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Rank the Retcons

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EphemeristX
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by EphemeristX » 21 Aug 2018, 11:33

I'm pretty sure Rogue was always supposed to be a teen or at least young. Artists saw her white temples and just started drawing her old, which is why they moved the white to the center of the forehead.

Emma was most certainly supposed to be closer to the age of Xavier and the other Hellfire Club members. I can see why she was de-aged, though. That 27 line, though, I thought took it too far. She should at least be as old or slightly older than Cyclops. And I know we've all had the aging argument before, but I always thought of Cyke as in his 30s by then.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by das_boot » 21 Aug 2018, 11:43

I always read the “I’m 27, you ungrateful wretches” line as Emma just denying her actual age
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Aug 2018, 11:51

das_boot wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 11:43
I always read the “I’m 27, you ungrateful wretches” line as Emma just denying her actual age
Me too...

As for Rogue, I’m torn on it because I think some writers did intend for her to be younger but in the Dazzler comic she def felt older...
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by das_boot » 21 Aug 2018, 14:02

I definitely think Rogue got de-aged when she became a hero, but then that seems to be somewhat of a theme— Banshee was drawn older before he joined the X-Men, and with Emma and Rogue too... perhaps it’s a visual cue that evil people are haggard because of all the evil they do?

One retcon that I actually liked and made sense in hindsight, even though it was another Xavier character assassination moment... the Legacy reveal of Xavier telling Rogue that he wouldn’t fix her power until she’d proven herself to the X-Men. Admittedly, Xavier was under the influence of the Brood Queen at that point (I think?), and he and Rogue didn’t actually serve on a team together for very long, but I weirdly liked this retcon. It kind of felt like Xavier pulling this on someone who, recently, almost single-handedly took down the Avengers (and a powerful team of Avengers at that), as well as someone who had systematically and vindictively gone after one X-ally in Dazzler, and ruined the entire life of another in Ms Marvel... but he still wanted to offer her some help, albeit with the caveat of having to prove that she was ‘worthy’ of it.

In retrospect, it explains quite a lot about Rogue’s sudden and dramatic shift— she was never particularly a morally grey character, she literally went from villain to hero almost overnight, and over the years has been one of the most solid members of the X-Men who’s been willing to place herself in serious danger in order to “do the right thing”. It’s almost like Xavier’s speech to her, as well as him never getting round to actually helping her hit her that hard that she was always willing to toe the line and do what was asked of her (and in some cases go above and beyond)— as well as why, unlike most other ‘former villains turned heroes’ she’s never wavered in returning to her villainous ways— it’s like she assumed that because Xavier never fixed her power, she had never really proven herself, and it also explains why, when she was given the chance to lead a team, she surrounded herself with either true-blue heroes, or people with a morally chequered (or in some cases absolutely deplorable) pasts.

Quite why she never asked someone like Jean, Psylocke or Cable to try and help her with her powers is beyond me, but there we go...
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Nu-D » 21 Aug 2018, 19:54

Claremont/Cockrum explicitly kept Sean close to Xavier’s age. Though he may have de-aged, it was not at the time he transitioned from villain to hero.

I haven’t read Rogue’s pre-Uncanny appearances, but it’s my understanding she was portrayed as older. I don’t know how explicit that was. Once she arrives in Uncanny, Claremont has Kitty say Rogue is just barely older than she is. I do think that’s a significant retcon.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by MartijnB » 21 Aug 2018, 19:58

Let me throw in the very recent de-aging of Proteus. Proteus has to be my favourite monstrous mutant villain and the fact he recently stated he was a child during his first appearance instead of the young adult they said he was at the time only makes his character more poignant. I liked it.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Aug 2018, 19:59

Idk, Banshee looked like a man in his 50s in his first appearances. But as he became an x-Man he definitely looked younger than that. And by the time he was drawn by Lee he looked younger than that. By GenX I think he was back to being older than the rest of the NextGen and O5 X-Men and stayed the way until now...he’a never been made to appear like he’s a contemporary of Kitty or Colossus or even Cyclops
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Nu-D » 21 Aug 2018, 20:13

Blackcyclops wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 19:59
Idk, Banshee looked like a man in his 50s in his first appearances. But as he became an x-Man he definitely looked younger than that. And by the time he was drawn by Lee he looked younger than that. By GenX I think he was back to being older than the rest of the NextGen and O5 X-Men and stayed the way until now...he’a never been made to appear like he’s a contemporary of Kitty or Colossus or even Cyclops
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Aug 2018, 20:38

I never said he never looked older, I’m saying as he went along got deaged...just look at page 3 of his spotlight on here, you see that by the time he’s hanging with Moira he looks below 50s.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Nu-D » 21 Aug 2018, 20:48

And I never said he didn’t de-age, only that it didn’t correspond with his transition to heroism.

