scans would register them as a mutant.

That said... my money’s still on Hope, or someone who’s been cloned
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Aug 2018, 19:21

Ooh, I actually like the idea of it being Hope. It gives the character something to do, and she's weird enough that it makes sense. Also, the impact is big enough that it matters, yet I don't think anybody would actually be mad about the change because something was always off about her.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Aug 2018, 19:27

But it doesn’t look like Sinister was the one behind this...
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by EphemeristX » 24 Aug 2018, 19:43

I think alot of assumptions are being made. Tony found information in Sinister's database that says an X-Man is not a mutant. Tony drew the assumption that they may have a sleeper agent.

"The X-Database was heavily encrypted, but I saw another fragment before it was destroyed. I found something in the DNA of an X-Man, but I don't know who the DNA belonged to."
"What did you find?"
"One of the X-Men... isn't a mutant."
"What?"
"Someone's been genetically altered to appear to be a mutant. I think the X-Men have a sleeper agent."

We know the database belongs to Sinister, and that Soteira was behind the killsquad that attacked the scientists. We also know that the database had been recently copied, and it's likely that Soteira is who copied it.
Further, we know an X-Man has been altered to appear to be a mutant.

That's it.

Everything else is assumptions and suppositions, on the characters' parts and on our parts.
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Aug 2018, 20:09

Yeah only reason I think Soteria is behind it is because they are the ones behind everything so far...
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Flapflop » 27 Aug 2018, 08:30

Cable wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:21
Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was just Deadpool and they didn't know his backstory?

I feel like Wolverine Returns: Dead Ends is where we likely find out the answer. The minis are meant to have story beats that culminate in that issue. If it was something big for Disassembled I feel it would not be buried in the 4th issue of one of 4 miniseries. Plus Taylor is not involved in Extermination or Disassembled.

And if it is something happening in a Wolverine one-shot, it almost certainly is not a major character.
Psylockes return to her original body was alo in a HfW mini and can be considered a big thing, so also this storyline can be picked up in one of the ongoing titles
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Blackcyclops » 27 Aug 2018, 10:28

Flapflop wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 08:30
Cable wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:21
Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was just Deadpool and they didn't know his backstory?

I feel like Wolverine Returns: Dead Ends is where we likely find out the answer. The minis are meant to have story beats that culminate in that issue. If it was something big for Disassembled I feel it would not be buried in the 4th issue of one of 4 miniseries. Plus Taylor is not involved in Extermination or Disassembled.

And if it is something happening in a Wolverine one-shot, it almost certainly is not a major character.
Psylockes return to her original body was alo in a HfW mini and can be considered a big thing, so also this storyline can be picked up in one of the ongoing titles
Well that’s true but why would this plot point be connected to thr story of Extermination or Uncanny (unless soteria are the bad guys in that book, which seems unlikely given their Logan connection)? Also this is a different kind of plot point...
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Re: Who is the "traitor"?

Post by Cable » 27 Aug 2018, 14:06

Flapflop wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 08:30
Cable wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:21
Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was just Deadpool and they didn't know his backstory?

I feel like Wolverine Returns: Dead Ends is where we likely find out the answer. The minis are meant to have story beats that culminate in that issue. If it was something big for Disassembled I feel it would not be buried in the 4th issue of one of 4 miniseries. Plus Taylor is not involved in Extermination or Disassembled.

And if it is something happening in a Wolverine one-shot, it almost certainly is not a major character.
Psylockes return to her original body was alo in a HfW mini and can be considered a big thing, so also this storyline can be picked up in one of the ongoing titles
The Psylocke thing is a bit different because her body transformation plot was created and then resolved within the mini. She will be different in everything going forward but it isn't an actual hanging thread. I mean I could see how the sleeper agent plot would be picked up somewhere else: maybe Taylor thought there might be people reading this who aren't reading Red so he would drop the mystery here and resolve it there in an upcoming arc. But if that was the case the editors would be doing a pretty poor job because there is nothing directing us. It doesn't say something at the end like "For more on the sleeper agent see the pages of X-Men Red!" or Uncanny or wherever. Wolverine Dead Ends is the only thing we are referred to, so while maybe it isn't resolved there and we don't learn the identity of the fake person until later, you would think the sleeper agent is at least further hinted or referenced in that issue. Then maybe we will be directed somewhere else at the end of that.
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