Moreover, in my eyes, None of Byrne’s characters look “older.” The only characteristic in a Byrne drawing to suggest age is small/skinny=adolescent, grey hair=older. Everyone else, including Xavier, look ambiguously between the ages of 25 and 45.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Spectral Knight » 21 Aug 2018, 21:06

I've never felt Banshee was particularly de-aged. Hell he's got a twenty something daughter, and was a former Interpol agent with years of experience in the field. At a guess I'd have put him somewhere between the late 40s and mid 50s.

The problem is when artwork is generally portraying extremely well conditioned adult men unless you go for the obvious grey temples of a Reed Richards portraying age can be quite tricky. Sean was even gifted facial hair in Gen X which is another common trait to artificially age a character as if a hipster beard can't be found on twenty something ;)
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Gremlin » 21 Aug 2018, 23:03

The Draco was just atrocious. Making Nightcralwer's father a demon didn't progress the character, in fact it cheapened him a bit.

Of all of Xavier retcons I dislike Deadly Genesis the most simply because it really skews existing continuity. Stuff like Sage and Danger can be slotted in with little issue, but DG literally says an older story is wrong. The story itself is problematic and no other writer really touched upon the Krakoa revelations there.

I rather liked that it was revealed Pixie, Lady Mastermind I and II were Mastermind's daughters. It really empahsises that Jason Wyngard was a total creep. Whilst it was never said he used his powers to seduce their mothers into bed it was extrapolated and fits in with his obsession with Phoenix. However with Pixie is required a little retcon is required as her mother and father had already been mentioned. The only irritating this is the fact her real mother is a fairy. Aside from the Pixie Strikes Back mini this hasn't been mentioned again.

Touching on the LGBT thing. A lot of characters such as Iceman, Rictor and Shatterstar could be retroactively made gay and the pieces fit, I always had issue with Karma. Don't know why. It just felt like Marvel wanted more LGBT characters and Karma was an easy retcon as she hadn't had any romantic interest before that and she was secondary enough that people wouldn't really kick up a fuss at the time. I'm watching Magik closely as I really don't want them to suddenly say she's in love with Kitty. If anything I'd be down for Magik being asexual.

Sage's "oh yeah I was a secret X-Man thing" again feels forced. She was a spy in the Hellfire club but actually did very little in hindsight.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Aug 2018, 06:26

Gremlin wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 23:03
Sage actually did very little in hindsight.
Fix'd it for you.

I think the only weird thing about Bobby's revelation is they use the "he's had multiple failed relationships" as an explanation that he was closeted. A lot of the X-Men have had multiple failed relationships. I can only think of a few that have had constant relationships or haven't been with multiple people. Plus two of Bobby's relationships end because Alex keeps stealing his girl. Another one was with Mystique who was doomed to turn on him. And then there's Kitty who's just the worst and was doomed to fail because his name isn't Peter.

I don't know how else they'd have reconciled his past relationships, but it feels really flimsy when a lot of the time his "failed relationships" aren't really his fault.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by das_boot » 22 Aug 2018, 09:22

tokenBG1009 wrote:
22 Aug 2018, 06:26

I don't know how else they'd have reconciled his past relationships, but it feels really flimsy when a lot of the time his "failed relationships" aren't really his fault.
A lot of the time they aren’t, but at the same time... how much fight did he put up? Other than Polaris, the Kitty thing he just seemed to be very much like “yeah okay it’s done”. From my point of view it’s more that he either intentionally or subconsciously went for women who were obviously unavailable, emotionally. The fact that the relationships failed wasn’t his fault, I think (and again from my personal experiences and those of people that I know who’ve lived Bobby’s life), I can see a lot of those decisions in Bobby’s dating life, and see those reflected in my friends who’ve gone through similar things— they went for emotionally unavailable people, or long distance relationships despite having barely known one another, or someone who they just knew was going to be bad for them... literally walking into a relationship that was always going to fail because if EVERYONE knew it was going to fail, you never have to explain anything because it’s always assumed to be the other person’s fault

Totally agree with whomever it was saying that they think Magik is asexual. I don’t even remember her ever thinking that a guy or girl was attractive.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Magik84 » 22 Aug 2018, 09:34

Related to Iceman thing, anyone read iZombie, where they do a similar thing with Spot, who pines after main character Gwen, but subconsciously choosing her because she's unavailable.

I find it funny if you read X-Men 1 now and all the guys are falling over Jean Grey and Bobby's like "meh girls". Also I would say yeah other characters have failed relationships that doesn't mean they are gay, but reading Iceman's relationships knowing he's gay fits fine.

Aging stuff is hard because of sliding timescale and different artist interpretations.

Draco, yes that was terrible. I like Sage as a charater but yeah she was bad spy!
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Aug 2018, 11:04

I'm actually fine with Bobby's reveal as gay, but it's always been that that kind of irked me. It's hard for me to have a real opinion though as I honestly don't know any gay people outside of the members of this forum so I have no one to relate my views on Bobby with in real life.

Draco was universally terrible. I really want to meet the person who thinks it's good. Which, funny enough, I know someone who probably would like it, but he also thinks The Last Airbender movie was good so his taste is garbage.

Sage I actually like as an idea, but I've slowly come to realize she's kind of a nothing character.

I wish they'd leave Bishop's story alone and stop giving him someone to fight in the present to prevent his future. It was fine as Onslaught. It didn't need to be Hope and it doesn't need to be the next super powerful mutant.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 22 Aug 2018, 12:32

Well the Bishop thing isnt really a retcon though since it’s always been his thing...granted the Hope thing was a retcon but him having a new one would just be a new story beat but not a retcon.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Nu-D » 22 Aug 2018, 13:17

tokenBG1009 wrote:
22 Aug 2018, 06:26
Gremlin wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 23:03
Sage actually did very little in hindsight.
Fix'd it for you.

I think the only weird thing about Bobby's revelation is they use the "he's had multiple failed relationships" as an explanation that he was closeted. A lot of the X-Men have had multiple failed relationships. I can only think of a few that have had constant relationships or haven't been with multiple people. Plus two of Bobby's relationships end because Alex keeps stealing his girl. Another one was with Mystique who was doomed to turn on him. And then there's Kitty who's just the worst and was doomed to fail because his name isn't Peter.

I don't know how else they'd have reconciled his past relationships, but it feels really flimsy when a lot of the time his "failed relationships" aren't really his fault.
If Bobby had been able to satisfy “his girls” maybe Alex wouldn’t have been able to “steal” them.

I don’t like the possessive language above, but it gets to a point I think is consistent with the retcon. The women were unhappy in their relationships with Bobby. Prior to the retcon, it was usually attributed to his immaturity. But post-retcon, the immaturity becomes a symptom of his repressed homosexuality. He’s not really committed to an adult relationship with these women because none of them feel right to him. He doesn’t know why it’s not right because he’s not even out to himself. But he acts immature because of his unconscious discomfort.

I think from a birds eye view of Bobby’s life and character, you can make the retcon fit pretty well. I think if you zoom in to a panel-by-panel view, it’s hard to square with some bits here and there. But frankly, I think it’s impossible for anything new to be written about 55 year old characters that doesn’t sit uncomfortably next to some old pages here and there. This is no worse than some of the changes in character Xavier’s been through, or that time Scott abandoned his wife and child in Alaska for a former lover.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 22 Aug 2018, 22:47

I didn't mean anything by using the terms "his girls" or "stole" it was mostly meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by P-90 » 23 Aug 2018, 13:47

Nu-D wrote:
22 Aug 2018, 13:17
tokenBG1009 wrote:
22 Aug 2018, 06:26
Gremlin wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 23:03
Sage actually did very little in hindsight.
Fix'd it for you.

I think the only weird thing about Bobby's revelation is they use the "he's had multiple failed relationships" as an explanation that he was closeted. A lot of the X-Men have had multiple failed relationships. I can only think of a few that have had constant relationships or haven't been with multiple people. Plus two of Bobby's relationships end because Alex keeps stealing his girl. Another one was with Mystique who was doomed to turn on him. And then there's Kitty who's just the worst and was doomed to fail because his name isn't Peter.

I don't know how else they'd have reconciled his past relationships, but it feels really flimsy when a lot of the time his "failed relationships" aren't really his fault.
If Bobby had been able to satisfy “his girls” maybe Alex wouldn’t have been able to “steal” them.

I don’t like the possessive language above, but it gets to a point I think is consistent with the retcon. The women were unhappy in their relationships with Bobby. Prior to the retcon, it was usually attributed to his immaturity. But post-retcon, the immaturity becomes a symptom of his repressed homosexuality. He’s not really committed to an adult relationship with these women because none of them feel right to him. He doesn’t know why it’s not right because he’s not even out to himself. But he acts immature because of his unconscious discomfort.

I think from a birds eye view of Bobby’s life and character, you can make the retcon fit pretty well. I think if you zoom in to a panel-by-panel view, it’s hard to square with some bits here and there. But frankly, I think it’s impossible for anything new to be written about 55 year old characters that doesn’t sit uncomfortably next to some old pages here and there. This is no worse than some of the changes in character Xavier’s been through, or that time Scott abandoned his wife and child in Alaska for a former lover.
'I don't like the possessive language above'

Really? that seems like an unnecessary overreaction, if you were introducing your significant other to someone or were talking to someone about them would you not say 'This is my' or 'I'm his/her'

As for Iceman, I think the whole thing was just completely unnecessary, not only was he a long established character that in over fifty years not once showed an interest in men the way in which it was done was absolutely terrible, also I'm sure I read the writer who did it outright stated he knew it would upset fans (because they don't like the characters they love changed) but did it anyway. I could almost understand it if there were no LGBT characters associated with the X-Men but that's obviously not true, there's North Star and his husband, Karma, Anole, Graymalkin, Bling, Morph, Rictor, Shatterstar, Mystique, Destiny, Hindsight, Prodigy etc.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Magik84 » 23 Aug 2018, 15:52

P-90 wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 13:47
I could almost understand it if there were no LGBT characters associated with the X-Men but that's obviously not true, there's North Star and his husband, Karma, Anole, Graymalkin, Bling, Morph, Rictor, Shatterstar, Mystique, Destiny, Hindsight, Prodigy etc.
I would say there should be no quota on how many LGBT characters there can be and as much as i like a lot of those characters I would say other than Mystique and Northstar they're not very prominent in books, so it is a big deal to have a long term character like Bobby come out.

Looks like I opened a can of worms, Iceman is divisive topic!

Other retcons I preferred Emma Frost original origin she told gen X kids.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 23 Aug 2018, 15:58

I mean that’s kind of the weakest argument against the change...don’t do it because it’s already enough lgbt characters. Like that’s a horrible reasoning to not take action on diversification in just about any situation lol

I can understand the above reasoning from RingO and SK because I can relate to (not personally) people who would behave like Bobby sans them being closeted as well. But he shouldn’t be gay or bisexual because you already got gay/bisexual characters is just...not to be rude or mean...weak sauce lol
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Spectral Knight » 23 Aug 2018, 17:07

Yeah there's certainly no limit on LGBT characters. Which is why certain "coming outs" (a term I actually kinda hate unless there's evidence of a character not wanting their sexuality to be known) have worked fine. Northstar was a great example of a character who was clearly intended to be gay from very early on as was Mystique's bisexuality - even if in both cases editorial oversight of the time wouldn't let it be shown until later, and the latter I don't recall being a particularly clear coming out but just naturally telling more and more of Raven's relationship with Irene.

I do kinda think Bobby's coming out was partly to shock and generate headlines (and sales), and partly to offset some of the discussions about why most of the LGBT characters (of which there's been plenty of new ones) are considered relatively smaller hitters. It's a bit of a delicate situation - there needs to be LGBT representation but there's historically been a gap. Creators over the last ten or fifteen years have added more and more gay or bi characters but few have got A-list exposure. And I don't think the "they're new" argument holds for why these newer characters haven't grown to prominence - other new characters have grown in profile over that time.

I think Bobby's reveal was a little lazy story telling frankly - rather than take the time to develop compelling LGBT characters (either tell better stories and feature those that already exist, or build from scratch) and make them A-Listers, it was "easier" to make an A-Lister gay.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by P-90 » 23 Aug 2018, 17:54

Blackcyclops wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 15:58
I mean that’s kind of the weakest argument against the change...don’t do it because it’s already enough lgbt characters. Like that’s a horrible reasoning to not take action on diversification in just about any situation lol

I can understand the above reasoning from RingO and SK because I can relate to (not personally) people who would behave like Bobby sans them being closeted as well. But he shouldn’t be gay or bisexual because you already got gay/bisexual characters is just...not to be rude or mean...weak sauce lol
That's clearly not what I mean't but thanks for being so open minded :roll:

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by P-90 » 23 Aug 2018, 17:57

Spectral Knight wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 17:07
Yeah there's certainly no limit on LGBT characters. Which is why certain "coming outs" (a term I actually kinda hate unless there's evidence of a character not wanting their sexuality to be known) have worked fine. Northstar was a great example of a character who was clearly intended to be gay from very early on as was Mystique's bisexuality - even if in both cases editorial oversight of the time wouldn't let it be shown until later, and the latter I don't recall being a particularly clear coming out but just naturally telling more and more of Raven's relationship with Irene.

I do kinda think Bobby's coming out was partly to shock and generate headlines (and sales), and partly to offset some of the discussions about why most of the LGBT characters (of which there's been plenty of new ones) are considered relatively smaller hitters. It's a bit of a delicate situation - there needs to be LGBT representation but there's historically been a gap. Creators over the last ten or fifteen years have added more and more gay or bi characters but few have got A-list exposure. And I don't think the "they're new" argument holds for why these newer characters haven't grown to prominence - other new characters have grown in profile over that time.

I think Bobby's reveal was a little lazy story telling frankly - rather than take the time to develop compelling LGBT characters (either tell better stories and feature those that already exist, or build from scratch) and make them A-Listers, it was "easier" to make an A-Lister gay.
Thank you, that's exactly how I feel, and thank you for the non-judgemental response.

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